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Forums - Politics Discussion - Human right violations in persecution of Julian Assange?

vivster said:

@Chrkeller

DonFerrari said:

So should people that defraud billions or trillions from the government not go to jail?

The best punishment for financial crimes is financial punishment. That means stripping them off their wealth forever until they can pay back what they stole plus fine and as an added bonus community work on weekends. It's a lot healthier than prison and it's beneficial for everyone.

Prison should be to protect people on the outside from violent people not as an extended slap on the wrist. A violent person goes there to cool off, so that he may become non-violent once he is released. There is really no point in putting non-violent people there. At some point the harshness of the punishment becomes irrelevant and there is no difference between doing community work for life or rotting in prison.

In my opinion punishment should focus more on the improvement of the individual and society rather than just be pure punishment with no benefit whatsoever.

Good luck finding every single penny of money that person defrauded to take back, also good luck on preventing that outside of jail he don't use his network to still benefit old acquaintances and indirectly receive enough "help" that he lives a comfortable life outside of jail even doing "community work".

There isn't many things more violent than robbing trillion dollars from taxpayers and through very inneficient healthcare, security and others see thousand people die. That is much more violent than shooting someone. 



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

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DonFerrari said:
vivster said:

@Chrkeller

The best punishment for financial crimes is financial punishment. That means stripping them off their wealth forever until they can pay back what they stole plus fine and as an added bonus community work on weekends. It's a lot healthier than prison and it's beneficial for everyone.

Prison should be to protect people on the outside from violent people not as an extended slap on the wrist. A violent person goes there to cool off, so that he may become non-violent once he is released. There is really no point in putting non-violent people there. At some point the harshness of the punishment becomes irrelevant and there is no difference between doing community work for life or rotting in prison.

In my opinion punishment should focus more on the improvement of the individual and society rather than just be pure punishment with no benefit whatsoever.

Good luck finding every single penny of money that person defrauded to take back, also good luck on preventing that outside of jail he don't use his network to still benefit old acquaintances and indirectly receive enough "help" that he lives a comfortable life outside of jail even doing "community work".

There isn't many things more violent than robbing trillion dollars from taxpayers and through very inneficient healthcare, security and others see thousand people die. That is much more violent than shooting someone. 

Do you really believe that someone who's just been sentenced for financial crimes and lost all of his possessions will just go out and do major crimes again? Do you believe his associates will still associate with someone who's monitored? If you believe that a person cannot stop doing crimes even after they've been sentenced you might as well just kill them. No amount of prison time will change that person.

The problems you are describing are rooted in the system and not single individuals. Capturing them and throwing them in jail won't help anyone and be nothing more than a drag on society. Kill them or set them free, prison is a no-win game.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

vivster said:

@Chrkeller

DonFerrari said:

So should people that defraud billions or trillions from the government not go to jail?

The best punishment for financial crimes is financial punishment. That means stripping them off their wealth forever until they can pay back what they stole plus fine and as an added bonus community work on weekends. It's a lot healthier than prison and it's beneficial for everyone.

Prison should be to protect people on the outside from violent people not as an extended slap on the wrist. A violent person goes there to cool off, so that he may become non-violent once he is released. There is really no point in putting non-violent people there. At some point the harshness of the punishment becomes irrelevant and there is no difference between doing community work for life or rotting in prison.

In my opinion punishment should focus more on the improvement of the individual and society rather than just be pure punishment with no benefit whatsoever.

There are several flaws in that logic though.
You assume that people who commit financial crimes to be wealthy. So what's with a poor guy who is in serious debt and yet keeps buying TVs, mobile phones etc. with money he doesn't have? Do you think he cares that he gets a financial punishment? You can't stop his future actions that way.

So the alternative would be community work. And how exactly would you enforce that? A fine wouldn't help at all as stated above so the only chance would be to threaten him with a prison sentence.



DonFerrari said:
vivster said:
Prison should never be a punishment for non-violent crimes.

So should people that defraud billions or trillions from the government not go to jail?

I'm failing how to see that makes sense considering the current state of the economy if you follow the idea that he fixed the election somehow.



vivster said:
DonFerrari said:

Good luck finding every single penny of money that person defrauded to take back, also good luck on preventing that outside of jail he don't use his network to still benefit old acquaintances and indirectly receive enough "help" that he lives a comfortable life outside of jail even doing "community work".

There isn't many things more violent than robbing trillion dollars from taxpayers and through very inneficient healthcare, security and others see thousand people die. That is much more violent than shooting someone. 

Do you really believe that someone who's just been sentenced for financial crimes and lost all of his possessions will just go out and do major crimes again? Do you believe his associates will still associate with someone who's monitored? If you believe that a person cannot stop doing crimes even after they've been sentenced you might as well just kill them. No amount of prison time will change that person.

The problems you are describing are rooted in the system and not single individuals. Capturing them and throwing them in jail won't help anyone and be nothing more than a drag on society. Kill them or set them free, prison is a no-win game.

Not sure where you are getting your law information from.

But exactly because people that are facing severe law enforcement usually keeps their ties (after all they are mostly unknown to the prosecutor) and several of them try to jeopardize investigation or trial that we do have preventive jail time to cut the ties of that person with his associates.

You are assuming he lost all his possessions. He at most lost the possessions the prosecution could find, very possibly most of the money is still located in places prosecution have no idea about.

Also if that person have a lot of network he also have chance knowledge and could talk about the other people to have a smaller conviction. So those people could keep giving him some money for him to keep shut.

I would be fine with killing them. But Brazil doesn't allow capital punishment. Well even USA don't allow for corruption, on this China is better off than us.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

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teamsilent13 said:
DonFerrari said:

So should people that defraud billions or trillions from the government not go to jail?

I'm failing how to see that makes sense considering the current state of the economy if you follow the idea that he fixed the election somehow.

Not sure where you are coming from.

I wasn't talking about Assange on the question. I'm asking about corrupts in general.

And yes if someone manipulate election or economy to defraud a lot of people he should be in jail as well.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Barozi said:
vivster said:

@Chrkeller

The best punishment for financial crimes is financial punishment. That means stripping them off their wealth forever until they can pay back what they stole plus fine and as an added bonus community work on weekends. It's a lot healthier than prison and it's beneficial for everyone.

Prison should be to protect people on the outside from violent people not as an extended slap on the wrist. A violent person goes there to cool off, so that he may become non-violent once he is released. There is really no point in putting non-violent people there. At some point the harshness of the punishment becomes irrelevant and there is no difference between doing community work for life or rotting in prison.

In my opinion punishment should focus more on the improvement of the individual and society rather than just be pure punishment with no benefit whatsoever.

There are several flaws in that logic though.
You assume that people who commit financial crimes to be wealthy. So what's with a poor guy who is in serious debt and yet keeps buying TVs, mobile phones etc. with money he doesn't have? Do you think he cares that he gets a financial punishment? You can't stop his future actions that way.

So the alternative would be community work. And how exactly would you enforce that? A fine wouldn't help at all as stated above so the only chance would be to threaten him with a prison sentence.

You don't even go to jail for that, unless you haven't paid your taxes (that's tax evading) or neglect child support.

His actions will stop when no bank lends him money. And that happens fast. Then he'll be stripped off his posessions to pay his debts and find himself living under a bridge. Sounds like a good enough deterrent to me.



Player2 said:
Barozi said:

There are several flaws in that logic though.
You assume that people who commit financial crimes to be wealthy. So what's with a poor guy who is in serious debt and yet keeps buying TVs, mobile phones etc. with money he doesn't have? Do you think he cares that he gets a financial punishment? You can't stop his future actions that way.

So the alternative would be community work. And how exactly would you enforce that? A fine wouldn't help at all as stated above so the only chance would be to threaten him with a prison sentence.

You don't even go to jail for that, unless you haven't paid your taxes (that's tax evading) or neglect child support.

His actions will stop when no bank lends him money. And that happens fast. Then he'll be stripped off his posessions to pay his debts and find himself living under a bridge. Sounds like a good enough deterrent to me.

There's no bank involved in my example. He doesn't need money as that guy can just order his stuff and "pay later" (which he of course doesn't). He gets the goods, sells them to someone else, uses the money to buy food, alcohol, cigarettes or anything else that can't be stripped off of him.

If you do that on purpose, meaning you knew in advance that your debt is so big that you couldn't ever pay the money when you accepted the contract then you can face prison as this is a case of fraud.

Also he can't be living under a bridge when he lives in a country with a working social security system.



Barozi said:

There's no bank involved in my example. He doesn't need money as that guy can just order his stuff and "pay later" (which he of course doesn't). He gets the goods, sells them to someone else, uses the money to buy food, alcohol, cigarettes or anything else that can't be stripped off of him.

If you do that on purpose, meaning you knew in advance that your debt is so big that you couldn't ever pay the money when you accepted the contract then you can face prison as this is a case of fraud.

Also he can't be living under a bridge when he lives in a country with a working social security system.

You are aware that's why credit rating exists in many countries? The second he does it once his rating will drop into a bad rating and he won't be able to do it again your example is literally a one time thing as the person won't be able to do it again until they rebuild their rating. You don't go to prison for such acts because the cost of the whole case and such is more then what will be owed so companies just write off what they're owed and hit your credit rating instead.



Barozi said:
vivster said:

@Chrkeller

The best punishment for financial crimes is financial punishment. That means stripping them off their wealth forever until they can pay back what they stole plus fine and as an added bonus community work on weekends. It's a lot healthier than prison and it's beneficial for everyone.

Prison should be to protect people on the outside from violent people not as an extended slap on the wrist. A violent person goes there to cool off, so that he may become non-violent once he is released. There is really no point in putting non-violent people there. At some point the harshness of the punishment becomes irrelevant and there is no difference between doing community work for life or rotting in prison.

In my opinion punishment should focus more on the improvement of the individual and society rather than just be pure punishment with no benefit whatsoever.

There are several flaws in that logic though.
You assume that people who commit financial crimes to be wealthy. So what's with a poor guy who is in serious debt and yet keeps buying TVs, mobile phones etc. with money he doesn't have? Do you think he cares that he gets a financial punishment? You can't stop his future actions that way.

So the alternative would be community work. And how exactly would you enforce that? A fine wouldn't help at all as stated above so the only chance would be to threaten him with a prison sentence.

The people buying stuff even if they are indebted, have a problem. Prison isn't helping anyone in that case, they need psychological treatment. Besides, these people do negligable damage to the economy, one big speculation scheme does economic damage for thousand of these poor saps who have a shopping addiction.

And these guys usually have no problem doing their social or community work. If anything you can use prison as a fallback, if they slip their community work, although I suspect it will not change much.



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