It wasn't my intention to start a debate over which gpu is more powerful. Whether Series X is on par with a 2080ti or a Super, I,m sure we can agree that it has amazing specs regardless. It will probably be $599 or more, but that's fine by me and for those who think it's too expensive, they can always wait for a price drop. I'm pretty excited about Series X but my main concern is this whole cross gen and 4Tflops Lockhart thing. 

I just don't see how they can really fully optimize Series X games to look as good as they possibly could, while their 1st party developers constantly have to think "will this run on X1 and/or on 4Tflops too". Obviously, if MS's 1st party studios were to aim for native 4k by default and use inefficient ultra settings on Series X, it would be a different story and yes, then they could just drop the resolution to 1080p, scale down some of the ultra settings and it will run fine and look pretty much identical on Series S, at least to the masses. But imo that's not the best way to optimize a next gen console. It's basically like saying a 2080ti is not capable of pushing out more impressive visuals than Gears 5 at 4k with insane graphics settings. We both know it can, but maybe not in native 4k and while using inefficient ultra settings.

So if the ps5 is 10Tflops and they could optimize their games purely for visual fidelity, use checkerboard rendering, be as efficient as possible (with no ultra graphics settings) and aim for 30fps, wouldn't Sony's 1st party developers be able to get far more impressive results out of the ps5, even if Series X has the Tflops edge? Maybe I'm missing something, but I just feel Lockhart will just be holding the Series X back, just like the Xone is holding the X1X back right now. With the X1X that was to be expected as it came out years later and wasn't mean to take a massive leap over Xone and leave the main userbase behind. But if they would've launched at the same time, one of them surely had to be holding back the other, depending on what the base platform would be. 

You could have fooled me, the xbox X looks amazing on my 1080p projector at 120inches, way more impressive than my 4K 50inch Panasonic. Everyone seems to be in awe with the projector and not once has anyone mentioned resolution. Movies have been 1080p for ages and they looked amazing no one ever complained of bluray poor image. 4K bluray only exists to make money as those are expensive, but in real life most people do not need 4K, theres many other aspects of the image that have more impact.

Even high end PCs struggle to get 4K at 60frames with graphics on maximum, and next gen games will just push it further, so if you want a 4k 60fps, then you will have to cut somewhere else.

4K is unneeded, god of war on ps4 pro looked amazing, not for once did I need for higher resolutions, so yeah I prefer they use the power to add more stuff to the worlds and increase features.

HDR is another thing I don't like, if everyone would use one standard it would be great but I feel I have to mess with the calibration for each game, takes away the purpose of a console, which was to make videogaming simpler and quicker, it turns into a PC when I spend several minutes calibrating the screen.

This is why I am considering skipping consoles for good and go full PC in January, because on PC I have the option for quality of graphics, or resolution.

I used 16xAA since the early 2000, not once did it keep me from seeing the details in games. At 1080p, obviously I want a nice picture in general but I do not stop and zoom in to check little unimportant details. That defeats the purpose of a videogame, which is meant to be played not analysed. 

My point with the red dead example is, use the hardware for something else, bigger worlds, more dense populations, etc If ps4 pro can not run red dead 2, a current gen game at full 4K 60fps, then what makes you think the next gen games will run smoothly? Lets say 5 years from now when they start pushing on graphics. They will need that extra power for something else. Just like current generation even the ps4 could not run all games at 1080p at 30fps with any AA, it takes 5x or more the power to run those same games at 4k 60fps, and if developers really want to bring new graphical abilities and new features, they will need that power as worlds get bigger and more detailed.

Teraflops is nowhere near as popular as 4K as a marketing selling point. For the general public. People have already mentalized about the 4K due to TVs and 4K bluray.

Most people who will buy the consoles couldn't care less about teraflops, go ask any average joe if he knows hoe many teraflops are in the ps4, most people don't know, they just know it has the exclusives they want, such as spiderman, uncharted, last of us, god of war, GT

4TF xbox is just a rumour, lets wait for the reveal

You don't have to worry about pushing games because all xbox exclusives will also be on current gen consoles, so I doubt xbox will have any graphical amazing games, sony will definitely impress more with exclusives such as horizon 2 and spiderman 2 as those will be exclusive to the new hardware.

I doubt the ps5 will be any more than 9TF, so game developers will optimize probably around that, but people who buy the cheap xbox are not people who care about graphics at all, they just want to play the new fifa and call of duty, even 720p would suffice, they don't care. The real hardcore gamers are buying the high end models.

I see no reason whatsoever to buy the cheap model, even on minimum wage the series X and ps5 pro will be 10days of work worth of wages. If you cant afford that, then you should not jump into next gen early as games will stay at high price for much longer.

And if you sell your old console, lets say I sell my xbox X for 250 to buy the series X at 600, the actual cost will be 350 for the high end model, that's 5 days of work, very worth it.

PS - I highly doubt Microsoft would put out a console 3x weaker than their top console, I would understand if the series X came 2 or 3 years after, but both at launch? That's a huge gap, if PS5 has a cheaper 8TF model with bluray drive at 400dollars, then xbox has no chance of gaining market

Sony now has a huge advantage, they already know what Microsoft is doing, so they can now plan on how to market better and price accordingly to compete, never show your cards first, bad move Microsoft. Its like chess, the trick to win is to wait for your opponent to make a mistake.

I'd like to see Series S be the best selling hardware of the 9th gen.

If the only disparity is a less capable GPU, then it would mostly be lower resolutions and maybe other visual tweaks when necessary.

Do people generally feel it could outsell PS5 though? No. Unless it was like $299 vs $599. But I think Sony is really aiming for competitive price.

I'm not too worried and I'm sure most developers will target the ps5 as the base console. I'm more disappointed and baffled by MS's decision making going into the next gen. On one hand they're getting me all excited with Series X, it looks amazing, I expect it to be expensive and I want one. But then they go ahead and say "Here's our beastly 12 Flops Series X, oh and by the way, it won't have any games made for it for the next 2 years as everything will be cross gen". Then we get all these rumors about a 4Tflops budget version, which would play the exact same games, just not in native 4k and 60 or even 120fps for the remainder of the upcoming console generation. It's almost as if they don't want me to buy a Series X lol. As I said before, if people really cared that much about 4k and/or a higher fps, the ps4 pro and X1X would have sold a lot better.

If all of this is true, for the next 2 years, we would see a rack of ps5 exclusive games on one side, and on the other side we'll see Xbox games with a sticker on it that says "optimized for Series X". I just don't think it will be a great selling point for the Series X. I remember Sony saying "next gen won't start until we say it does", which sounded very arrogant at the time. But they're actually right because if the ps5 wouldn't launch, no developer would be making any true next gen games. Ps4 would still be the base console and Series X would just get 4k/120fps versions of those exact same games.

Yep PS5 at 399-449 (perhaps even 499) against Series S at 299 PS5 most likely would outsell as people could think "twice or triple the performance for just 100 or 150 bucks more it is a steal". But at 599 (and Series X also 599) people would really look and think, nope PS5 isn't worth twice as much and Series S would be the best seller most likely.

That is what makes the time before official announcement of specs and price for all systems exciting and speculation rampant.

Eeeeerrrr even though I prefer what I think will be Sony approach of the last PS4 developed game being Ghost of Tsushijima and every game after that being only on PS5 (reason why they haven't announced a game in quite a long time) Xbox strategy of crossgen for a couple of years (as some have said that doesn't mean 2021 and 2022, but most likely this year - like Halo Infinite - and the next year) isn't something really new or odd. Almost every gen we have seem most 3rd party companies release crossgen, until that title see a big dump on sales (like CoD and Fifa that got crossgen releases for previous gen well into the next gen), and also some titles that were released either as crossgen or received a port in the start of the gen like TLOU (which done wonders on the remaster), BotW (which outsold the own system on the first months due to stock constrains for Switch).

So yes we can speculate how much (and probably not that much) the crossgen will limit the Series X version, but that in itself isn't a problem on the MS strategy. I don't like as a gamer because I want the best version of the games I like, but as company strategy MS is fine on crossgen.

It's a bit different with games like TLOU and Ghost of Tsushijima as they will come out before the ps5 launch. They will no doubt get remasters, even if that is a bit harder to sell with MS's announcement of smart delivery. However. I'm sure that the rest of of Sony's 1st party studios are currently working on ps5 exclusives that will skip ps4 and will be 100% optimized specifically for that 1 console. The Series X has amazing specs and I can only hope Sony will match them, but the Series X will be held back by MS's odd cross platform strategy. Even if it's just 1 year with the X1, their games will still have to run on the 4Tflops Series for the remainder of the next gen console generation. 

We will see how 3rd party developers respond to having a bunch of different console specs next gen, but it can only go 2 ways.

1. They will use ps5 as the base console, completely optimize for that platform with checkerboard rendering etc. and the Series S versions will run with some serious compromises like 720p.

2. They will use Series S as the base console and aim for 1080p. Games will be held back across the board because of it and we;ll just get higher res/ fps versions on ps5/ Series X with some extra ultra settings, that most people won't notice.

It all depends. Sony may decide for MS course with free updates and crossbuy because of the BC and the system load the best version you can play depending on the system. So it can't be assured anything about what Sony will do on giving patches or selling port.

Still I already said that probably all titles after GoT will be exclusive to PS5, still that won't make that much of difference, even more because usually PS is light on exclusives on launch.

3rd party will be crossgen for most titles on the first 2 years, so you are basically answering yourself (as most players buy consoles for the 3rd parties). You are seeing to much doom for a difference between PS5 exclusives versus the 3rd party cross gen and MS crossgen titles. I have no doubt PS5 will be better, look better and even play better, and that the difference will be visible, still that won't be the reason PS5 will sell 2:1 to Xbox totals. That is only one of the several reasons and probably not even the biggest one.

Yeah I also see Sony doing something with cross buy, I just don't like this "best version of a game" thing. I would much rather see developers focus on a single platform and really try to get the best results out of it like we've always seen on consoles. Having a bunch of different SKU's with wildly different specs makes me slightly worried which one they'll end up using as the base console, though.

It's a bit like the X1X or a high-end pc. They're great but nobody makes games that were designed from the ground up to take full advantage of the extra horse power. I mean the X1X is 4 times more powerful than the Xone but it's not like games look 4 times better on it. They look sharper and run at a higher fps, but that's mostly it. On pc it's the same thing, you can play ps4 games at 4k and ultra settings but a RTX2080 could do helluva lot more. Just to give you an idea, here's a tech demo that's running on a single 1080ti gpu. It probably doesn't run at native 4k on a 1080ti but it's a pretty big leap from what we're seeing today on current gen consoles, because it wasn't designed to run on a bunch of different devices: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKu1Y-LlfNQ

Also, check out this tech demo running on a ps4 pro at 720p: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lhpn96bbzkk

And knowing this you'll go for PC instead of Series S for what reason?