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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Teraflops are NOT a Measurement of Gaming Performance

DonFerrari said:

Sure it became a snowball, but all the biggest problems of Xbox 1 were solved on the first 6 months, the one that took until this year (exclusives) where were Xbox actually started stronger than PS4.

Yes Xbox 1 would have done much better without all the mistakes that we can agree, but not sure how much it would do without all the issues.

I have to disagree with this statement. The 2:1 sales ratio was already established by the time Kinect was unbundled, so the main reason why Xbox this gen ended up in the position in which it is right now is those launch mistakes. On the other hand, I have to agree that it dropping even lower than 2:1 ratio is the result of awful software output - constant game cancellations, releasing bad 60-70 meta games etc. I personally completely ignored everything except Forza, Gears and Super Lucky's Tale in the second half of the generation. And I must admit that the latter two are hardly can be considered as system sellers nowadays. Gears 5 probably brought the franchise into it's lowest point ever in terms of excitement. When it was released, I've barely seen any discussion about it on the gaming forums. And it was supposed to be the HUGE Xbox game. Unfortunately, even this year is no better. All the games that are coming out are yet another games I'm not interested in. I really hope that situation will change after E3, because Series X will definitely struggle in terms of sales if Microsoft won't fix their software output and make people excited about Xbox games by the time console launches.



 

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DonFerrari said:
sales2099 said:

I remember plenty talk about the power of the CELL from Sony and the community. Multiplats looked better because “devs wouldn’t take the time to master the cell”. A popular line was “360 is now, PS3 is the future” which implied that the Cell would make PS3 future proof.

Clearly the fans care and discuss it online and that’s where this Tflop PR is addressing. I just find a double standard at play where power only matters when it seems the PS console has it.

Yes fans did that.

And there were several publications putting emphasis on the differences between the versions on PS360. Still that didn't make Sony talk about Tflops. And the talk about the power of cell was during the reveal and how it would be used in several other situations (never happen we know).

For me power still matters, only reason I didn't buy X1X is that for me the best games are the PS exclusives and for that the best HW I can use is PS4Pro. And I would prefer PS5 stronger than XSX even if more expensive (I know I'm minority) also have no issue saying X1X is stronger and that difference made it have more 4k games or higher res of most or all multiplats (if not higher that would be devs "fault").

Be that as it may, this PR is simple in concept and geared towards the fans to boost the Xbox image and limit negative internet chatter about Xbox.

Because now everybody is talking about how teraflops don’t necessarily matter instead of how Xbox is weaker like in 2013. I say that’s a PR victory in itself and addresses the people that talk the loudest on the internet. 

Last edited by sales2099 - on 09 March 2020

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last92 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

You should have just said that.

It's evident there was a lot of discussion about Xbox being weaker and it was mostly discussed on the web.

But now that Xbox seemingly has more powerful devices, I'm glad we realized it doesn't really matter.

Well...power wasn't what caused the xbox one to be mocked by all the internet though.

Tv, sports, 100$ price difference, kinect, always online and fee on used games did much more damage to the xbox brand. And then, of course, there was the power difference on top of all that.

In this age of internet, power is far too important, more so than in 6th and 7th generation, because the gaming news will be littered with performance and graphics comparisons, just like the daily news for the xbox and ps4, with the constant 1080p vs 900p, even if the difference is slight, it matters.

Just look at how many topics mention xbox one X power and true 4K and stuff, when in reality games look only slightly better than the Pro.

Power matter, a lot.

Most of the xbox mocking I remember was actually the design of the console, I read gaming news everyday and I remember a lot of people making fun of the xbox looking like a VCR

Looking at the design of the series X, Sony doesn't need to worry in this department, they would really have to mess up to come with a worse design.



Mr Puggsly said:
last92 said:

Well...power wasn't what caused the xbox one to be mocked by all the internet though.

Tv, sports, 100$ price difference, kinect, always online and fee on used games did much more damage to the xbox brand. And then, of course, there was the power difference on top of all that.

Most of that was addressed by launch, I don't think Kinect was even required but still bundled at launch and removed months later.

What didn't change was discussion about the GPU disparity. Either way, I just think its funny the OP cherry picked X1X as where teraflop numbers became a topic. Obviously it started years before with the 8th gen specs.

Wrong, Kinect was removed in 2016, almost 2 years after, not months.

The real teraflop talk in gaming news and with casual gamers only started with Xbox X, before that only hardcore gamers who where looking for it would know.

With the launch of the ps4 and xbox One the talk was resolution, 1080p vs 900, or 900vs 760, teraflops were very rarely talked at all.



victor83fernandes said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Most of that was addressed by launch, I don't think Kinect was even required but still bundled at launch and removed months later.

What didn't change was discussion about the GPU disparity. Either way, I just think its funny the OP cherry picked X1X as where teraflop numbers became a topic. Obviously it started years before with the 8th gen specs.

Wrong, Kinect was removed in 2016, almost 2 years after, not months.

The real teraflop talk in gaming news and with casual gamers only started with Xbox X, before that only hardcore gamers who where looking for it would know.

With the launch of the ps4 and xbox One the talk was resolution, 1080p vs 900, or 900vs 760, teraflops were very rarely talked at all.

https://www.geek.com/games/microsoft-removes-kinect-from-xbox-one-drops-price-to-399-removes-gold-restrictions-1593759/

The general feeling is there was a lot of talk about power even in 2013. This is why MS addressed it with X1X in a big way.

Regardless if people were saying teraflop or resolution, many knew there was a power disparity and it was sometimes exaggerated.



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last92 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Most of that was addressed by launch, I don't think Kinect was even required but still bundled at launch and removed months later.

What didn't change was discussion about the GPU disparity. Either way, I just think its funny the OP cherry picked X1X as where teraflop numbers became a topic. Obviously it started years before with the 8th gen specs.

Well, the price difference was the biggest problem, and that stayed for a few months if I remember correctly.

I agree though that power stayed a relevant topic for a long time. But I still think that wasn't the biggest factor that led to PS dominating the whole gen. That's something only people on the web care about. It's still true, however, that MS has been focusing on power and tflops much more than Sony in the last few years. Looking at PS exlcusives for 2020 and how good they look vs what xbox one x is getting...well, I can't help but wonder if all this focus on tflops really means anything. And looking at xbox one x sales, I really thing that power is one of the least important characteristics, provided the gap is not too big.

Xbox had big issues at launch

1 - All the bad word of mouth about needing online check in every day and not being able to use second hand games

2 - The resolution difference

3 - Forced kinect

4 - Higher price

5 - Weaker hardware

6 - Design of the console with external power pack

7 - No rechargeable controller

8 - UI being too cluttered and complex

9 - PS4 controller was praised for the touchpad, led light and microfone

10 - Non replaceable hard drive

11 - Installs were a mess, I remember a lot of people complaining. On ps4 you inserted the disc and started playing in 30seconds-1 minute, on xbox you had to install the full game first 20-30min, and then you had to download and install the updates, and then you could play. It was a huge mess, furthermore, if you wanted to start the game while not updated you needed to disconnect the internet. PS4 was just way better, you could play any games without updating, never had to mess with the internet settings and so on

12 - People found it weird the discs being in the left side of the cases, never been done before on any console or PC

13 - PS4 had a free game with the online subscription, Microsoft only did the same much later.

And many more complaints

Last edited by victor83fernandes - on 09 March 2020

JRPGfan said:


If theres no drastic bottlenecks to them, and their the same architecture in core design, you CAN absolutely use Teraflops as related to gameing performance.

No you can't.
Because...
It doesn't account for geometry performance...
It doesn't account for 8-bit integer performance...
It doesn't account for 16-bit integer performance...
It doesn't account for 24-bit integer performance...
It doesn't account for 32-bit integer performance...
It doesn't account for 64-bit integer performance...
It doesn't account for 16-bit floating point performance...
It doesn't account for 64-bit foating point performance...
It doesn't account for 8-bit floating point performance...
It doesn't account for fillrate performance...
It doesn't account for Ray Tracing performance...

It doesn't account for a whole lot of a GPU.

If you somehow disagree with that... And still think Teraflops is relevant... Then YOU need to explain why. And I mean "why" with appropriate technical detail... Otherwise your position on this is incorrect and thus illogical. (Then again, I have lost count how many times we have been over this anyway. But I digress.)

JRPGfan said:

Also Architecture to Architecture, you can.
If you take 2 cards that are both GNC, you can compaire them.
Such as the case with the Playstation 4 + Xbox One X.

No you absolutely can't. It will never be Apples to Apples that way.

Even when we use the identical architecture, there is significant deviation.

I.E. With Graphics Core Next AMD doubled the amount of geometry processors in Graphics Core Next 1.2/Hawaii, Hawaii and Tonga also have a geometry front end that was twice as wide as Tahiti's.

What this means is that in heavy geometry scenarios such as games leveraging a significant amount of Tessellation or Polygons, it's going to be 70% faster at the same "Teraflops".

The other optimization that happened is on the opposite side of the rendering pipeline in the Render Output Pipelines... Namely Delta Colour Compression, which meant AMD could reduce the amount of bandwidth by 27% but still hit the same levels of performance... So in an Apples to Apples world, GCN 1.2 and 1.3 parts would have more bandwidth.

The Playstation 4 Pro and Xbox One X have some significant deviations in hardware, which will always make them directly non-comparable... The Xbox One X has the crossbar memory controller, it also has the command processor which offloads some CPU tasks.

SvennoJ said:

Ah yeah the memory speed war. Adding ESRAM speeds to DDR3 speed at the start of last gen to make it look closer to PS4.

However if everything else is the same it is a use-able measure. If rumors are true

Except...
We don't know if everything is the same.

And even in the Playstation 4 Pro vs Xbox One X's case... The Xbox One X is non comparable, despite the fact it's GCN... It's still using GCN that is substantially more modern and thus more capable... And also had some semi-custom touches to bolster performance.

SvennoJ said:

Series X is 3x Lockhart and 1.3x PS5
PS5 is 2.3x Lockhart (about the same difference as ps4 pro to base ps4)

Of course XBox One had other benefits compared to ps4, as well as the ps4 pro had to ps4.
It will be a weird start of a new gen if all these rumors are true.

XBox One X was 4.2x XBox One with other improvements as well. And that had games running in native 4K (or very close) on XBox One X while the XBox One was struggling below 1080p with other things turned down as well. So maybe 3x difference is enough for 1080p vs 4K. PS4 pro couldn't get past 1440p vs 1080p ps4 with 2.3x increase (plus boosted cpu)

It's a shame no matter how you look at it. The pro machines were just used for higher resolution, which Lockhart seems to pass on to the new generation with its existence.

Changes in resolution changes bottlenecks in the underlying hardware.

Developers were sacrificing visual fidelity chasing the 4k dream.

JRPGfan said:

Playstation 5 + Xbox Series X, are BOTH confirmed to be useing RDNA 2.

Its about 50% more effecient in terms of Performance/watt, than a RDNA1 card is, according to AMD.

This means, that even if Playstation 5, uses less power on the GPU than a current 5700XT card does, it could beat it in performance.

I say wait before we count our chickens. We don't know how such a GPU would perform in say... Ray Tracing which is the big next-gen feature.

JRPGfan said:


Huh?

They will be Ryzen 2, 8core.
Also their rumored to run like 3,2Ghz....

Thats not "low end"


Ryzen is currently beating Intel at Mhz vs Mhz right?
This means that if you take a equal cpu from intel, thats 8cores, and also clocked at 3,2ghz it would be slower.

Not everyone buys a Intel -K part, and overclocks to 5ghz.

This is "quite" a beefy CPU imo, esp compaired to the slow jaguar cores that were inside the current Playstation 4 / Xbox One X.

It's mid range.
Ryzen 8-cores will start to push in the low-end probably with Zen 4 at 5nm... AMD is already throwing 8 Zen cores into notebooks now.

sales2099 said:

Because now everybody is talking about how teraflops don’t necessarily matter instead of how Xbox is weaker like in 2013. I say that’s a PR victory in itself and addresses the people that talk the loudest on the internet. 

Not everybody. A few in this thread are still clinging to the hopes and dreams that Teraflops do matter... Examples above for instance.

victor83fernandes said:

With the launch of the ps4 and xbox One the talk was resolution, 1080p vs 900, or 900vs 760, teraflops were very rarely talked at all.

They were talked about on this forum rather heavily.

Last edited by Pemalite - on 09 March 2020

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Mr Puggsly said:
DonFerrari said:

Sure they were, every gen fans are louder than the companies.

How did it worked if it didn't diminish the gap on sales on PS4 and X1?

That feels like a lazy response. "Uhm... I know, I'll talk about sales! Derp, so clever!" Sales vs specs, eh?

PS4 fans boasted they get better ports and that grew with PS4 Pro. But then X1X came and that console often had better ports, more 60 fps experiences, more 4K experiences, etc. Suddenly talk about specs just got a little less important. Hence, I'm happy with my X1X even with PS4 selling better.

Nope, you said "MS boasted power given that seemed important and it worked" ... if it didn't addressed the gap in sales how did it worked? I swear many people in VGC say MS doesn't do what it do for console warriors but to improve its bottom line, so if you don't have evidence of it improving sales how did it work?

derpysquirtle64 said:
DonFerrari said:

Sure it became a snowball, but all the biggest problems of Xbox 1 were solved on the first 6 months, the one that took until this year (exclusives) where were Xbox actually started stronger than PS4.

Yes Xbox 1 would have done much better without all the mistakes that we can agree, but not sure how much it would do without all the issues.

I have to disagree with this statement. The 2:1 sales ratio was already established by the time Kinect was unbundled, so the main reason why Xbox this gen ended up in the position in which it is right now is those launch mistakes. On the other hand, I have to agree that it dropping even lower than 2:1 ratio is the result of awful software output - constant game cancellations, releasing bad 60-70 meta games etc. I personally completely ignored everything except Forza, Gears and Super Lucky's Tale in the second half of the generation. And I must admit that the latter two are hardly can be considered as system sellers nowadays. Gears 5 probably brought the franchise into it's lowest point ever in terms of excitement. When it was released, I've barely seen any discussion about it on the gaming forums. And it was supposed to be the HUGE Xbox game. Unfortunately, even this year is no better. All the games that are coming out are yet another games I'm not interested in. I really hope that situation will change after E3, because Series X will definitely struggle in terms of sales if Microsoft won't fix their software output and make people excited about Xbox games by the time console launches.

It took between 6 months to 12 months for Kinect to be unbundled and Xbox to always sell at same price or smaller (and in USA it was selling close to PS4 since begining). PS3 had price disadvantage for the whole gen and still managed to outsell Xbox 360.

Sure the reveal had a lot of impact on Xbox sales, but it everything was corrected either before launch (all except of price+kinect) and kinect was solved within first year that isn't the excuse or real reason X1 sold so much less than PS4 and this will be quite clear this gen. Xbox to sell close to PS needed Sony making everything wrong and MS almost everything right, otherwise we will see PS 2:1 to Xbox since outside of USA+UK the margin will be kept and on those two places the swing back without Sony making several mistakes shouldn't be that big.

sales2099 said:
DonFerrari said:

Yes fans did that.

And there were several publications putting emphasis on the differences between the versions on PS360. Still that didn't make Sony talk about Tflops. And the talk about the power of cell was during the reveal and how it would be used in several other situations (never happen we know).

For me power still matters, only reason I didn't buy X1X is that for me the best games are the PS exclusives and for that the best HW I can use is PS4Pro. And I would prefer PS5 stronger than XSX even if more expensive (I know I'm minority) also have no issue saying X1X is stronger and that difference made it have more 4k games or higher res of most or all multiplats (if not higher that would be devs "fault").

Be that as it may, this PR is simple in concept and geared towards the fans to boost the Xbox image and limit negative internet chatter about Xbox.

Because now everybody is talking about how teraflops don’t necessarily matter instead of how Xbox is weaker like in 2013. I say that’s a PR victory in itself and addresses the people that talk the loudest on the internet. 

You can say whatever you want, doesn't change that MS started the focus on Tflops and also that last gen they were the ones talking about specs the whole time while Sony only showed their games.

Also the ones that are saying Tflops don't matter from the start of the rumors are the likes of Pemalite, CGI-Quality and a handfull others, and they are either multiplatform or PC first. So not really anything to do with the MS PR.



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DonFerrari said:
Mr Puggsly said:

That feels like a lazy response. "Uhm... I know, I'll talk about sales! Derp, so clever!" Sales vs specs, eh?

PS4 fans boasted they get better ports and that grew with PS4 Pro. But then X1X came and that console often had better ports, more 60 fps experiences, more 4K experiences, etc. Suddenly talk about specs just got a little less important. Hence, I'm happy with my X1X even with PS4 selling better.

Nope, you said "MS boasted power given that seemed important and it worked" ... if it didn't addressed the gap in sales how did it worked? I swear many people in VGC say MS doesn't do what it do for console warriors but to improve its bottom line, so if you don't have evidence of it improving sales how did it work?

You got me, this was clearly a sales debate. Clearly anything MS does that doesn't close the sales gap is ultimately pointless.

Remember guys, if MS does anything good like making a fantastic piece of hardware like X1X. All you have to do is say, "b... b... but did it close the sales gap!?!?" You'll always win a debate that way. Even when it's completely irrelevant to the discussion.



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victor83fernandes said:
last92 said:

Well, the price difference was the biggest problem, and that stayed for a few months if I remember correctly.

I agree though that power stayed a relevant topic for a long time. But I still think that wasn't the biggest factor that led to PS dominating the whole gen. That's something only people on the web care about. It's still true, however, that MS has been focusing on power and tflops much more than Sony in the last few years. Looking at PS exlcusives for 2020 and how good they look vs what xbox one x is getting...well, I can't help but wonder if all this focus on tflops really means anything. And looking at xbox one x sales, I really thing that power is one of the least important characteristics, provided the gap is not too big.

Xbox had big issues at launch

1 - All the bad word of mouth about needing online check in every day and not being able to use second hand games

2 - The resolution difference

3 - Forced kinect

4 - Higher price

5 - Weaker hardware

6 - Design of the console with external power pack

7 - No rechargeable controller

8 - UI being too cluttered and complex

9 - PS4 controller was praised for the touchpad, led light and microfone

10 - Non replaceable hard drive

11 - Installs were a mess, I remember a lot of people complaining. On ps4 you inserted the disc and started playing in 30seconds-1 minute, on xbox you had to install the full game first 20-30min, and then you had to download and install the updates, and then you could play. It was a huge mess, furthermore, if you wanted to start the game while not updated you needed to disconnect the internet. PS4 was just way better, you could play any games without updating, never had to mess with the internet settings and so on

12 - People found it weird the discs being in the left side of the cases, never been done before on any console or PC

13 - PS4 had a free game with the online subscription, Microsoft only did the same much later.

And many more complaints

Most of your list has validity.

But seriously, #9? I can't get behind that one.

#12 is minor, not a big issue. I am more annoyed Bluray cases tend to make removing a disc a difficult task.

Again, I agree the X1 was a mess early on. But I think people would have tolerated much of that at a lower price. Being $499 was the primary issue on day one.



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