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Forums - General Discussion - Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion Thread

curl-6 said:
EricHiggin said:

When their professional leadership tells them masking is not necessary or they're told by other (trusted) professionals it could cause some level of harm to themselves, or that the effectiveness is questionable if not quite low, what are people supposed to think? Even the highest establishments have changed their recommendations over time and not minimal changes either. You can't tell the people you're the honest trusted experts, then constantly change your rules, especially when those individuals are caught breaking the rules themselves. For those who talk about setting an example and how much it means, it seems many of them don't seem to think that matters in this situation. Just because a professional may look the part and have the certificates, don't mean much to some people. Their actions are what speak.

Beyond that is the media. Putting someone like Bill Gates on there is idiotic. Whether you think he's smart or not, he's not seen as a medical professional, so why is he being broadcast when it comes to covid? Or when riots break out, and the news says nothing of it being a problem as per the pandemic, which they've focused on heavily for months, but instead fuel it? Then having 'experts' on who say a vaccine will take until later 2021 or even 2022 to become available and there being no chance it could be ready this year, only for it to be available now.

All this and more is reason enough not to listen for some. Those who agree that, "with great power come great responsibility", should also agree the people in charge have done a terrible job all around. The medical staff and people have been done a great disservice.

The quality of leadership has varied by country, and what we know about the disease has changed as we've learned more about it, but it's the scientific consensus that masks are beneficial, and it has been for some time now.

Yes, but that's a problem as well. You can't say NZ is a shining example of doing it right because they've beat it, then later on explain they hadn't actually beat it. You've just screwed yourself big time by way overexaggerating. Not to mention some people saw that as more of a political statement then a medical one.

How beneficial matters a lot. Just because eating something you don't like will make you a little bit healthier and will indirectly help others a bit isn't going to convince people to change their diet. It has to make a worthwhile difference to them. Having to wear the high end mask to get a reasonable benefit doesn't help either unless the Gov is going to cover that.



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EricHiggin said:
curl-6 said:

The quality of leadership has varied by country, and what we know about the disease has changed as we've learned more about it, but it's the scientific consensus that masks are beneficial, and it has been for some time now.

Yes, but that's a problem as well. You can't say NZ is a shining example of doing it right because they've beat it, then later on explain they hadn't actually beat it. You've just screwed yourself big time by way overexaggerating. Not to mention some people saw that as more of a political statement then a medical one.

How beneficial matters a lot. Just because eating something you don't like will make you a little bit healthier and will indirectly help others a bit isn't going to convince people to change their diet. It has to make a worthwhile difference to them. Having to wear the high end mask to get a reasonable benefit doesn't help either unless the Gov is going to cover that.

NZ has done a much better job than the vast majority of other countries, that's a fact, their cases have been in the single digits for two months, and most of those in managed isolation, not in the community, how many countries can claim that? They effectively have beaten it.

The expert consensus is that masks help, and even if they only partially helped, you'd be crazy to avoid such a tiny inconvenience when there's a chance it could save lives.

Last edited by curl-6 - on 18 December 2020

curl-6 said:
EricHiggin said:

Yes, but that's a problem as well. You can't say NZ is a shining example of doing it right because they've beat it, then later on explain they hadn't actually beat it. You've just screwed yourself big time by way overexaggerating. Not to mention some people saw that as more of a political statement then a medical one.

How beneficial matters a lot. Just because eating something you don't like will make you a little bit healthier and will indirectly help others a bit isn't going to convince people to change their diet. It has to make a worthwhile difference to them. Having to wear the high end mask to get a reasonable benefit doesn't help either unless the Gov is going to cover that.

NZ has done a much better job than the vast majority of other countries, that's a fact, their cases have been in the single digits for two months, how many countries can claim that?

The expert consensus is that masks help, and even if they only partially helped, you'd be crazy to avoid such a tiny inconvenience when it can save lives.

That wasn't the point. The media, and some politicians, people with a lot of power, made NZ out to be perfection, when that wasn't the case. Not only is perfect an idiotic thing to proclaim to begin with, because nothing is, but to then try and make it seem like further outbreaks were no big deal, just shows they don't really care all that much about the illness and the people. Just need a headline that fits the script. If you want people's trust, you can't sellout.

Problem here is similar to the, how many people dying from an illness is acceptable question? How far should individuals go to try and save everyone else? The truth is we could all do a lot more to make the world a much safer place, but it would be a ton of minor things that people just won't do. Many already feel they don't have enough free time and have too many headaches, so asking more only really works if it's going to make a significant difference.

Talk is cheap unfortunately. The less of a connection someone has to you, the less they will care about you. Expecting everyone to care equally about everyone else in the world isn't realistic. Especially when some individuals or groups of them, are painted/seen as lesser morally than others, whether it's true or not. When more than a few people become excited enough to spread their joy/hope for an illness taking people down for good, well, beats me how you convince some others to care as well.



Ka-pi96 said:
Rab said:

Think about how hard it is to deal with the untrusting, hostile public as a contact tracer

The constant use of misinformation and politicising is having dangerous consequences around the World   

https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-55280321 

Quote:

"In all honesty, I have been shocked and disgusted by my experience.

The most common negative experiences include frustration at unanswered calls, calls going to voicemail repeatedly, calls being blocked, phones being slammed down when you introduce yourself, and sometimes an unpleasant attitude when the call does get answered. People are called 10 or even 15 times before they are marked as a failed follow-up. Every unsuccessful call has to be documented, further wasting our time.

Very few people could genuinely think it's a scam. When a call goes to voicemail we leave a message explaining that we are from Test and Trace, giving the number we are calling from and asking the individual to look out for calls from that number. They are also invited to check this information on the gov.uk website.

When someone has actually answered the phone, I've had a few shocking exchanges.

For example, when I asked one person to go through the questions with me, the answer was: "Oh I can't just now - because I'm in Starbucks." Now, this person has had a positive test and should be isolating. They've had a text telling them they are Covid-positive, yet they are still out in Starbucks infecting other people!"

Hard to feel sympathy for them for that when it's their own fault. If the government had banned annoying sales/scam calls like they should have done then maybe people would actually be willing to answer when the government is calling them for something important.

I personally never answer calls or listen to voicemail from numbers I don't know (also don't answer the door unless I'm expecting somebody) and the government allowing sales calls and jehovahs and whatnot is the reason for that.

So if you're talking about the "untrusting, hostile public" then maybe they shouldn't have made people that way. If you keep allowing somebody to be poked with a stick then you shouldn't be at all surprised when they're not willing to help you when you want a favour.

How is it the individual call tracers fault??? they are doing a job, they have no say in government policy, they are just people receiving abuse, what an ass thing to say! 

They do leave voice mail, so if people leave their number at a restaurant so the government can contact them in an emergency, then people should at least listen to voice mail in these trying times expecting a possible call about covid infection   

It's always easy to blame others when you cant be arsed to take responsibility

I know in Australia people do check these things and have been really compliant with orders that have had a huge benefit to Australia's community as a whole  

Last edited by Rab - on 18 December 2020

EricHiggin said:
curl-6 said:

NZ has done a much better job than the vast majority of other countries, that's a fact, their cases have been in the single digits for two months, how many countries can claim that?

The expert consensus is that masks help, and even if they only partially helped, you'd be crazy to avoid such a tiny inconvenience when it can save lives.

That wasn't the point. The media, and some politicians, people with a lot of power, made NZ out to be perfection, when that wasn't the case. Not only is perfect an idiotic thing to proclaim to begin with, because nothing is, but to then try and make it seem like further outbreaks were no big deal, just shows they don't really care all that much about the illness and the people. Just need a headline that fits the script. If you want people's trust, you can't sellout.

Problem here is similar to the, how many people dying from an illness is acceptable question? How far should individuals go to try and save everyone else? The truth is we could all do a lot more to make the world a much safer place, but it would be a ton of minor things that people just won't do. Many already feel they don't have enough free time and have too many headaches, so asking more only really works if it's going to make a significant difference.

Talk is cheap unfortunately. The less of a connection someone has to you, the less they will care about you. Expecting everyone to care equally about everyone else in the world isn't realistic. Especially when some individuals or groups of them, are painted/seen as lesser morally than others, whether it's true or not. When more than a few people become excited enough to spread their joy/hope for an illness taking people down for good, well, beats me how you convince some others to care as well.

You are, perhaps intentionally, overcomplicating this.

NZ did one of the best jobs of any country in the world of handling COVID-19. Masks work, and acting as though disease control during a pandemic is authoritarianism is ridiculous.



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EricHiggin said:
curl-6 said:

The quality of leadership has varied by country, and what we know about the disease has changed as we've learned more about it, but it's the scientific consensus that masks are beneficial, and it has been for some time now.

Yes, but that's a problem as well. You can't say NZ is a shining example of doing it right because they've beat it, then later on explain they hadn't actually beat it. You've just screwed yourself big time by way overexaggerating. Not to mention some people saw that as more of a political statement then a medical one.

How beneficial matters a lot. Just because eating something you don't like will make you a little bit healthier and will indirectly help others a bit isn't going to convince people to change their diet. It has to make a worthwhile difference to them. Having to wear the high end mask to get a reasonable benefit doesn't help either unless the Gov is going to cover that.

Wow.. NZ and Australia cant control what is happening around the world, at times this disease gets through quarantine, it was expected and planned for, but as a whole those two countries have some of the best conditions for the free movement of people and business in any country because they have tight control of the virus due to the discipline of its people and governments, all this means greater freedoms and safety beyond what other countries can expect or enjoy     



curl-6 said:
EricHiggin said:

That wasn't the point. The media, and some politicians, people with a lot of power, made NZ out to be perfection, when that wasn't the case. Not only is perfect an idiotic thing to proclaim to begin with, because nothing is, but to then try and make it seem like further outbreaks were no big deal, just shows they don't really care all that much about the illness and the people. Just need a headline that fits the script. If you want people's trust, you can't sellout.

Problem here is similar to the, how many people dying from an illness is acceptable question? How far should individuals go to try and save everyone else? The truth is we could all do a lot more to make the world a much safer place, but it would be a ton of minor things that people just won't do. Many already feel they don't have enough free time and have too many headaches, so asking more only really works if it's going to make a significant difference.

Talk is cheap unfortunately. The less of a connection someone has to you, the less they will care about you. Expecting everyone to care equally about everyone else in the world isn't realistic. Especially when some individuals or groups of them, are painted/seen as lesser morally than others, whether it's true or not. When more than a few people become excited enough to spread their joy/hope for an illness taking people down for good, well, beats me how you convince some others to care as well.

You are, perhaps intentionally, overcomplicating this.

NZ did one of the best jobs of any country in the world of handling COVID-19. Masks work, and acting as though disease control during a pandemic is authoritarianism is ridiculous.

Elon Musk would agree, yet disagree. It's not overcomplicating, it's taking as much as possible necessary into account to make it simpler.



Rab said:
EricHiggin said:

Yes, but that's a problem as well. You can't say NZ is a shining example of doing it right because they've beat it, then later on explain they hadn't actually beat it. You've just screwed yourself big time by way overexaggerating. Not to mention some people saw that as more of a political statement then a medical one.

How beneficial matters a lot. Just because eating something you don't like will make you a little bit healthier and will indirectly help others a bit isn't going to convince people to change their diet. It has to make a worthwhile difference to them. Having to wear the high end mask to get a reasonable benefit doesn't help either unless the Gov is going to cover that.

Wow.. NZ and Australia cant control what is happening around the world, at times this disease gets through quarantine, it was expected and planned for, but as a whole those two countries have some of the best conditions for the free movement of people and business in any country because they have tight control of the virus due to the discipline of its people and governments, all this means greater freedoms and safety beyond what other countries can expect or enjoy     

Giving up much freedom to get freedom sooner cancels itself out, no different than giving up a little freedom and dealing with that for a while longer. How it will play out later on, which nobody knows, and how it will effect everything/everyone else, will be what gives a reasonable indication of who did what better.



EricHiggin said:
curl-6 said:

You are, perhaps intentionally, overcomplicating this.

NZ did one of the best jobs of any country in the world of handling COVID-19. Masks work, and acting as though disease control during a pandemic is authoritarianism is ridiculous.

Elon Musk would agree, yet disagree. It's not overcomplicating, it's taking as much as possible necessary into account to make it simpler.

No offense, but what you're doing seems to be more putting up as much smoke as possible to obscure what's actually not complicated at all.



EricHiggin said:
Rab said:

Wow.. NZ and Australia cant control what is happening around the world, at times this disease gets through quarantine, it was expected and planned for, but as a whole those two countries have some of the best conditions for the free movement of people and business in any country because they have tight control of the virus due to the discipline of its people and governments, all this means greater freedoms and safety beyond what other countries can expect or enjoy     

Giving up much freedom to get freedom sooner cancels itself out, no different than giving up a little freedom and dealing with that for a while longer. How it will play out later on, which nobody knows, and how it will effect everything/everyone else, will be what gives a reasonable indication of who did what better.

Except the NZ/Australian freedoms are deeper and for everyone including for the old and health compromised, everyone is safer in this form of universal freedom, these countries truly believe the idea that with freedom comes responsibility, and it shows in practice to work beautifully