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Forums - General Discussion - Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion Thread

LurkerJ said:

BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine is less potent against South African variant

Covid-19 jab still works but produces only a third of the antibodies it did for original virus, study finds

Edit: the above is needlessly alarming. Please ignore. Read this instead

Pfizer says South African variant could significantly reduce protective antibodies

(This February 17 story corrects headline and first paragraph to show the reduction was in the protective antibodies elicited by the vaccine, not the protection of the vaccine overall)

(Reuters) - A laboratory study suggests that the South African variant of the coronavirus may reduce protective antibodies elicited by the Pfizer Inc/BioNTech SE vaccine by two-thirds, and it is not clear if the shot will be effective against the mutation, the companies said on Wednesday.

Researchers tested the engineered virus against blood taken from people who had been given the vaccine, and found a two- thirds reduction in the level of neutralizing antibodies compared with its effect on the most common version of the virus prevalent in U.S. trials.

Because there is no established benchmark yet to determine what level of antibodies are needed to protect against the virus, it is unclear whether that two-thirds reduction will render the vaccine ineffective against the variant spreading around the world.

“We don’t know what the minimum neutralizing number is. We don’t have that cutoff line,” he said, adding that he suspects the immune response observed is likely to be significantly above where it needs to be to provide protection.

Even if the concerning variant significantly reduces effectiveness, the vaccine should still help protect against severe disease and death, he noted. Health experts have said that is the most important factor in keeping stretched healthcare systems from becoming overwhelmed.

Moderna published a correspondence in NEJM on Wednesday with similar data previously disclosed elsewhere that showed a sixfold drop antibody levels versus the South African variant.

Moderna also said the actual efficacy of its vaccine against the South African variant is yet to be determined. The company has previously said it believes the vaccine will work against the variant.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-vaccines-variants-idUSKBN2AH2VG

Thats old news isnt it?

Yes it goes from like 95% effectiveness down to like 80% effectiveness against the south african version (I think I read?).

However, thats still MUCH better than how some of the other vaccines do.

Astrazeneca vaccine drops down to like ~10% effectiveness against that variant.
Thats why South Africa is like "okay UK, we wont bother buying anymore vaccines, thank you".

This is also why I said, it was worrying that the South African variant is spreading in the UK, since most of their vaccines are from AZ.
Thus it could undo alot of the good work vaccinateing they have already managed to get done.



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Welp... Here in Brazil, in big cities like Rio de Janeiro and Curitiba, they had to interrupt the vaccination due to the lack of doses.



JRPGfan said:
LurkerJ said:

Thats old news isnt it?

Yes it goes from like 95% effectiveness down to like 80% effectiveness against the south african version (I think I read?).

However, thats still MUCH better than how some of the other vaccines do.

Astrazeneca vaccine drops down to like ~10% effectiveness against that variant.
Thats why South Africa is like "okay UK, we wont bother buying anymore vaccines, thank you".

This is also why I said, it was worrying that the South African variant is spreading in the UK, since most of their vaccines are from AZ.
Thus it could undo alot of the good work vaccinateing they have already managed to get done.

Yes, it's kind of old news but Reuters loves their Covid doom, so there you go.

As for those numbers, that was just the press theorizing. We don't have numbers from actual trials, just controlled in vitro studies.

For all we know, it could be a big drop comparable to Novavax's, where its efficacy dropped from 95% in conditions similar to Pfizer's phase III trials down to 50% - 60% with the South African variant. Or it could be a smaller drop of about one-fifth like it happened with J&J's single-dose vaccine.

Of course, like every expert has been trying to hammer in the minds of efficacy junkies, it's far, far easier to prevent severe disease than infection. And that all the vaccines should continue doing that very well.

Last edited by haxxiy - on 19 February 2021

 

 

 

 

 

Ryuu96 said:

Just received the 1st dose of the Pfizer vaccine.

Jk, I feel fine.

Hope the rest of VGChartz can receive their vaccines as soon as possible!

Keep up the good sourcing in the discussions here too, everything relating to the vaccines needs to have good sources, we need as many people vaccinated as possible.

Nice try, Bill.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

Weekly update, still heading down overall but the downward trend is slowing and already reversing in some countries


In total 2.52 million new cases were reported over the last week (2.81 million the week before) to a total of 111,232,756 detected cases
Also another 70,082 deaths were reported (down from 84,975) to a total of 2,462,663 casualties so far

Europe already seems to be losing its downward momentum, some countries showing signs of heading back up. The USA is still dropping.

The continents

Europe reported 893K new cases (down from 921K) and 25,668 more deaths (down from 30,416)
North America reported 606K new cases (down from 827K) and 23,232 more deaths (down from 31,565)
South America reported 487K new cases (down from 507K) and 12,399 more deaths (down from 13,034)
Asia reported 454K new cases (down from 466K) and 5,878 more deaths (down from 6,310)
Africa reported 80.9K new cases (down from 90.4K) and 2,901 more deaths (down from 3,648)
Oceania reported 181 new cases and 4 deaths

Corners of the world


USA reported 497K new cases (down from 699K) and 15,225 more deaths (down from 21,816)
Brazil reported 316K new cases (317K last week) and 7,354 more deaths (7,474 last week)
India reported 84.2K new cases (down from 77.3K) and 652 deaths (632 last week)
Iran reported 54.4K new cases (up from 51.4K) and 532 deaths (473 last week)
Canada reported 20.3K new cases (down from 22.6K) and 414 deaths (553 last week)
South Africa reported 13.0K new cases (down from 17.1K) and 1,189 more deaths (down from 1,768)
Japan reported 10.2K new cases (down from 12.7K) and 500 deaths (639 last week)
South Korea reported 3,291 new cases (up from 2,706) and 43 deaths (48 last week)
Australia reported 31 new cases, no deaths

Europe in detail

It looks like we're going to draw out this wave until vaccines hopefully get rid of the pandemic. The willingness to drive numbers down doesn't seem to be there anymore. At least fewer people are dying now with better treatment and the most vulnerable getting vaccinated (in rich countries that is).

We're now back to late November when it comes to nr of deaths per week, still about double the minimum after the first wave in September. For reported cases we're back to October levels.



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Yeah it's suspected that the UK variant is spreading faster now.

"The proportion of cases resulting from the coronavirus mutation first detected in the UK is doubling every week.
German Health Minister Jens Spahn told reporters in Berlin Wednesday that the B117 coronavirus variant now accounts for 22% of all new infections in the country.
Two weeks ago, the number of cases resulting from the mutation first discovered in the UK was just 6%."

Numbers are pretty much flat now.



While on the one side we're getting the death rate down, on the other, long term symptoms seem to be more widespread than previously thought.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/almost-a-third-of-people-with-mild-covid-19-still-battle-symptoms-months-later-study-finds-1.5316239

A new research letter published Friday in the journal JAMA Network Open is shedding new light on the condition. Researchers from the University of Washington followed 177 people with laboratory-confirmed SARS-CoV-2 infection for up to nine months -- the longest follow-up to date. Notably, this group included 150 outpatients, who had "mild" disease and were not hospitalized.

They found that 30 per cent of respondents reported persistent symptoms. The most common were fatigue and loss of smell or taste. More than 30 per cent of respondents reported worse quality of life compared to before getting sick. And 14 participants (8 per cent) -- including nine people who had not been hospitalized -- reported having trouble performing at least one usual activity, such as daily chores.

The researchers wrote that with 57.8 million cases worldwide, "even a small incidence of long-term debility could have enormous health and economic consequences."

A much larger study, published in early January in The Lancet, found that of 1,733 coronavirus patients treated in the Chinese city of Wuhan, 76 per cent were still experiencing at least one symptom six months after their symptoms began. But this group was made up entirely of hospitalized patients.


Stress can cause a lot symptoms as well yet some things are too specific like loss of smell and taste.

As for what is causing those symptoms, Sandrock points to several culprits. Some might be caused by the complications of an extended hospital or ICU stay, which is known to be hard on the body and have lasting effects. Some could be triggered by microvascular disease -- damage to the capillaries, which Sandrock says is behind many symptoms, from chest pain to "COVID toes" to fatigue and even brain fog. Some symptoms could be set off by an autoimmune response triggered by high levels of inflammation, such as joint and body aches, sleep disturbances, depression and fatigue. And some could be as a direct infection by the virus, such as loss of smell and/or taste, according to Sandrock.



Vaccination begins today here in Australia.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-02-21/greg-hunt-says-australias-covid-vaccinations-progam-begins/13176288

It will probably be a long time before I receive mine however, as my doctor doesn't think my asthma or still being under observation for cancer meets the criteria for "pre-existing conditions", and I'm relatively young.



SvennoJ said:

While on the one side we're getting the death rate down, on the other, long term symptoms seem to be more widespread than previously thought.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/almost-a-third-of-people-with-mild-covid-19-still-battle-symptoms-months-later-study-finds-1.5316239

I wonder how much of that boils down to epistemic feedback. That is to say, the experimenter interpreting information to conform to a hypothesis, and the subject suffering from the nocebo effect by virtue of being aware of a previous Covid-19 diagnosis. I'm not accusing anyone of deliberate systematic bias, mind you, just that such variables would be virtually impossible to exclude from the null hypothesis without a double-blind study (which is why these "long Covid" studies go anywhere from 0% to 100%, so this one is not even at the higher range).

It looks like at least a few people develop a dysfunctional immune response that goes on to attack their own organs after the disease, but to that extent? I think the social and medical consequences would have been far more obvious during the last summer if that was the case, as opposed to deaths and medical appointments falling below the long-term average.

Last edited by haxxiy - on 21 February 2021

 

 

 

 

 

haxxiy said:

I wonder how much of that boils down to epistemic feedback. That is to say, the experimenter interpreting information to conform to a hypothesis, and the subject suffering from the nocebo effect by virtue of being aware of a previous Covid-19 diagnosis. I'm not accusing anyone of deliberate systematic bias, mind you, just that such variables would be virtually impossible to exclude from the null hypothesis without a double-blind study (which is why these "long Covid" studies go anywhere from 0% to 100%, so this one is not even at the higher range).

It looks like at least a few people develop a dysfunctional immune response that goes on to attack their own organs after the disease, but to that extent? I think the social and medical consequences would have been far more obvious during the last summer if that was the case, as opposed to deaths and medical appointments falling below the long-term average.

A lot I guess. A lot of those symptoms are also present in people who never got covid, simply from the added stress, the effects of living in isolation and delayed access to medical care.

My wife still struggles with likely post covid symptoms (never confirmed she actually had it a year ago, but all signs point to it) however now she's been switched on different blood pressure medication (without warning, old manufacturer closed doors) she's been having chest pains ever since (one of the side effects of the new drug) and it's nearly impossible to get a doctor's appointment to sort things out (very low blood pressure in the morning, very high in the afternoon) Stress from online learning and stress about our youngest not coping all that well with being home from school for nearly a year now only piles on to it.

So where would she fall in a study like this. Loss of taste is still something she suffers from as well, now nearly a year later. She can't eat any meat anymore, no clue if that's related, but any meat products make her sick near instantly. Fish is still ok. What is from stress, what could be from lingering symptoms, what could be from a previous deadly infection she had, what is related to the change in medication.

It's still weeks before she can finally see a doctor (appointment made a month ago after ER visit after continuous calling the doctor with stroke level high blood pressure). Meanwhile one of her best friends has been diagnosed with lung cancer, almost a year to late due to covid, not being able to get in with problems nor checkups before that. And now needs emergency surgery to remove more than half of her left lung as step one.

The covid fallout and continually pushing the healthcare system past it limits has severe consequences.


Just checking the news right now
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/isolation-and-sanitation-during-covid-19-may-affect-human-microbiome-scientists-say-1.5317868

While it's important to follow public health orders to reduce spread of COVID-19, experts say that all the antibacterial wipes and physical distancing could have long-term impacts on our microbiomes

When we hug someone, travel to another country or get our hands dirty, we acquire new microbes, said Brett Finlay, a University of British Columbia microbiologist. Although some microbes can make us sick, others are good for us, and a diverse and rich microbiome is essential to our health, he said.

Finlay said the discovery of pasteurization in the late 1800s kicked off about a century of society being "hellbent" on getting rid of microbes, and infectious diseases declined as a result. But the loss of microbial diversity has been linked to conditions including asthma, obesity, diabetes and brain and cardiovascular diseases, he said.

All signs point to NZ and Australia having the right idea about handling the pandemic, zero tolerance. This song and dance we keep doing out here is causing more and more issues long term.

Last edited by SvennoJ - on 21 February 2021