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Democratic Support of UBI and Abortion at the same time is Hypocrisy

Yes 8 26.67%
 
No 22 73.33%
 
Total:30

Pemalite said:

How can you assert that when you don't know the details of every incident? Unless we know the situation, we shouldn't be jumping to conclusions.

They aren't being let off any hook, they need to live with the fact they aborted a child for the rest of their life.

Sounds like a contract would take care of that problem.

In terms of killing something they are. Everyone in their own way lives and deals with plenty of mental dilemma's and the negative consequences, and that's been the norm since humans have existed.

Pemalite said:

I am a road crash technician, so this is right up my alley.
What you describe isn't always the case.

Here we have mandatory insurance for bodily injury, not vehicles, you need to buy your own 3rd party insurance. - In the event of an accident, if you are at fault, then the other participant can claim against your insurance, if you don't have any, then they claim against their own insurance, if they don't have it either, then tough luck.

And you won't loose your license if you have to many accidents either. - Remember, Mad Max was made here. ;)

Gotta love it when someone breaks out the saucepan... loosen the belt because supper will be caught and cooked before the sands end time.

Pemalite said:

Divorce process exists for a reason. People feelings in the matter are ultimately irrelevant, it doesn't change the process or outcome.

People's feelings when it comes to marriage, divorce or even life and death, are irrelevant?

Pemalite said:

True, but there is a reason why there is an age cut-off point where you are allowed to make decisions that are potentially life-altering, because it's assumed that the individual has enough life experience to make an informed choice.

But if you are all about children making adult choices... Why don't you have children running your country?

I don't disagree that the older you get the wiser you typically become in general. I'm arguing that if your decision making process involves others, it would be wise to seriously take into account the decision making process of people older and likely wiser than yourself, especially in terms of life and death. Corporations typically have multiple board members, and some many members, to make decisions that impact their employee's job, as well as the public and however they interact with them. To argue a life should come down to just one persons decision without more defined requirements doesn't seem like an 'adult' decision to begin with. It's a reason why a jury exists in certain types of court cases.

We do, JT. Some say or imply America's DJT is as well...

Pemalite said:

The Earth is not a biological construct. Faith is believe without evidence, something I cannot adhere to.

The Earth doesn't give a shit if all life lives or dies, it will continue to exist either way.

No? Where did we come from? Scientifically and/or Religiously. Even then, God used clay to mold us so.

Some people don't give a sh*t about anything either, but tossing partially made products in the garbage will get you fired unless you have a damn good reason why you did so. If you run your own solo business like that, it will leave you bankrupt and living on the street, or wilderness, questioning and fighting for your life.

Pemalite said:

The line between manslaughter and murder are often blurred, no need to play into semantics.

The law is the law. - If there is contention on a point in the law, there is a specific process to be followed and to challenge, no point in playing into your hypothetical scenario which will ultimately change nothing.

Well understanding the scenario is important when analyzing it and drawing conclusions.

If you deem a certain law, or point within a law to be unjust, is there ever a point in time where that law becomes just, even after multiple failed attempts to challenge it? The point of the law being to redress wrongs, also taking into account nothing or no one is perfect of course.

Pemalite said:

It doesn't need full autonomous control, making this argument entirely redundant.

Neither does the husband.

Pemalite said:

That is between the mother and father to decide and the legal process to figure out.

Either way, what another couple does isn't my business.

You're free to care less about whether or not the tree makes a sound.

Pemalite said:

Many countries have or had laws that restricted procreation, China for example.

And no, that law cannot be justified, because you cannot predict a future event, you can only base an action on the information you have at the time and not some far-fetched hypothetical future scenario.

While I'm not big on restrictions, some are certainly necessary in a proper functioning society, so partially restricting procreation makes more sense than stopping it's fulfillment once started. They should have responsibly tackled the problem much sooner and never had to deal with implementing the law in the first place.

The reason being because life is extremely important? The most important some would say?

Pemalite said:

Paramedics are trained differently to other first response agencies.
And as an Aged Carer... I am all for Euthanasia. I have seen things that would put hair on a Paramedics chest.

But if I am on a job, doesn't matter how bloody, how gruesome, I will still work my ass off to keep that individual alive.

There was a job where a woman fell of a very tall cliff, broke her collar, hip, arm... And she set off an EPIRB. - I was the first person down the cliff and for 9 hours I tried to keep her alive, keep her comfortable... And despite the fact she was in excruciating pain, I did my job. - Made her as comfortable as possible by holding her, regardless if she was bleeding out on me.

Sadly because I am in one of the most remote places on Earth, it took that long for a chopper to get there and take her away. She didn't survive, I didn't loose any sleep over it... But if Euthanasia was legal and she asked for it, you bet I would have considered it knowing that the chopper was so far away and she had no chance of survival.

It would have been humane.

The worst thing she ever described to me, which I can't forget because it had to do with my career as well, was attending to an electrical shock and burn victim at a factory substation. Had a few fingers and a toe blown off and was burned up about as bad as it get's. She said you could clearly see the path that was taken through the body, from left finger tips diagonally to right toes. He died as they were pulling into emerg. Just thinking about it makes my skin crawl. My job was never the same after hearing that.

Again I look to responsibility. I became much more safety conscious than I already was, but would not expect the system to allow me to end my own life, and if it came down to being unconscious and having someone else choose for me, it won't be just one person who decides, and it certainly includes people I find logical and not just people who care about me.

Pemalite said:

If the USA attacked Australia, China would be the counter. Simple as that.

Maybe wait at least 20 years before giving them a reason to do so then, if ever.

Pemalite said:

The USA just doesn't seem as "impressive" as it used to be, it's influence is on the decline.
I think partly that is because of trump, he more like comedic relief in the political sphere on the world stage.

The world is catching up because of the peace America has helped to keep worldwide (minus their mistakes here and there). This is where America gives Canada a pat on the back when no one is looking. It also has led to worldwide communication done in an easy and rapid fashion, solving problems before they get out of hand.

Pemalite said:

Only delaying the inevitable. The world will continue to do trade with China, especially as China is trading in Oil now.

The same could be said about life, or human life more specifically. China isn't guaranteed or immune either.

Pemalite said:

China's manufacturing is it's biggest advantage... They can mass produce everything.

And because of it's massive population will always have low-paid wages to take advantage of.

Not near enough of an advantage if you can't also outperform the competition when it comes to quality and technological advances. It's a solid base though.

When countries continue to prosper over time, the birth rate eventually declines and they tend to automate. How many people way back in America thought there would always be plenty of slaves? Good thing that got solved and it's being implemented worldwide, slowly but surely.



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SpokenTruth said:
EricHiggin said:

1. So I present you with a Canadian version of something that is not accepted as being defined worldwide, and your response is USA! USA! USA! ?

2. Well who brought up the point that led to that response?

SpokenTruth said: 

2). "I'm pretty sure an astronaut has a choice to be an astronaut. I don't think a fetus has a choice in the environment (financial, educational, emotional, medical, etc...support) they are born into."

If it was so unrelated, why did they use that as a response? Same reason they thought Hitler somehow ties into this? Hitler is becoming like Franks Red Hot for politics.

1). It's not an acceptable definition because that was a pilot program.  I just told you that.  It was a flat rate and not tied to Cost of Living.  That's not even going to be a valid reference point for the entirety of Canada much less globally. Then I gave you an example of how that wouldn't function as a livable income. You of all people should know I'm not one to shout USA!. I critique the US probably harder than just about any member here.

2). Wow.  You really don't get it? I'm just going to have to start ignoring your analogies and metaphors.

1. It wouldn't work in America you said. I told you it would work here. Are you saying if it would work then it's not UBI? Then what's the point of UBI?

I'm all ears for hearing about what UBI is exactly. A gravity like description would suffice since it's universal.

2. Who's getting it seems to be up for debate. You're free to think up is down. I mean, when it comes to the big picture of space, well.



Democrats are all about giving out more government hand outs and popular social reforms. This however comes at a cost, tax payers pay higher taxes and they must foot the bill. Republicans say hell no, let's lower taxes and make it harder to get abortions, reduce public spending and oppose socialist policies like Obamacare and Universal Basic Income. Republicans believe reducing taxes will help everyone achieve economic freedom and become rugged individuals, self reliant and independent like a hero portrayed by actors: Clint Eastwood, John Wayne or Gary Cooper.



forest-spirit said:
Shinobi-san said:
I can never understand the far left and right extremist views of the US.

Why not compromise like the rest of the world, allow for abortion under certain extreme circumstances, and only within a certain period.

Never mind philosophical or political ideologies, just seems like the common sense thing to do given everything this issue involves.

"like rest of the world" is a very broad statement as abortion laws differ a lot between different parts of the world:

https://www.pewresearch.org/interactives/global-abortion/

http://www.worldabortionlaws.com/map/

The far majority of western nations have relatively liberal abortion laws and while the period during which you can legally have an abortion differs between the countries most do not require any special circumstances as far as I've understood.

I guess what im trying to say is that the majority of the rest of the world (looking at your first article), allows for abortion under special circumstance (the number of countries that are grey for "on request" are quite low, and yes these are mostly Western/European countries).

But even those highly liberal countries do require special circumstances.

South Africa is one of those countries marked as on request, but even in South Africa there are limitations in terms of time, which these Article do not cover.

Sweden is another i randomly chose from the list, that is also marked as "On request" but even in Sweden it is only allowed up until 18 weeks, after which a special reason is required (special reasons usually refers to sickness, rape, incest, danger to the mother).

I don't see any country treating abortion lightly, referring to a fetus as a parasite (which is rediculous) or completely disallowing abortion even under the majority of special circumstances. Where it seems like the USA is pushing in those two extreme opposites. However it might be a case that only the extremist views of the USA is the ones we hear about...

(we being the international community :) )



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Abortion is Murder. Abortion is the murder of an innocent unborn child. Only if the child has a genetic defect like Down Syndrome or some other defect only then Abortion should be considered, To terminate a healthy unborn child is madness. Being an ultra conservative and devout Catholic, me and my fellow Pro-lifers believe that Abortion is murder.



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Dark_Lord_2008 said:
Abortion is Murder. Abortion is the murder of an innocent unborn child. Only if the child has a genetic defect like Down Syndrome or some other defect only then Abortion should be considered, To terminate a healthy unborn child is madness. Being an ultra conservative and devout Catholic, me and my fellow Pro-lifers believe that Abortion is murder.

So for people who aren't devout Catholics abortion is OK.



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Abortion is never ok it is murder. There are plenty of religious people that end up as politicians and they are social conservative and religion plays a huge role in deciding political issues as seen in may conservative nations around the world. The Catholic Church and most religious organisations are against Abortion.



Dark_Lord_2008 said:
Abortion is never ok it is murder. There are plenty of religious people that end up as politicians and they are social conservative and religion plays a huge role in deciding political issues as seen in may conservative nations around the world. The Catholic Church and most religious organisations are against Abortion.

You are attacking religious freedom, if you force a decision based on your faith on people following a different faith. That is highly unamerican. You are an enemy of american values, that are grounded in religious freedom. It is OK for you to base your decisions on your faith, but never apply this to followers of different faiths.



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Abortion is a sin. Having more children is good because there are going to be winners and losers in life. Animals have more babies for a reason, not all of them are going to be successful in life or strong enough to survive. The same applies to humans, only the strongest survive. The strongest men rise to the top and they smash the male competitors into the ground so they can pass on their gene code. Abortion is not right and why would a strong man sit idly by allow that to happen? God does not want unborn children to be killed before they had a chance, God enjoys watching the strong man fighting his way to the top in an endless cycle that has gone on since the dawn of time.

Last edited by Dark_Lord_2008 - on 25 May 2019

Dark_Lord_2008 said:
Abortion is a sin. Having more children is good because there are going to be winners and losers in life. Animals have more babies for a reason, not all of then are going to be successful in life or strong enough to survive. The same applies to humans, only the strongest survive. The strongest men rise to the top and they smash the male competitors into the ground so they can pass on their gene code. Abortion is not right and why would a strong man sit idly by allow that to happen? God does not want unborn children to be killed before they had a chance, God enjoys watching the strong man fighting his way to the top in an endless cycle that has gone on since the dawn of time.

If you say it is a sin, you mean it is a sin for you. As I said religious freedom means other religions can have differing opinions. To deny that is contradictory to american values.

But you should stick to faith-based arguments, because your interpretation of science is even worse. What you argue is called by biologists r-strategy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R/K_selection_theory

R-strategy basically means to produce as much offspring as possible and a few survive. But in evolution also a different strategy showed itself as very successful: K-strategy. This is the other way, produce few offspring but devote them a lot of resources so they have better chances of survival. Humans are K-strategists like a lot of bigger and more complicated animals (the costs and the losses of the r-strategy are increasing with the complexity of organisms). So the r-strategy you recommend is more suited to simpler organisms without a brain.

At the end you try to glue science and religion together. That is not very pretty. And again you attack american values by completely forcing only one religious interpretation on anyone. Many people have differing images of God. The american way is to accept and tolerate these differing views.



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