By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Gaming Discussion - MS reveal of ballpark of Scarlett

SvennoJ said:
For reference, the xbox one x is about 4.5x the xbox one, so a smaller 'jump' than the mid gen refresh....

That jump is also majority GPU.



Around the Network

Lockhart could be dumped according to DF.



EricHiggin said:
SvennoJ said:
For reference, the xbox one x is about 4.5x the xbox one, so a smaller 'jump' than the mid gen refresh....

That jump is also majority GPU.

Yup, to go from 900p to 4K. 8K is just a supported resolution, as well as 120 fps. Not realistic.

And faster streaming from storage and much faster CPU is bad news for forwards compatibility. As Sony demonstrated with Spiderman, building games around much faster data loading means the games can't run on the older hardware. Which is fine, clean break for progress.



SvennoJ said:
For reference, the xbox one x is about 4.5x the xbox one, so a smaller 'jump' than the mid gen refresh....

I've been suggesting this since the X1X launched. If that box was $499 after 4 years into the generation, what can the next gen be at $399 in 3 years? Now its hard to imagine next gen being $399.

Although I would prefer the new consoles launch for $499 so they have better specs. Meanwhile rely on cross gen ports for those not willing to spend $499.

We at least know all the gaming crucial specs are getting a significant upgrade (GPU, CPU, RAM, storage). I would be perfectly content 12TF of GPU power. As long as AAA games are (or more regularly) 1440p-4K with 60 fps, more polish, faster loading, that will be a significant upgrade. I would gladly pay $499 for that.



Recently Completed
River City: Rival Showdown
for 3DS (3/5) - River City: Tokyo Rumble for 3DS (4/5) - Zelda: BotW for Wii U (5/5) - Zelda: BotW for Switch (5/5) - Zelda: Link's Awakening for Switch (4/5) - Rage 2 for X1X (4/5) - Rage for 360 (3/5) - Streets of Rage 4 for X1/PC (4/5) - Gears 5 for X1X (5/5) - Mortal Kombat 11 for X1X (5/5) - Doom 64 for N64 (emulator) (3/5) - Crackdown 3 for X1S/X1X (4/5) - Infinity Blade III - for iPad 4 (3/5) - Infinity Blade II - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Infinity Blade - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Wolfenstein: The Old Blood for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Origins for X1 (3/5) - Uncharted: Lost Legacy for PS4 (4/5) - EA UFC 3 for X1 (4/5) - Doom for X1 (4/5) - Titanfall 2 for X1 (4/5) - Super Mario 3D World for Wii U (4/5) - South Park: The Stick of Truth for X1 BC (4/5) - Call of Duty: WWII for X1 (4/5) -Wolfenstein II for X1 - (4/5) - Dead or Alive: Dimensions for 3DS (4/5) - Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite for X1 (3/5) - Halo Wars 2 for X1/PC (4/5) - Halo Wars: DE for X1 (4/5) - Tekken 7 for X1 (4/5) - Injustice 2 for X1 (4/5) - Yakuza 5 for PS3 (3/5) - Battlefield 1 (Campaign) for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Syndicate for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: MW Remastered for X1 (4/5) - Donkey Kong Country Returns for 3DS (4/5) - Forza Horizon 3 for X1 (5/5)

DonFerrari said:

Scarlett has a custom-designed Zen 2 processor from AMD, and it will feature an SSD that will reportedly help to dramatically improve load times and also function as virtual RAM.

Dear god. I can tell people are going to flog that as a selling point in their spec wars comparison.

The original Xbox had the option for developers to use some of the mechanical hard drive storage as "Virtual Ram". - The Xbox One has this capability also, it's not a new concept, it's not a selling point, PC has been doing it for 30+ years.

DonFerrari said:

So we have that Scarlet (probably Anaconda version) to be 4x more powerful than X1X, but for some reason a lot of people in VGC say it is impossible PS5 would be 2x more powerful than X1X. Seems like may are in for a surprise.

I agree. I think we can expect a significant step up over the Playstation 4 Pro and Xbox One X consoles, it's going to be significant, especially as next gen seems to be very focused on lighting, shadowing and reflections.

trasharmdsister12 said:

Who said it would be impossible for PS5 to be 2x more "powerful" than X1X?I think there's confusion in what was being referred to. Many people don't seem to understand that TFLOPS are not the be all and end all of performance calculation. So some people might be saying 12 TFLOPS are not possible in a console GPU in 2020. I'm not saying they're right or wrong, but that might be what they're trying to communicate but not understanding that a 12 TFLOPS GPU can be more than 2x more powerful than the X1X's GPU by being more efficient in some ways. It could event be less than 2x more powerful if something has gone horribly wrong with the design. lol

Even with Scarlet, saying it's 4x more "powerful" than X1X doesn't say much. 4x more powerful in what way? It's not suddenly going to be a 24 TFLOP GPU. It could be 4x more powerful at certain workloads. They could be talking about the CPU which wouldn't be hard to achieve going from 8 core Jaguar to 8 core Zen 2.

This is why I have been saying that flops is irrelevant on these forums for years. Because it simply is.
Now because we aren't seeing 12-24 Teraflop consoles next gen, people are thinking it's not a big leap in performance... When it actually is a big leap.

Rendering a games world is so much more than just the single precision floating point math that is used.

Random_Matt said:
CPU jump is around 4X, there you are.

Depends on clocks of course, if Microsoft dials the clock-rates on the 8-core Ryzen home (I.E. 3.6Ghz+) - Then I would expect more than just a 4x increase in CPU performance over Jaguar, it's Jaguar, it was a terrible low-end CPU even on release.

But if Microsoft is going conservative with CPU clocks in order to spend more TDP on the GPU part of the chip, then a 4x increase is pretty reasonable I guess, but I would hope for more.

haxxiy said:

It's 100% certain the GPU won't come nowhere close to 4 times and that was PR speak dude. Based on imprecision and half-truths. Come on. You're coming across as naive if anything.

Depends on the task... Remember this isn't the same Navi GPU that the PC is getting, it's a step up with dedicated Ray Tracing hardware, so Microsoft is likely including the capabilities of the Ray Tracing hardware in it's "performance calculations" so to speak.

jason1637 said:
I think both consoles are going to be very similar spec wise.

Probably a fair assessment. Although Sony has been pretty "mum" on dedicated hardware Ray Tracing, where-as Microsoft has come out and mentioned it, so if Scarlett has hardware Ray Tracing and the Playstation 5 doesn't, that could be a big selling point for the Xbox... And you can bet Microsoft will milk that.

DonFerrari said:

Well I doubt it because I'm pretty sure the CPU for next gen will be much more than 4x stronger than a potato.

My own guesstimate pegged it at around 8-10x, sometimes more depending on instructions being employed.

shikamaru317 said:

They are most likely referring to CPU when they say 4x more powerful than XB1 X. A Ryzen 2 CPU should indeed be about a 4x improvement over last-gen's Jaguars, which were underpowered even at the start of the generation. I wouldn't be expecting more than a 2-2.5x improvement over XB1 X's GPU if I were you, and early analysis of the memory modules on Scarlett's motherboard in the trailer suggest we'll be looking at double the amount of RAM and roughly double the RAM speed.

They made no specific mentions of any components, so we can assume it's overall performance rather than any specific cherry-picked components.

As for the Ram speed, Navi has made improvements to memory compression, so the real-world bandwidth available for the chip isn't a 1:1 comparison.

Mr Puggsly said:

We at least know all the gaming crucial specs are getting a significant upgrade (GPU, CPU, RAM, storage). I would be perfectly content 12TF of GPU power. As long as AAA games are (or more regularly) 1440p-4K with 60 fps, more polish, faster loading, that will be a significant upgrade. I would gladly pay $499 for that.

Probably be a day 1 purchase for me too. Call me keen... Although I think the transition from 8th to 9th gen is going to be an insanely long one sadly.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Around the Network
SvennoJ said:
EricHiggin said:

That jump is also majority GPU.

Yup, to go from 900p to 4K. 8K is just a supported resolution, as well as 120 fps. Not realistic.

And faster streaming from storage and much faster CPU is bad news for forwards compatibility. As Sony demonstrated with Spiderman, building games around much faster data loading means the games can't run on the older hardware. Which is fine, clean break for progress.

Lets say it has double the GPU power of X1X. The Scarlett could potentially hit 4K/120 fps in something like Forza 7. Maybe dynamic 8K (somewhere between 6K-8K) with 60 fps.

However, 8K and 120 fps at the same time. I imagine it would have to look like a 6th/7th gen game. Low poly assets, low overhead effects, but great textures.

I certainly think developers will put in options that let people play with 8K or 120 fps in a few titles. For titles where CPU bottleneck isn't an issue, I imagine virtually any 60 fps game could have a 120 FPS option at a lower resolution.

Forza has always been a popular series for pushing tech. The X1X already achieved 4K/60 fps in Forza 7. I imagine Forza 8 will again aim for 4K/60 fps with vastly improved visuals. But a ~1440p/120 fps option would be very interesting.

Lastly, I think there is a good chance backwards compatibility of OG Xbox, 360, and maybe even X1 could become 8K content or at least something well north of 4K.

Last edited by Mr Puggsly - on 13 June 2019

Recently Completed
River City: Rival Showdown
for 3DS (3/5) - River City: Tokyo Rumble for 3DS (4/5) - Zelda: BotW for Wii U (5/5) - Zelda: BotW for Switch (5/5) - Zelda: Link's Awakening for Switch (4/5) - Rage 2 for X1X (4/5) - Rage for 360 (3/5) - Streets of Rage 4 for X1/PC (4/5) - Gears 5 for X1X (5/5) - Mortal Kombat 11 for X1X (5/5) - Doom 64 for N64 (emulator) (3/5) - Crackdown 3 for X1S/X1X (4/5) - Infinity Blade III - for iPad 4 (3/5) - Infinity Blade II - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Infinity Blade - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Wolfenstein: The Old Blood for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Origins for X1 (3/5) - Uncharted: Lost Legacy for PS4 (4/5) - EA UFC 3 for X1 (4/5) - Doom for X1 (4/5) - Titanfall 2 for X1 (4/5) - Super Mario 3D World for Wii U (4/5) - South Park: The Stick of Truth for X1 BC (4/5) - Call of Duty: WWII for X1 (4/5) -Wolfenstein II for X1 - (4/5) - Dead or Alive: Dimensions for 3DS (4/5) - Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite for X1 (3/5) - Halo Wars 2 for X1/PC (4/5) - Halo Wars: DE for X1 (4/5) - Tekken 7 for X1 (4/5) - Injustice 2 for X1 (4/5) - Yakuza 5 for PS3 (3/5) - Battlefield 1 (Campaign) for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Syndicate for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: MW Remastered for X1 (4/5) - Donkey Kong Country Returns for 3DS (4/5) - Forza Horizon 3 for X1 (5/5)

Could've just been marketing math. CPU twice as good, GPU twice as good, baaaam, 4 times as good.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

DonFerrari said:
drkohler said:

I read your links three times mainly because I couldn't believe that there was absolutely no information in it. I watched the video twice because I couldn't believe there was absolutely no infornation in it.

"I gave the link to official information"- no you didn't, simply because there is no official information. Again, for absolutely obvious reasons, no company is going to give any official information (which translates to "specs" essentially).

From what I read the 4x over XB1X, SSD, Zen2, etc was official information gave by MS on presentation.

In the E3 video they were talking about the CPU, showed footage of the CPU and immediately afterwards said "4 times more powerful than Xbox One X".


https://youtu.be/0AVUdNY0jDQ?t=2m

I don't know how so many people (including tons of gaming journalists) got that wrong.



SvennoJ said:
For reference, the xbox one x is about 4.5x the xbox one, so a smaller 'jump' than the mid gen refresh....

Jumping Jesus, if the X1X is four(.5) times the X1, does that mean Xarlet is 8(.5)× X1?

Well...that doesnt sound like a lot



Hunting Season is done...

Random_Matt said:
Lockhart could be dumped according to DF.

Haven't heard about it, put the link please.

Pemalite said:
DonFerrari said:

Scarlett has a custom-designed Zen 2 processor from AMD, and it will feature an SSD that will reportedly help to dramatically improve load times and also function as virtual RAM.

Dear god. I can tell people are going to flog that as a selling point in their spec wars comparison.

The original Xbox had the option for developers to use some of the mechanical hard drive storage as "Virtual Ram". - The Xbox One has this capability also, it's not a new concept, it's not a selling point, PC has been doing it for 30+ years.

We know that in console war every piece part can and will be used for marketing and also for comparison between consoles even if the impact in the end is close to nill.

DonFerrari said:

So we have that Scarlet (probably Anaconda version) to be 4x more powerful than X1X, but for some reason a lot of people in VGC say it is impossible PS5 would be 2x more powerful than X1X. Seems like may are in for a surprise.

I agree. I think we can expect a significant step up over the Playstation 4 Pro and Xbox One X consoles, it's going to be significant, especially as next gen seems to be very focused on lighting, shadowing and reflections.
I would be pretty disappointed if we didn't get a significant jump over this gen, even more on the case of Pro that basically just got a pixel count jump (yes I know there are some other minute differences) so for me we are counting about a 10x jump against a base PS4 if Sony cut clean from this gen (BC but no FC) with games improvements to justify it.

trasharmdsister12 said:

Who said it would be impossible for PS5 to be 2x more "powerful" than X1X?I think there's confusion in what was being referred to. Many people don't seem to understand that TFLOPS are not the be all and end all of performance calculation. So some people might be saying 12 TFLOPS are not possible in a console GPU in 2020. I'm not saying they're right or wrong, but that might be what they're trying to communicate but not understanding that a 12 TFLOPS GPU can be more than 2x more powerful than the X1X's GPU by being more efficient in some ways. It could event be less than 2x more powerful if something has gone horribly wrong with the design. lol

Even with Scarlet, saying it's 4x more "powerful" than X1X doesn't say much. 4x more powerful in what way? It's not suddenly going to be a 24 TFLOP GPU. It could be 4x more powerful at certain workloads. They could be talking about the CPU which wouldn't be hard to achieve going from 8 core Jaguar to 8 core Zen 2.

This is why I have been saying that flops is irrelevant on these forums for years. Because it simply is.
Now because we aren't seeing 12-24 Teraflop consoles next gen, people are thinking it's not a big leap in performance... When it actually is a big leap.

Rendering a games world is so much more than just the single precision floating point math that is used.

Random_Matt said:
CPU jump is around 4X, there you are.

Depends on clocks of course, if Microsoft dials the clock-rates on the 8-core Ryzen home (I.E. 3.6Ghz+) - Then I would expect more than just a 4x increase in CPU performance over Jaguar, it's Jaguar, it was a terrible low-end CPU even on release.

But if Microsoft is going conservative with CPU clocks in order to spend more TDP on the GPU part of the chip, then a 4x increase is pretty reasonable I guess, but I would hope for more.
Considering the garbage tier Jaguar is (enough for this gen when respecting its limits) 4x is very mild upgrade.

haxxiy said:

It's 100% certain the GPU won't come nowhere close to 4 times and that was PR speak dude. Based on imprecision and half-truths. Come on. You're coming across as naive if anything.

Depends on the task... Remember this isn't the same Navi GPU that the PC is getting, it's a step up with dedicated Ray Tracing hardware, so Microsoft is likely including the capabilities of the Ray Tracing hardware in it's "performance calculations" so to speak.

jason1637 said:
I think both consoles are going to be very similar spec wise.

Probably a fair assessment. Although Sony has been pretty "mum" on dedicated hardware Ray Tracing, where-as Microsoft has come out and mentioned it, so if Scarlett has hardware Ray Tracing and the Playstation 5 doesn't, that could be a big selling point for the Xbox... And you can bet Microsoft will milk that.

DonFerrari said:

Well I doubt it because I'm pretty sure the CPU for next gen will be much more than 4x stronger than a potato.

My own guesstimate pegged it at around 8-10x, sometimes more depending on instructions being employed.
a more reasonable jump on a gen. Because the CPU for the mid-gen refresh didn't improve significantly. So when we are expecting other aspects to be 8-10x better the CPU would probably accompany.

shikamaru317 said:

They are most likely referring to CPU when they say 4x more powerful than XB1 X. A Ryzen 2 CPU should indeed be about a 4x improvement over last-gen's Jaguars, which were underpowered even at the start of the generation. I wouldn't be expecting more than a 2-2.5x improvement over XB1 X's GPU if I were you, and early analysis of the memory modules on Scarlett's motherboard in the trailer suggest we'll be looking at double the amount of RAM and roughly double the RAM speed.

They made no specific mentions of any components, so we can assume it's overall performance rather than any specific cherry-picked components.

As for the Ram speed, Navi has made improvements to memory compression, so the real-world bandwidth available for the chip isn't a 1:1 comparison.

Mr Puggsly said:

We at least know all the gaming crucial specs are getting a significant upgrade (GPU, CPU, RAM, storage). I would be perfectly content 12TF of GPU power. As long as AAA games are (or more regularly) 1440p-4K with 60 fps, more polish, faster loading, that will be a significant upgrade. I would gladly pay $499 for that.

Probably be a day 1 purchase for me too. Call me keen... Although I think the transition from 8th to 9th gen is going to be an insanely long one sadly.

Replies in bold. The next 12 months will have endless discussion on the expected HW and when they get announced what that will mean in performance on games.

vivster said:
Could've just been marketing math. CPU twice as good, GPU twice as good, baaaam, 4 times as good.

Not impossible, we have seem marketing doing this type of creative math in the past.

Barozi said:
DonFerrari said:

From what I read the 4x over XB1X, SSD, Zen2, etc was official information gave by MS on presentation.

In the E3 video they were talking about the CPU, showed footage of the CPU and immediately afterwards said "4 times more powerful than Xbox One X".


https://youtu.be/0AVUdNY0jDQ?t=2m

I don't know how so many people (including tons of gaming journalists) got that wrong.

Got it. Well then that is trully PR BS. Because the potato CPU of gen 8 being 4x stronger next gen will be an even weaker potato.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."