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Forums - Sony Discussion - PS5 GDC Reveal and PS5 specs/performance Digital Foundry Video analysis : 3.5 Ghz 8 core Zen 2 CPU along with 10.3 TF RDNA 2 RT capable and 16GB GDDR6 RAM and also super crazy fast 5.5 GB/Second S

 

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Pemalite on 27 March 2020
DonFerrari said:
Pemalite said:

It would be more expensive for Sony to take the propriety-memory card approach compared to Microsoft... It has to guarantee twice the bandwidth in a small form factor. - Might even be logistically impossible given current technological trends.

I would assume Microsoft would not be willing to subsidize the cards... If we were to take a look at Microsoft's prior business models in the console space... They usually price the consoles cheaper, then make-up the difference on accessories and games... The OG Xbox for example had the DVD attachment, Xbox 360 had the Wifi Dongle, Detachable HDD, Memory Cards and so on. - The Xbox One was initially priced higher to avoid allot of that.

Xbox Series X could be a return to form on this front.

In saying that, it does mean that there is the potential for larger SSD's in the future as Microsoft's approach to SSD technology isn't as propriety, so they should in theory be able to take advantage in advancements in SSD controller and NAND faster as they become cheaper and/or larger.

Keep in mind these memory cards aren't using a plane-jane NVMe drive, it's in a propriety package... Heck. I don't even know what it's interface bus is yet. (Likely PCI-E based, but the possibility exists for something else.)

My impression from what I see is that the proprietary device for MS doesn't have a controller or anything to save on cost, it will only have chip, package and the connector, everything else will use what is already in the console.

Similar to how Sony will "highjack" the controller of the external SDD with the PS5 controller overhead.

The controller is in the console itself. the memory cards are just a grouping of NAND that interfaces with the onboard controller.

It saves on costs that way... As you will only need a single controller for all your memory cards rather than all your memory cards having a controller.

Not sure I get what you are saying with the PS5?



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

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EricHiggin on 28 March 2020
Pemalite said:
EricHiggin said:

While SNY's SSD tech may be somewhat more expensive than what MS is using, you'd think if a proprietary card was going to be in the same ballpark price wise, that SNY would have gone with that.

To me, SNY saw the price difference for creating something like MS has, and decided it was going to be way too expensive. Not just at launch either. For the effort SNY went to in creating some of the hardware, like the controller for the SSD, why they wouldn't go to the trouble of what MS did with a proprietary card says to me it's price that was the biggest problem.

That's not to say MS's card wouldn't be cheaper right off the bat based on it's tech, and maybe MS is willing to subsidize those cards to some degree. I also can't help but wonder if MS assumes most will just transfer over their existing external HDD's, or upgrade to a larger one based on the much cheaper market prices.

The cost over time also needs to be taken into account. A proprietary card only comes down in price a lot if MS keeps subsidizing it, or if they sell a boat load of consoles, while also convincing many to buy 1 card or more. Mass market gen 4 NVMe's will naturally drop in price much quicker, which also means lower prices, or faster speeds, and higher amounts of storage for the same old price as years go by.

It would be more expensive for Sony to take the propriety-memory card approach compared to Microsoft... It has to guarantee twice the bandwidth in a small form factor. - Might even be logistically impossible given current technological trends.

I would assume Microsoft would not be willing to subsidize the cards... If we were to take a look at Microsoft's prior business models in the console space... They usually price the consoles cheaper, then make-up the difference on accessories and games... The OG Xbox for example had the DVD attachment, Xbox 360 had the Wifi Dongle, Detachable HDD, Memory Cards and so on. - The Xbox One was initially priced higher to avoid allot of that.

Xbox Series X could be a return to form on this front.

In saying that, it does mean that there is the potential for larger SSD's in the future as Microsoft's approach to SSD technology isn't as propriety, so they should in theory be able to take advantage in advancements in SSD controller and NAND faster as they become cheaper and/or larger.

Keep in mind these memory cards aren't using a plane-jane NVMe drive, it's in a propriety package... Heck. I don't even know what it's interface bus is yet. (Likely PCI-E based, but the possibility exists for something else.)

Well the MS/XBSX solution is tiny. Really tiny. I don't see why it couldn't be made the size of a typical SSD 2280 stick. If they don't want it sticking out of the console too much, just make the slot deeper. It would still easily fit in your pocket, and wouldn't get lost as easily. The other option would be to make a proprietary 2280 type stick, that's still internal and as cheap as possible, without the external features. Which still wouldn't be "cheap".

Back then you typically had little option to add third party devices for certain aspects of the console, so you had to buy their product. As long as third party external devices can be plugged into the rear USB 3.? port, that's going to be the go to option for most, even if they split the price difference and get an external SSD. I have a hard time believing that MS won't subsidize those cards to some degree because otherwise they probably won't sell that many. $500 for XBSX and even just $79 for a 1TB SSD expansion card seems nuts, let alone higher yet.

How much advancement will be made using existing hardware though other than when a potential upgrade comes along? Not much was done with storage this gen, even with SSD's being available, though they did help speed things up a little bit. Will MS bother since PS nor MS did last gen? Faster wasn't really a great point on my part now that I think more about it, for either company, other than that PS5 needs a min speed third party NVMe. As for cheaper and larger storage, they both will be able to benefit from that over time, I just see PS5 having the advantage as nothing will be proprietary and won't have a SNY 'tax' on it.



drkohler on 28 March 2020
Pemalite said:

The controller is in the console itself. the memory cards are just a grouping of NAND that interfaces with the onboard controller.
It saves on costs that way... As you will only need a single controller for all your memory cards rather than all your memory cards having a controller.

Pretty much this. I don't know why people say the PS5 ssd solution is "so expensive". We basically have 12 512GBit NAND chips and a proprietary on-board controller. Depending on how proprietary the controller actually is, there could be almost zero royalties to be paid. (Sony having basically reeinvented the wheel). Whenever you use a stock ssd controller, there are boatloads of royalties involved.

I wonder though if you can just add another mass grave of NAND-chips to the internal solution and call it a day, or if you need an ssd with a controller. If it's just a bunch of chips, it has to be made by Sony itself (I don't think anyone else is going to do it, no value in it) but would be "dirt cheap" compared to any off-the-shelf solution.



Pemalite on 28 March 2020
drkohler said:
Pemalite said:

The controller is in the console itself. the memory cards are just a grouping of NAND that interfaces with the onboard controller.
It saves on costs that way... As you will only need a single controller for all your memory cards rather than all your memory cards having a controller.

Pretty much this. I don't know why people say the PS5 ssd solution is "so expensive". We basically have 12 512GBit NAND chips and a proprietary on-board controller. Depending on how proprietary the controller actually is, there could be almost zero royalties to be paid. (Sony having basically reeinvented the wheel). Whenever you use a stock ssd controller, there are boatloads of royalties involved.

I wonder though if you can just add another mass grave of NAND-chips to the internal solution and call it a day, or if you need an ssd with a controller. If it's just a bunch of chips, it has to be made by Sony itself (I don't think anyone else is going to do it, no value in it) but would be "dirt cheap" compared to any off-the-shelf solution.

The SSD controller was likely built in conjunction with another manufacturer... And likely leverages cross-licensing patents.
Sony isn't in the game of designing processing chips from scratch anymore.

And yes, you can double the number of NAND chips and have two chips on each memory interface, bandwidth won't increase, but capacity will double.

Sony's solution is "premium" no doubt about it and is costlier than other implementations, but the reward is significantly higher bandwidth... So in order to reduce costs, they reduced capacities.

EricHiggin said:

Well the MS/XBSX solution is tiny. Really tiny. I don't see why it couldn't be made the size of a typical SSD 2280 stick. If they don't want it sticking out of the console too much, just make the slot deeper. It would still easily fit in your pocket, and wouldn't get lost as easily. The other option would be to make a proprietary 2280 type stick, that's still internal and as cheap as possible, without the external features. Which still wouldn't be "cheap".

Back then you typically had little option to add third party devices for certain aspects of the console, so you had to buy their product. As long as third party external devices can be plugged into the rear USB 3.? port, that's going to be the go to option for most, even if they split the price difference and get an external SSD. I have a hard time believing that MS won't subsidize those cards to some degree because otherwise they probably won't sell that many. $500 for XBSX and even just $79 for a 1TB SSD expansion card seems nuts, let alone higher yet.

How much advancement will be made using existing hardware though other than when a potential upgrade comes along? Not much was done with storage this gen, even with SSD's being available, though they did help speed things up a little bit. Will MS bother since PS nor MS did last gen? Faster wasn't really a great point on my part now that I think more about it, for either company, other than that PS5 needs a min speed third party NVMe. As for cheaper and larger storage, they both will be able to benefit from that over time, I just see PS5 having the advantage as nothing will be proprietary and won't have a SNY 'tax' on it.

Nah.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

DonFerrari on 30 March 2020
Pemalite said:
DonFerrari said:

My impression from what I see is that the proprietary device for MS doesn't have a controller or anything to save on cost, it will only have chip, package and the connector, everything else will use what is already in the console.

Similar to how Sony will "highjack" the controller of the external SDD with the PS5 controller overhead.

The controller is in the console itself. the memory cards are just a grouping of NAND that interfaces with the onboard controller.

It saves on costs that way... As you will only need a single controller for all your memory cards rather than all your memory cards having a controller.

Not sure I get what you are saying with the PS5?

I'm saying that PS5 accepts shelf SSD that have controlers so the controller of PS5 takes overhead of the process, reason why they need more than 5.5Gb/s from the external SSD.

The question would be if Sony or any other company would make SSDs that work only on PS5 (just the nand and connection without any controller) and save costs.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

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DonFerrari on 30 March 2020
EricHiggin said:
Pemalite said:

It would be more expensive for Sony to take the propriety-memory card approach compared to Microsoft... It has to guarantee twice the bandwidth in a small form factor. - Might even be logistically impossible given current technological trends.

I would assume Microsoft would not be willing to subsidize the cards... If we were to take a look at Microsoft's prior business models in the console space... They usually price the consoles cheaper, then make-up the difference on accessories and games... The OG Xbox for example had the DVD attachment, Xbox 360 had the Wifi Dongle, Detachable HDD, Memory Cards and so on. - The Xbox One was initially priced higher to avoid allot of that.

Xbox Series X could be a return to form on this front.

In saying that, it does mean that there is the potential for larger SSD's in the future as Microsoft's approach to SSD technology isn't as propriety, so they should in theory be able to take advantage in advancements in SSD controller and NAND faster as they become cheaper and/or larger.

Keep in mind these memory cards aren't using a plane-jane NVMe drive, it's in a propriety package... Heck. I don't even know what it's interface bus is yet. (Likely PCI-E based, but the possibility exists for something else.)

Well the MS/XBSX solution is tiny. Really tiny. I don't see why it couldn't be made the size of a typical SSD 2280 stick. If they don't want it sticking out of the console too much, just make the slot deeper. It would still easily fit in your pocket, and wouldn't get lost as easily. The other option would be to make a proprietary 2280 type stick, that's still internal and as cheap as possible, without the external features. Which still wouldn't be "cheap".

Back then you typically had little option to add third party devices for certain aspects of the console, so you had to buy their product. As long as third party external devices can be plugged into the rear USB 3.? port, that's going to be the go to option for most, even if they split the price difference and get an external SSD. I have a hard time believing that MS won't subsidize those cards to some degree because otherwise they probably won't sell that many. $500 for XBSX and even just $79 for a 1TB SSD expansion card seems nuts, let alone higher yet.

How much advancement will be made using existing hardware though other than when a potential upgrade comes along? Not much was done with storage this gen, even with SSD's being available, though they did help speed things up a little bit. Will MS bother since PS nor MS did last gen? Faster wasn't really a great point on my part now that I think more about it, for either company, other than that PS5 needs a min speed third party NVMe. As for cheaper and larger storage, they both will be able to benefit from that over time, I just see PS5 having the advantage as nothing will be proprietary and won't have a SNY 'tax' on it.

Accessories are made to make money not to sell the most so it doesn't make sense for MS to subside it.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari on 30 March 2020
Pemalite said:
drkohler said:

Pretty much this. I don't know why people say the PS5 ssd solution is "so expensive". We basically have 12 512GBit NAND chips and a proprietary on-board controller. Depending on how proprietary the controller actually is, there could be almost zero royalties to be paid. (Sony having basically reeinvented the wheel). Whenever you use a stock ssd controller, there are boatloads of royalties involved.

I wonder though if you can just add another mass grave of NAND-chips to the internal solution and call it a day, or if you need an ssd with a controller. If it's just a bunch of chips, it has to be made by Sony itself (I don't think anyone else is going to do it, no value in it) but would be "dirt cheap" compared to any off-the-shelf solution.

The SSD controller was likely built in conjunction with another manufacturer... And likely leverages cross-licensing patents.
Sony isn't in the game of designing processing chips from scratch anymore.

And yes, you can double the number of NAND chips and have two chips on each memory interface, bandwidth won't increase, but capacity will double.

Sony's solution is "premium" no doubt about it and is costlier than other implementations, but the reward is significantly higher bandwidth... So in order to reduce costs, they reduced capacities.

EricHiggin said:

Well the MS/XBSX solution is tiny. Really tiny. I don't see why it couldn't be made the size of a typical SSD 2280 stick. If they don't want it sticking out of the console too much, just make the slot deeper. It would still easily fit in your pocket, and wouldn't get lost as easily. The other option would be to make a proprietary 2280 type stick, that's still internal and as cheap as possible, without the external features. Which still wouldn't be "cheap".

Back then you typically had little option to add third party devices for certain aspects of the console, so you had to buy their product. As long as third party external devices can be plugged into the rear USB 3.? port, that's going to be the go to option for most, even if they split the price difference and get an external SSD. I have a hard time believing that MS won't subsidize those cards to some degree because otherwise they probably won't sell that many. $500 for XBSX and even just $79 for a 1TB SSD expansion card seems nuts, let alone higher yet.

How much advancement will be made using existing hardware though other than when a potential upgrade comes along? Not much was done with storage this gen, even with SSD's being available, though they did help speed things up a little bit. Will MS bother since PS nor MS did last gen? Faster wasn't really a great point on my part now that I think more about it, for either company, other than that PS5 needs a min speed third party NVMe. As for cheaper and larger storage, they both will be able to benefit from that over time, I just see PS5 having the advantage as nothing will be proprietary and won't have a SNY 'tax' on it.

Nah.

Yep future revisions or multi SSD sizes can be offered with the only additional cost being the additional number of NAND =]



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

drkohler on 30 March 2020
Pemalite said:

Sony isn't in the game of designing processing chips from scratch anymore.

And when you wake up Wednesday there will be Sony Electronics Corporation.

Sony Electronics Corporation will incorporate the three businesses that comprise its Electronics Products & Solutions (“EP&S”) segment: Imaging, Home Entertainment, Mobile, all of which deal with designing and making chips from scratch. So it is not inconceivable at all the ssd controller could have been designed (almost) entirely in-house.



Pemalite on 01 April 2020
DonFerrari said:
Pemalite said:

The controller is in the console itself. the memory cards are just a grouping of NAND that interfaces with the onboard controller.

It saves on costs that way... As you will only need a single controller for all your memory cards rather than all your memory cards having a controller.

Not sure I get what you are saying with the PS5?

I'm saying that PS5 accepts shelf SSD that have controlers so the controller of PS5 takes overhead of the process, reason why they need more than 5.5Gb/s from the external SSD.

The question would be if Sony or any other company would make SSDs that work only on PS5 (just the nand and connection without any controller) and save costs.

Nah.

You are putting the PS5's controller to far away from the NAND then... Which increases latency and signal attenuation, consoles are an RF noisy environment.

drkohler said:
Pemalite said:

Sony isn't in the game of designing processing chips from scratch anymore.

And when you wake up Wednesday there will be Sony Electronics Corporation.

Sony Electronics Corporation will incorporate the three businesses that comprise its Electronics Products & Solutions (“EP&S”) segment: Imaging, Home Entertainment, Mobile, all of which deal with designing and making chips from scratch. So it is not inconceivable at all the ssd controller could have been designed (almost) entirely in-house.

Imaging chips isn't the same as building and designing a processor from scratch to control data transfers, perform garbage collection, encryption, handle caching, error detection, error correction, bad block mapping, read scrubbing, wear leveling, compression, decompression, data striping, interleaving and more.

Sony is often leveraging I.P from other companies like ARM to build semi-custom designs... Companies like Sandforce have spent years of R&D building their controllers to the level they are today, someone like Sony or Microsoft isn't just walking in on their first attempt in just a year or two and beating the snot out of everyone.

Plus imaging chips/camera sensors is one of the few success stories Sony has on this front as they get design wins for a large portion of the phone industry, there is a return on investment... A large one.

I stand by that Sony isn't in the game of building processors from scratch anymore, they started to exit that game years ago, even the Playstation 3's Cell wasn't a Sony design.

If you have the evidence that Sony built it's SSD controller from scratch, then feel free to provide... Otherwise it's just conjecture, it doesn't make sense for them to do it... When the rest of the console isn't a Sony design anyway, it was all done in partnership with other companies.

Even the assembly of the console itself is likely to be done in a non-Sony factory, more likely a Foxconn one.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

CrazyGPU on 02 April 2020
the-pi-guy said:
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-playstation-5-the-mark-cerny-tech-deep-dive

https://youtu.be/KfM_nTTxftE

That video shows that frecuency has diminishing returns after a point and the more CUs of XBOX series X will make a difference. I think Sony strategy is pricing.