Forums - Movies Discussion - Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker final trailer

Here is hoping it isn't another Solo. Not sure what was off about Solo, but I was disappointed. I feel that it didn't really add anything to the Star Wars universe. I did like Rogue One though.



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My beliefs lean more towards Democrat but I frequent lots of Republican/Conservative forums. I also have a lot of Republican friends. It's kinda shocking how often the same arguments, verbage, and even the same "clever' jokes pop up time and time again. I'm sure many of them feel they think for themselves but (for example) next time there's a stabbing in some foreign country, there will be a hundred comments saying "Ban assault knives! Ha ha."

I see that same behavior when people defend The Last Jedi. "You just don't like a female lead." or "It didn't follow the story you had in your head." or any number of premanufactured arguments that are repeated ad nauseum. I'm sure people who say these things think they're being original but...

It gets frustrating especially when there's a ton of videos that easily explain what's wrong with the movie. I used to defend Batman v Superman. I'd say "You just don't get it", "You're not a real comics fan", 'You're just a Marvel fanboy" or whatever. Turns out, BvS was just a bad movie. I didn't want to admit it.

TLJ is a bad movie (IMO) It does a lot of things wrong. It's cool if you like it. I still like BvS but I won't ever dismiss the opinion of someone who criticizes it, anymore. But  that doesn't mean that following movies can't be good. I WANT Rise of Skywalker to be great! We shall see.



mZuzek loves Smeags. 😢

d21lewis said:
EricFabian said:

maybe not in any gaming forum, but in the real life:

https://www.digitalspy.com/movies/a29543947/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-avengers-endgame-record/

I'm not saying the movie is gonna flop. It's not. It's going to do phenomenally well and I'm gonna contribute to it. What I'm going to say is what everyone else said when they heard that Rise of Skywalker destroyed Endgame's pre ticket sales; "What the hell is Atom Tickets?'

A company that Disney just so happens to own a large piece of. An even larger piece, now, since they own Fox's share, as well. 

Of course, Fandango said Solo was outpacing Black Panther, and we all know how that turned out.

Last edited by thismeintiel - on 25 October 2019

I'm still going to guess that Luke Skywalker is the bad guy.

I'm just so convinced that that 'emperor' laugh in the previous trailer was not the emperor but Mark Hamill doing his Joker laugh lol



KLAMarine said:
Shadow1980 said:

And at least the Disney-era films are objectively better as films than the prequels. George Lucas was the kind of filmmaker that worked best within limitations. He was limited by a budget and by editors in A New Hope, and he didn't even direct TESB and ROTJ. The Special Editions were just a taste of what he could do when he wasn't limited to practical effects, and the prequels showed exactly what kind of filmmaker he was when given full creative control and freed from most constraints and anyone to tell him "no." Executive meddling quite often produces a compromised product, but in some cases it's needed. Lucas has a vivid imagination and a lot of vision, but he also needed limitations and clear boundaries and maybe even kept out of the director's chair. The prequels are not bad films (I still watch them and enjoy them, warts and all), but they could have been so much better than they were. The new sequels and spin-off films have far better acting, cinematography, writing, etc.

Don't listen to the haters. The Last Jedi is definitely worth watching. I thought it was a great movie. It wasn't perfect. I thought it had some minor pacing issues in the middle act, and an example of a character doing the whole "stare aghast at the horrible thing for too long before doing anything about it" routine, but I'd rate it a solid 9/10, and it keeps getting better with every rewatch. As mentioned above, as a film it was objectively good (hence the good critic reviews and multiple awards). This whole "TLJ ruined Star Wars forever" meme is just some fans being hyperbolic. Star Wars has supposedly been "RUINED FOREVER" more times than I can recall: Ewoks, the changes made in the Special Editions, Jar Jar, midichlorians, "I hate sand," "NOOOOO!," and so on. If Star Wars survived all of that, I think it can survive The Last Jedi. I think most of the hate is just fans frustrated that the film didn't confirm their headcanon regarding things like how certain characters ought to be portrayed, though some of the hate is clearly political, and comes from the same "anti-SJW" circles that railed against Captain Marvel and the new She-Ra and other films and shows they perceived as "too woke" for their tastes.

I think The Last Jedi is still available on Netflix, so if you have the free time go watch it and decide for yourself if you like it.

"Disney-era films are objectively better as films than the prequels."

>Not too sure about this. At least the prequels had an end in mind: the rise of Darth Vader. Sequels don't feel like there was a plan to begin with. SOMEHOW, the empire is back and they managed to build a XXL death star without anyone noticing. Rebel alliance are rebels again SOMEHOW.

Thank you!

These were my thoughts while I was watching TFA:

- "Wait, didn't they defeat the empire at the end of RoTJ? How come everybody is in the exact same place as they were 30 years ago?"
It wasn't until 40 mins into the movie that I realized that the empire was now being called "The New Order," and the Rebel Alliance was now being called "The Resistance."

- "Ok so, where is Luke? Oh, so he left.. hmm.. ok.. better there be a dam good reason to explain why he abandoned everyone to die.. "

- "So this stormtrooper, who had never held a lightsaber before, is actually trading blows with a Sith Lord.."

- "This Rey girl seems nice. She is a survivor who has been forced to fend for herself, I like that. Wait, how is she able to perform a mind control trick if she didn't even know what the force was a couple of days ago? Wait, did she just defeat a Sith Lord?"

That last point is the one that bothers me the most because I keep trying to picture Ashoka defeating Count Dooku in the first movie she appeared in, or Ezra Bridget defeating Darth Vader in the first season of Rebels, and I just can't. It sounds ridiculous to even say it.

How ANYONE could look at this and actually call it "good writing" is beyond me.

PS: Back then I gave TFA a pass because I convinced myself that everything was going to make sense after watching TLJ.



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Lonely_Dolphin said:

"Don't listen to the haters" a.k.a. live in ignorance to the actual criticisms and just blindly believe that what you say are the reasons behind the hate.

People don't like it because it was bad, it's that simple. Anything else is your self delusion to avoid accepting this inconvenient truth. Also, the original trilogy isn't headcannon lol, you can't just ignore it and make Luke change drastically for the sake of a dumb plot.

I liked the movie, therefore I'm deluded, and I'm in the wrong for encouraging others to watch it instead of listening to people who say "don't bother"?

Yeah, sure. How about you bite me, okay?

Even I don't think TLJ is perfect, as I clearly stated, but I think the most strident criticisms of it are unfounded.

Luke's characterization seems like the most common target. Well, to me Luke feels completely in character. The pessimistic, defeatist, emotional Luke growing up to be an old pessimistic, defeatist, emotionally broken hermit. It's his natural disposition. Even Yoda calls him out on his old bad habits. And the idea that Luke Skywalker, the man who did this in a moment of anger and weakness:

...might also in a moment of weakness ignite his lightsaber after seeing what lied within Ben's mind but still refrain from striking him down seems completely plausible to me. It seems to me that a lot of fans had this idea in their head that Old Luke was supposed to have become some wise Jedi Master, an Obi Wan 2.0 or whatever. Or something more akin to however Luke was portrayed in the old Legends material. Instead we got OT Luke with grey hair and some people called foul. In other words, their headcanon was ignored. A legacy character's portrayal not conforming to your personal idea of how they should be portrayed does not make the movie bad.

What's next? "Rey is a Mary Sue!"? Please. She's even more flawed in this film. Still stubborn, impulsive, naive, hotheaded, and nothing goes according to plan for her (in keeping with "failure" as an overarching theme of the movie). There's nothing about her any more Mary Sue-ish than, say, Luke using the Force to get the kill shot on the Death Star despite next to no training, or young Anakin whoops-ing his way to getting the victory for the good guys at the Battle of Naboo.

Snoke's death? Not really much different than Palpatine in the OT. Snoke and the Emperor were both one-note Bigger Bads who served as a plot device to advance another character's story arc and spent their brief screen times engaging in evil gloating. Vader killed Palpatine to save his son and redeem himself. Kylo Ren killed Snoke to achieve his own goals. And just like Snoke, Palpatine had no character background or anything. His history was a blank. We just knew he was the leader of the bad guys. Palpatine didn't become fleshed out until the prequels. Snoke may be the Bigger Bad, but Kylo Ren is the main antagonist, and it's his story that matters on the villainous side. The fact that some people didn't get the back story they wanted out of Snoke does not make the movie bad.

The "Holdo Maneuver"? Pointless technical quibbles easily handwaved away, and such minutiae not immediately satisfying your questions does not make a movie bad (as if the writers are obligated to explain to you in the film itself how they view the economics and tactical usefulness of a lightspeed kamikaze in a way that satisfies you). And besides, it's an awesome scene.

Let's be honest. There is precious little in the way of legitimate film criticism coming from the vocal minority that are TLJ's haters. It's not a bad movie by any stretch. Rabid fans not liking something does not make that film bad. Ishtar, Howard the Duck, Plan 9 from Outer Space, Manos: The Hands of Fate, Dragonball Evolution, and the works of Uwe Boll and Seltzer & Friedberg are bad movies. The Last Jedi is not, even if it doesn't satisfy your needs and desires as a fan.

KLAMarine said:

"Disney-era films are objectively better as films than the prequels."

>Not too sure about this. At least the prequels had an end in mind: the rise of Darth Vader. Sequels don't feel like there was a plan to begin with. SOMEHOW, the empire is back and they managed to build a XXL death star without anyone noticing. Rebel alliance are rebels again SOMEHOW.

Rotten Tomatoes scores for all the Star Wars films:

A New Hope: 93%
The Empire Strikes Back: 95%
Return of the Jedi: 81%

The Phantom Menace: 53%
Attack of the Clones: 66%
Revenge of the Sith: 80%

The Force Awakens: 93%
The Last Jedi: 91%
Rogue One: 84%
Solo: 70%

The general consensus among critics is that the Episodes I & II are average or mediocre films, with RotS being pretty good (and the general consensus among most of the general audience agrees with that assessment, with RotS being considered the high mark of an overall unimpressive prequel trilogy). Meanwhile, the general critical consensus is that, Episodes VII & VIII are excellent, on par with the first two films, and that Rogue One is pretty good, too, and Solo merely decent at best. I think that's a fair assessment of the Disney-era films.

I know it might be controversial to say so, but film critics are usually right (note the qualifying language I'm using and will continue to use; critics are humans and therefore not perfect). They are typically people that went to film school, studied film seriously as art, and are generally best equipped to be objective about what makes for good film, such as the quality of its writing, cinematography, screenplay, acting, set/art/costume design, etc. General audiences are not (fans especially can be too obsessive to be objective, case in point the more toxic segments of Star Wars fandom). When critics universally praise a movie, it's probably a good movie, even if it's not for everyone. When they universally pan a movie, it's probably a bad movie, even if some people may unironically enjoy it as dumb fun (and there's nothing wrong with enjoying an objectively bad movie). Audiences too often think that critics are only right if the critics' opinions are congruent with their own. If critics praise a movie they don't like or pan a movie they do like, they call foul, but if their tastes agree with that of the critics they nod their head in agreement. We see this all the time. As an example of the latter, every time "Anticipated Blockbuster X" gets glowing reviews the people looking forward to the movie trot out the RT score to say "See! It's a good movie!" Meanwhile, movies that are legitimately mediocre films sometimes become hits with general audiences (live-action Transformers, anyone?).

Also, your questions about the First Order and the Resistance are easily answered. It's clear from the films that the Empire didn't just vanish, but reconstituted itself under a new name, and that the Resistance is Leia's own personal paramilitary organization separate from the New Republic that, unlike the Republic, sees the FO for the threat it is. With only the Resistance seeing the FO as a serious threat and the FO holding up in the Unknown Regions (a barely-explored part of the galaxy that was established in the fiction long ago and retained as canon), the idea that they could keep Starkiller Base a secret (hell, the Rebellion only learned about the DS2 because Palpatine let them). It's easy to put two and two together. There's also a lot of details in sources outside the films. If you want a wiki summary, here you go:

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Resistance
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/First_Order
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Cold_war



d21lewis said:

My beliefs lean more towards Democrat but I frequent lots of Republican/Conservative forums. I also have a lot of Republican friends. It's kinda shocking how often the same arguments, verbage, and even the same "clever' jokes pop up time and time again. I'm sure many of them feel they think for themselves but (for example) next time there's a stabbing in some foreign country, there will be a hundred comments saying "Ban assault knives! Ha ha."

I see that same behavior when people defend The Last Jedi. "You just don't like a female lead." or "It didn't follow the story you had in your head." or any number of premanufactured arguments that are repeated ad nauseum. I'm sure people who say these things think they're being original but...

It gets frustrating especially when there's a ton of videos that easily explain what's wrong with the movie. I used to defend Batman v Superman. I'd say "You just don't get it", "You're not a real comics fan", 'You're just a Marvel fanboy" or whatever. Turns out, BvS was just a bad movie. I didn't want to admit it.

TLJ is a bad movie (IMO) It does a lot of things wrong. It's cool if you like it. I still like BvS but I won't ever dismiss the opinion of someone who criticizes it, anymore. But  that doesn't mean that following movies can't be good. I WANT Rise of Skywalker to be great! We shall see.

Agreed! Some of these talking points really DO really remind me of political arguments with how irrelevant they are to the actual topic at hand and how they all seem to be repeating the same points - often to attack the person themselves. Which is pretty bizarre to me when we're dealing with a run-of-the-mill sci-fi film. I mean honestly if it didn't have the Star Wars name slapped on it nobody would give this cheese fest a second look lol.

There's a youtube video (Mauler or something) that dissects and breaks the Last Jedi down to an absurd level of detail and outlines all the things wrong with the film with a ton of highly insightful and nuanced points - and this video series was like 5 hours long! And yes, I'm not too proud to admit I watched all 5 hours lol. It was at that point I realized "ok, this film is OBJECTIVELY bad." I mean, of course you can still like it, more power to ya if you do, (and Mauler mentions this too) but some of these people not only argue that it's actually great, but that those who DON'T like it are the problem in some way. It's laughable. 

It's like, I enjoy Revenge of the Sith. At the same time, I recognize it's objectively NOT a good film. It's a guilty pleasure. And I CERTAINLY am not going to engage in personal attacks on those who DON'T enjoy the film!

Of course that's not to say there isn't a degree of subjectivity in art and entertainment. Of course there is. But there IS also an objective element to some of it. Otherwise someone can simply shit on a painting or something and call it art lol. You've got to draw the line somewhere or it's all meaningless. 



 

"We hold these truths t-be self-ful evident. All men and women created by the.. Go-you know the.. you know the thing!" - Joe Biden

DarthMetalliCube said:
d21lewis said:

My beliefs lean more towards Democrat but I frequent lots of Republican/Conservative forums. I also have a lot of Republican friends. It's kinda shocking how often the same arguments, verbage, and even the same "clever' jokes pop up time and time again. I'm sure many of them feel they think for themselves but (for example) next time there's a stabbing in some foreign country, there will be a hundred comments saying "Ban assault knives! Ha ha."

I see that same behavior when people defend The Last Jedi. "You just don't like a female lead." or "It didn't follow the story you had in your head." or any number of premanufactured arguments that are repeated ad nauseum. I'm sure people who say these things think they're being original but...

It gets frustrating especially when there's a ton of videos that easily explain what's wrong with the movie. I used to defend Batman v Superman. I'd say "You just don't get it", "You're not a real comics fan", 'You're just a Marvel fanboy" or whatever. Turns out, BvS was just a bad movie. I didn't want to admit it.

TLJ is a bad movie (IMO) It does a lot of things wrong. It's cool if you like it. I still like BvS but I won't ever dismiss the opinion of someone who criticizes it, anymore. But  that doesn't mean that following movies can't be good. I WANT Rise of Skywalker to be great! We shall see.

Agreed! Some of these talking points really DO really remind me of political arguments with how irrelevant they are to the actual topic at hand and how they all seem to be repeating the same points - often to attack the person themselves. Which is pretty bizarre to me when we're dealing with a run-of-the-mill sci-fi film. I mean honestly if it didn't have the Star Wars name slapped on it nobody would give this cheese fest a second look lol.

There's a youtube video (Mauler or something) that dissects and breaks the Last Jedi down to an absurd level of detail and outlines all the things wrong with the film with a ton of highly insightful and nuanced points - and this video series was like 5 hours long! And yes, I'm not too proud to admit I watched all 5 hours lol. It was at that point I realized "ok, this film is OBJECTIVELY bad." I mean, of course you can still like it, more power to ya if you do, (and Mauler mentions this too) but some of these people not only argue that it's actually great, but that those who DON'T like it are the problem in some way. It's laughable. 

It's like, I enjoy Revenge of the Sith. At the same time, I recognize it's objectively NOT a good film. It's a guilty pleasure. And I CERTAINLY am not going to engage in personal attacks on those who DON'T enjoy the film!

Of course that's not to say there isn't a degree of subjectivity in art and entertainment. Of course there is. But there IS also an objective element to some of it. Otherwise someone can simply shit on a painting or something and call it art lol. You've got to draw the line somewhere or it's all meaningless. 

I'm stuck at work for the next 11 hours and nothing's going on here. I think I'm gonna try to find that video...



mZuzek loves Smeags. 😢

Shadow1980 said:

I liked the movie, therefore I'm deluded, and I'm in the wrong for encouraging others to watch it instead of listening to people who say "don't bother"?

Yeah, sure. How about you bite me, okay?

Even I don't think TLJ is perfect, as I clearly stated, but I think the most strident criticisms of it are unfounded.

Luke's characterization seems like the most common target. Well, to me Luke feels completely in character. The pessimistic, defeatist, emotional Luke growing up to be an old pessimistic, defeatist, emotionally broken hermit. It's his natural disposition. Even Yoda calls him out on his old bad habits. And the idea that Luke Skywalker, the man who did this in a moment of anger and weakness:

...might also in a moment of weakness ignite his lightsaber after seeing what lied within Ben's mind but still refrain from striking him down seems completely plausible to me. It seems to me that a lot of fans had this idea in their head that Old Luke was supposed to have become some wise Jedi Master, an Obi Wan 2.0 or whatever. Or something more akin to however Luke was portrayed in the old Legends material. Instead we got OT Luke with grey hair and some people called foul. In other words, their headcanon was ignored. A legacy character's portrayal not conforming to your personal idea of how they should be portrayed does not make the movie bad.

What's next? "Rey is a Mary Sue!"? Please. She's even more flawed in this film. Still stubborn, impulsive, naive, hotheaded, and nothing goes according to plan for her (in keeping with "failure" as an overarching theme of the movie). There's nothing about her any more Mary Sue-ish than, say, Luke using the Force to get the kill shot on the Death Star despite next to no training, or young Anakin whoops-ing his way to getting the victory for the good guys at the Battle of Naboo.

Snoke's death? Not really much different than Palpatine in the OT. Snoke and the Emperor were both one-note Bigger Bads who served as a plot device to advance another character's story arc and spent their brief screen times engaging in evil gloating. Vader killed Palpatine to save his son and redeem himself. Kylo Ren killed Snoke to achieve his own goals. And just like Snoke, Palpatine had no character background or anything. His history was a blank. We just knew he was the leader of the bad guys. Palpatine didn't become fleshed out until the prequels. Snoke may be the Bigger Bad, but Kylo Ren is the main antagonist, and it's his story that matters on the villainous side. The fact that some people didn't get the back story they wanted out of Snoke does not make the movie bad.

The "Holdo Maneuver"? Pointless technical quibbles easily handwaved away, and such minutiae not immediately satisfying your questions does not make a movie bad (as if the writers are obligated to explain to you in the film itself how they view the economics and tactical usefulness of a lightspeed kamikaze in a way that satisfies you). And besides, it's an awesome scene.

Let's be honest. There is precious little in the way of legitimate film criticism coming from the vocal minority that are TLJ's haters. It's not a bad movie by any stretch. Rabid fans not liking something does not make that film bad. Ishtar, Howard the Duck, Plan 9 from Outer Space, Manos: The Hands of Fate, Dragonball Evolution, and the works of Uwe Boll and Seltzer & Friedberg are bad movies. The Last Jedi is not, even if it doesn't satisfy your needs and desires as a fan.

You're definitely deluded if you think that's why I'm calling you that despite what I actually said. And yes you're in the wrong for encouraging ignorance and misrepresenting the actual criticisms.

No, Luke is actually relevant to the conflict in the OT, in that clip he's directly in the action, not cowardly hiding away despite his defeats and losses. Moreso, you're not fooling anyone, we all know what happens next, nor are we fool enough to equate all the bad Vader has done to a random dream vision. There is simply no way Luke, who abandoned his training with Yoda to save his friends, would suddenly just leave them to fend for themselves while he milked alien tits.

Rest of your post is just bad excuses, the existence of other movies don't make the flaws in this one ok. Rey in the TLJ defeats Luke, defeats Elite guards in a laughably bad fight scene, and lifts a ton of boulders all without any training (inb4 wildly swinging her sword against a rock alone for a few minutes is training). The only real threat to her was Snoke, but he gone now, and besides how comically dumb it was, that's the main issue with his death. The First Order isn't threatening now, Rey has already beaten Kylo and that commander guy is constantly made a fool of.

Your defense of the Holdo maneuver is basically "don't question it, just enjoy movie and get excited for next movie." Yeah no, a criticism isn't invalid because it's a criticism lol. It's a very relevant point as such a maneuver could have been used in pretty much every conflict in Star Wars. From now on everytime we see a battle we'll have to think "well why don't they just lightspeed their problems away, why waste time and lives trying to outmaneuver their foes in direct combat?" You wanna turn your brain off while watching movies, fine, but it's unreasonable to expect everyone else to do so.

It's not any one point that makes this movie bad, it's the dozens of them put together. The criticisms you listed are just a few of many.



It’s gonna be terrible, just like every other Star Wars movie. Dumbest franchise ever. Only good Star Wars ever made were the knights of the old republic games.