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Forums - General Discussion - Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion Thread

Pemalite said:
Pyro as Bill said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post%E2%80%93World_War_II_economic_expansion

The USA came out of it rather well, but they didn't loose 10's of millions of people like most of Europe... They didn't have all their production/factories bombed or wiped out. - Europe/United Kingdom and other areas after WW2 saw economic collapses of 70% or more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aftermath_of_World_War_II#Economic_aftermath

However by the end of the 1950's most economies had bounced back.

The War caused the 70% collapse and was one long 6 year depression.
The period after the War is literally referred to as the Golden Age of Capitalism because of the unprecedented levels of growth.
The depopulation during the War didn't cause a post-war depression. It did the complete opposite.


The British Empire went from controlling 23% of the worlds population and now holds a paltry 0.87% of the worlds comparative population. - It lost tons of controlled states/territories/dependencies as well, Hong Kong is a fairly significant one for example.

Good. Empires are expensive. We became richer than ever after 'losing' the Empire.
Hong Kong didn't leave until 1997 and they'd have stayed if they'd had the choice or China agreed to extend the lease.

Empire - noun
1.an extensive group of states or countries ruled over by a single monarch......
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_realm

151m/7700m = ~2% of the world's population and still has over half the territory it did at it's peak and everybody's pretty chill about it instead of rebelling all the time.



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Was at 13.9% with 3500 test.



jason1637 said:

Was at 13.9% with 3500 test.

I question how responsible it is to tweet this without any further context, time frame, implications, method used, error margins etc. Just look at the first two replies

"Lockdowns just slow herd immunity"

"The mortality rate continues to decline. We are destroying our economy for a mortality rate similar to the flu."


But maybe the goal is to get people to ignore lock downs and go for herd immunity?



Pemalite said:

KiigelHeart said:

Economy will start to grow again but at what cost. When you put out bush fires you don't necessarely see the effects collapsing economy has to life and quality of life. Social security system is not some magical safety net that can prevent all the shit from happening. Especially when our country is in debt already. Most economists are very much worried about where things are headed, and for a good reason. .

When a region is hit by the bushfires.
The community steps in with financial aid... The community donated hundreds of millions of dollars so people could rebuild.

People like myself gave up several months of their life protecting communities.

The Government also stepped in and provided aid so that people could rebuild.

You are right, Social Security isn't a preventative, it was never meant to be a preventative, it is part of the response phase, debt and money isn't as important as human life... Anyone who places money above human life isn't a human being in my opinion.

I worded my post poorly. What I meant was that in your line of work you don't have to deal with people struggling with collapsing economy. I don't know if Australia has even seen a major depression. We have, in the early 90s and I'm scared to even think what this will cause if it's global and happens so quickly.

Nice example about community response to bushfires though. That's how it should be. But depression is something else and community will struggle to donate money to rebuild, with businesses going bankrupt and unemployment rising. It will be rebuilt, but damage to human life will be ugly. Costs of healthcare and education system etc. will have to be reduced which will lead to issues. And as for Finland, it could well be the end of our welfare society or whatever you call it in english. Maybe Australia will be able to cope better, I don't know.

KiigelHeart said:

At his point in many countries it's not about closing things down for a month or two anymore. Finland did it too and we are potentially yet to hit the peak. I'm also not saying everything needs to be opened at once. But continuing this level of lockdown will result in huge economic impact and affect lives. And these lives I'm worried about despite you accusing me of valuing the worth of dollar over a life. Which is insulting by the way.eryone from infection will result in worse.

Finland hasn't taken the same measures as Australia and New Zealand, I did a case study a few weeks ago of another island nation similar in population size and density to New Zealand... And they haven't been as successful.

Let the economic impact happen, let it effect lives... Force the government to step in with measures to support the people and weather the storm.

And yes, you are valuing the dollar over life because you are more worried about the economic impacts rather than peoples health, no that isn't insulting, let's not sugar coat it. - It is exactly what your stance is.

Cool, now you're saying I'm not even a human being and still claim it isn't insulting? Got to say I didn't think this of you.

Anyway, is this really so hard for you to understand, economic impacts have an effect on peoples health. It's pretty obvious you refuse to see this side of the coin. I won't be unemployed if things go south, neither will my wife, but I'm very much concerned about other people around me.

Studies done about early 90s depression effects to human health don't paint a pretty picture. And this will potentially be even worse with COVID-19 lurking around. My stance is, you have to find a balance of protecting others without fucking up the lives of others. It's all about valuing peoples health.

KiigelHeart said:

Good for Australia and New Zealand if you can put all this behind already. But it's too late for many countries and I think we'll be living with COVID-19 for a long time, it can't be erased anymore. And trying to protect everyone from infection will result in worse.

And it's those countries own fault.

If the United States took instant proactive measures, they wouldn't be in the situation they are in, they would instead be looking at the possibility of having defeated the virus and getting back to normalcy.

But their laggard approach and nonchalant way of thinking is what has gotten them into this predicament which could have been entirely avoided. - And let's be realistic here, this isn't the first wide-spread disease the United States has had to deal with, H1N1 was also a "test" they could have learned from, but didn't.

What's your obsession with United States? While I think it's very unlikely this virus could've been defeated even with instant proactive measures, there's plenty of other countries who messed up as well. This wasn't the first wide-spread disease Europe had to deal with either, and things have been just as bad. This hindsight bullshit isn't helping anyone at the moment, there's time for that later, hopefully. Now would be the time to try to avoid a future where we'll be fighting COVID-19 while dealing with economic crisis. How it's done I'm not sure, but months and months of lockdown will lead  to that future.

edit. well fuck it after considering it a while I think I do value money over health.. I risk my own life and health for a lousy paycheck. You got me.

Last edited by KiigelHeart - on 28 April 2020

Good article, good context for that 14.9% infected tweet

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/cuomo-outlines-reopening-roadmap-for-new-york-as-daily-deaths-hit-lowest-level-in-weeks/2390949/


Some key points:

New York will start to reopen parts of the state after May 15, while New Jersey will indefinitely extend its stay-at-home orders — signs of a nuanced start to a process that could take months and fundamentally reshape the way people live and work.

Cuomo has unveiled a broad, gradually phased reopening plan, one that could see parts of New York, like upstate, open as early as mid-May.

While parts of upstate New York may be able to reopen in phases after May 15, reopening the downstate area -- New York City, Westchester, Long Island and surrounding suburbs -- is a highly complicated endeavor, given the prevalence of COVID-19 in those areas, Cuomo said.

In the hardest-hit places, containment is still the highest priority. Cuomo noted Sunday the infection rate continues to slow. Last week, 10 New Yorkers were infecting about every nine New Yorkers. It has improved slightly -- to about eight infections for every 10 New Yorkers -- but it has to decline more to reopen safely, he says.

No major reopening will happen in New York until state and regional hospitalization rates see a decline for 14 straight days, in accordance with CDC guidelines, Cuomo said. Once that metric is met, reopening will be phased.



Murphy Unveils Roadmap for New Jersey

The first four principles of his six-principle approach are dedicated to securing public health. Principle 1 requires a sustained drop in the curve, meaning new positive results and hospitalization numbers will need to trend down. Murphy also wants to see hospitals to step down from functioning in crisis mode. No. 2 involves expanding testing capacity and dramatically expediting results. The third step entails robust contact tracing, while the fourth involves securing safe places to isolate for future COVID-19 patients. 

Once those objectives have been accomplished, Murphy says the state can move to principle 5 -- a responsible economic reboot. After that, the goal is to ensure resiliency. He plans to have a similar reopening plan to New York in terms of balancing an industry's risk with its essentiality.

The first steps to New Jersey's reopening are likely still a few weeks away, he said -- but he wants his state's residents to feel confident the time will come.



Mayor de Blasio on New York City

In New York City, the epicenter of the national crisis, Mayor Bill de Blasio said reopening would be determined by his key three daily health indicators: number of hospitalizations, number of ICU admissions and percentage of people testing positive. He wants to see all three indicators trend down for at least 10 to 14 days.

Since he's been publicly charting New York City's progress in his daily media briefings, the city has only seen two days where all three metrics declined. Those two days came more than a week apart.

De Blasio announced alternate side parking would remain suspended in the city for another two weeks, at least until May 12. To help give New Yorkers more open space, he said he had reached a deal with the city council to open up 40 miles of city streets to pedestrian traffic over the next month, starting with the hardest-hit communities. Up to 100 miles of streets could be made available through sidewalk expansions and conversions into pedestrian plazas.

Ultimately, the mayor says he wants a roadmap by June 1 on how to rebuild New York City; he has said that won't include the reopening of public schools.

While the mayor had warned New Yorkers to have "low expectations" for summer with respect to beaches, public gatherings and other major events, Cuomo said Sunday there must be summer activities in New York City. He says people can't be locked up in their homes in a densely populated urban area like this one through August.



Antibody tests suggest 2.7 million New Yorkers have been infected

Antibodies don't guarantee immunity from reinfection, but the nation's top experts, including Dr. Anthony Fauci, say it's reasonable to assume someone who has had the virus won't get it again. At least not in the immediate future.

A new Siena College poll released Monday brings home the grim reality of the pandemic - about one in three New Yorkers say they know someone who has died from the coronavirus. New York, New Jersey and Connecticut have lost more than 25,000 people to date. 



And after?

Dr. Deborah Birx, the White House Coronavirus Task Force response coordinator, says social distancing will be needed through summer to ensure public safety. Harvard researchers say such the practice could be necessary into 2022 barring a vaccine for the coronavirus, which could be 18 months out, or an effective treatment for it.

Thus far, clinical trials for experimental drugs have not spurred optimism. Hydroxychloroquine had been touted by the president; after further study, the FDA now advises against using that drug outside of medical settings. A draft document showing inconclusive results for another drug, Gilead's remdesivir, showed disappointing results. Gilead says the findings were inconclusive.



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We seem to have a new breed of people who are happy to claim moral superiority because they care about lives claimed by the coronavirus, when most of them couldn't care less about preventable deaths literally weeks ago. You guys are worse than pompous vegans. 

10 million people die yearly of hunger when we have 10 times that number of obese people walking around, what have you done for that?

If you want to care about lives taken by the virus, go ahead, do that, but know that you're not a better person just because you care more about people of your color dying, since a part of this new caring passion of yours is born out of pure selfishness, those who want to have a conversation about life going back to normal are not heartless monsters, no more than you are anyway.

Not to mention, lockdowns are being eased now while fully knowing that deaths will spike despite all the measures that will stay in place, in other words, at one point, everyone is going to balance the loss of lives against loss of jobs and livelihood, it's happening right now at an international level, so just because some of us are comfortable having that conversation weeks earlier than the rest doesn't make them assholes.....



France and Spain to ease coronavirus lockdowns

Edouard Philippe, prime minister of France, said the move was necessary in order to avert the risk of economic “collapse”.

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Businesses in France could reopen from May 11, except cafés, restaurants and large meeting places such as big museums and cinemas, although teleworking should be continued wherever possible for at least the first three weeks, he said. Local public transport will be largely restored, with the Paris metro and buses set to run at 70 per cent of normal capacity, although the plan is to avoid rush-hour crowding by encouraging companies to stagger working hours.

Passengers will be required to wear face masks. Long-distance travel will remain restricted to those on urgent professional or family business. Schools will reopen progressively, starting with nursery and primary schools and with attendance depending on agreement from parents, and class sizes will be limited to 15.

However, the ending of the lockdown would vary from place to place, Mr Philippe said. Departments would be labelled “red” or “green” on May 7 for the proposed easing of restrictions four days later depending on the local number of new cases as well as on the capacity for testing and receiving patients in hospital. Mr Philippe said beaches would remain closed until June 1 and that the 2019-20 professional football season would not resume. “We must protect the French without immobilising the country to the point where it collapses,” he told the National Assembly in Paris.

France has struggled to provide enough masks for its health workers and for the general population, a problem the prime minister admitted had aroused “incomprehension and anger” among the French. But the prime minister said the government was now procuring 100m surgical masks a week for health workers, and promised that there would be enough basic, washable masks for the general population by May 11.



LurkerJ said:

We seem to have a new breed of people who are happy to claim moral superiority because they care about lives claimed by the coronavirus, when most of them couldn't care less about preventable deaths literally weeks ago. You guys are worse than pompous vegans. 

10 million people die yearly of hunger when we have 10 times that number of obese people walking around, what have you done for that?

If you want to care about lives taken by the virus, go ahead, do that, but know that you're not a better person just because you care more about people of your color dying, since a part of this new caring passion of yours is born out of pure selfishness, those who want to have a conversation about life going back to normal are not heartless monsters, no more than you are anyway.

Not to mention, lockdowns are being eased now while fully knowing that deaths will spike despite all the measures that will stay in place, in other words, at one point, everyone is going to balance the loss of lives against loss of jobs and livelihood, it's happening right now at an international level, so just because some of us are comfortable having that conversation weeks earlier than the rest doesn't make them assholes.....

A good bunch of them are literal assholes though, I mean a lot of them voted for Trump.

I don't think anyone is against talking about opening up again, because it'll happen eventually anyway. But there is a big difference between talking about it or considering it and going on the streets to demand it NOW based on misguided values and paid by corporations.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

The lock down is pretty soft here anyway. Today I cycled through town and almost half the parking lots were filled again, construction work had resumed, some shops were open. This will cause some friction at some point between those that are allowed to work and those stuck without income. The soft lock down lengthens the duration for closing offices, restaurants and non essential stores.

What we have so far in Ontario:

State of emergency declared on March 17th while closing down most businesses over the next few days.

March 16th to 23rd: 2.44x increase in daily reported cases
March 23rd to 30th: 3.94x increase in daily reported cases
March 30th to April 6th: 1.32x increase in daily reported cases
April 6th to 13th: 1.19x increase in daily reported cases
April 13th to 20th: 1.32x increase in daily reported cases
April 20th to 27th: 0.80x decrease in daily reported cases

So it took us over 4 weeks to peak with the softer lock down instead of 2 weeks.

Currently the daily decline is 0.97x. Or every 100 infected people still infect 97 new people. There's not much room to experiment with re-openings when you're still this close to positive growth. The reported deaths may or may not have peaked yet, it's back up to where it was 11 days ago. Not declining yet.



Hmm, fire department is on the move. Nope, it's a birthday celebration lol. Volunteer fire fighter followed by a few dozen cars with balloons hanging out the windows.



Pyro as Bill said:

The War caused the 70% collapse and was one long 6 year depression.
The period after the War is literally referred to as the Golden Age of Capitalism because of the unprecedented levels of growth.
The depopulation during the War didn't cause a post-war depression. It did the complete opposite.

"Collapse" is a strong word. Either way, I have provided the evidence, you are more than welcome to read it.

Pyro as Bill said:

Good. Empires are expensive. We became richer than ever after 'losing' the Empire.
Hong Kong didn't leave until 1997 and they'd have stayed if they'd had the choice or China agreed to extend the lease.

Empire - noun
1.an extensive group of states or countries ruled over by a single monarch......
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_realm 

The Hong Kong issue was just a part of a long process, the loosing of territories under British control happened at the end of world war 2 and gradually continued well into the 90's.

Arguably, Hong Kong was worse off for it too.

KiigelHeart said:

What's your obsession with United States? While I think it's very unlikely this virus could've been defeated even with instant proactive measures, there's plenty of other countries who messed up as well. This wasn't the first wide-spread disease Europe had to deal with either, and things have been just as bad. This hindsight bullshit isn't helping anyone at the moment, there's time for that later, hopefully. Now would be the time to try to avoid a future where we'll be fighting COVID-19 while dealing with economic crisis. How it's done I'm not sure, but months and months of lockdown will lead  to that future.

edit. well fuck it after considering it a while I think I do value money over health.. I risk my own life and health for a lousy paycheck. You got me.

Those other countries aren't making stupid statements in the middle of a pandemic and providing a high quality level of comical entertainment... The United States is providing the information and the evidence of what not to do right now... And the world needs to take note of those lessons and not emulate their same responses now or in the future.

Yes those other countries that stuffed up deserve criticism as well... And need to be called out and acknowledged. - The thing about hindsight is that, the world should have used it to be better prepared for the Coronavirus as this isn't the first virus that threatened the modern world, but it seems only a few countries took lessons from the Swine Flu and Bird Flu.

LurkerJ said:

We seem to have a new breed of people who are happy to claim moral superiority because they care about lives claimed by the coronavirus, when most of them couldn't care less about preventable deaths literally weeks ago. You guys are worse than pompous vegans.

Absolutely not even remotely comparable.

I cared about life, property and the environment before the Coronavirus happened, protecting life is literally part of my job description, so yes, I did care about preventable deaths before this shit happened.

LurkerJ said:

10 million people die yearly of hunger when we have 10 times that number of obese people walking around, what have you done for that?

Donated to charitable causes, assisted charitable causes.
I literally put my life on the line to save others on a frequent basis.

What have you done?

LurkerJ said:

If you want to care about lives taken by the virus, go ahead, do that, but know that you're not a better person just because you care more about people of your color dying, since a part of this new caring passion of yours is born out of pure selfishness, those who want to have a conversation about life going back to normal are not heartless monsters, no more than you are anyway.

Do not turn this into a racial issue, that would be highly disingenuous when that hasn't even been a point of contention in this thread.
Literally don't do it. Consider it a warning.

Life going back to normal during the middle of a pandemic is going to cause more deaths.

It's a blatant fact that social distancing is a big factor in reducing virulent spread, returning things back to normal completely undermines that effort and will prolong the pain and suffering.

LurkerJ said:


Not to mention, lockdowns are being eased now while fully knowing that deaths will spike despite all the measures that will stay in place, in other words, at one point, everyone is going to balance the loss of lives against loss of jobs and livelihood, it's happening right now at an international level, so just because some of us are comfortable having that conversation weeks earlier than the rest doesn't make them assholes.....

If the virus has been defeated for weeks, then of course lockdowns can viably start to be lifted without fear of spiked cases.

Governments need to step in and help the vulnerable during this crisis so that people can stay isolated for as long as possible.

Last edited by Pemalite - on 28 April 2020

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