the-pi-guy said:
ConservagameR said:
You're not happy with the vagueness of leaving? Since when did leaving mean killing whoever else you were with? Is that how divorce typically works?
If you took issue with the apparent vagueness of leaving, how do you think I took getting a response that only implies I think a lot of people should die?
Assuming civil war automatically, makes no sense basing it solely on the past. If someone said a world war would start tomorrow, would you assume they meant it would be fought with muskets since that's how it was done in the past, or is it the year 2022?
As for why, for starters, unification goal, deplorable semi-fascists rhetoric, covid mismanagement, killed fuel sources, record gas prices, Afghanistan, Ukraine, Russia(gate)bait, inflation, disregard for border state immigration, attention to northern urban immigration, etc. The list goes on.
Staying together for the kids is one thing if done in a useful enough manner, but staying together because one person doesn't seem to be ok with letting go is another much bigger problem. That tends to mean an abusive relationship, which nobody should be subject to, who doesn't want to. If the person wanting to leave is a fascist, supremacist, racist, etc, who shouldn't ever be given a platform, why the cling and not good riddance?
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Because the peaceful ways to secede require most of the country to approve, which isn't going to happen.
Most of your list makes no sense. Gas prices aren't set by the government. Inflation is currently a global issue right now.
A fundamental issue with your rhetoric is that the "red" states aren't as red as you seem to be imagining. The biggest states, Florida and Texas are pretty close to 50/50 Republican Democrat. Even a vote would require basically every single Republican to want to leave, which is incredibly unlikely.
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Bandorr said:
ConservagameR said:
You're not happy with the vagueness of leaving? Since when did leaving mean killing whoever else you were with? Is that how divorce typically works?
If you took issue with the apparent vagueness of leaving, how do you think I took getting a response that only implies I think a lot of people should die?
Assuming civil war automatically, makes no sense basing it solely on the past. If someone said a world war would start tomorrow, would you assume they meant it would be fought with muskets since that's how it was done in the past, or is it the year 2022?
As for why, for starters, unification goal, deplorable semi-fascists rhetoric, covid mismanagement, killed fuel sources, record gas prices, Afghanistan, Ukraine, Russia(gate)bait, inflation, disregard for border state immigration, attention to northern urban immigration, etc. The list goes on.
Staying together for the kids is one thing if done in a useful enough manner, but staying together because one person doesn't seem to be ok with letting go is another much bigger problem. That tends to mean an abusive relationship, which nobody should be subject to, who doesn't want to. If the person wanting to leave is a fascist, supremacist, racist, etc, who shouldn't ever be given a platform, why the cling and not good riddance?
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Try again. You didn't answer the question. I'm not one for people avoiding or trying to find an end around my questions. So I'd like to give you another chance.
The states don't have the right to leave. So attempting to secede would lead to civil war. So let's drop the crap about "why are you assuming that". Because it would happen.
So I'm asking what you're advocating for. It sounds like the fairy tail of "the states seceding.. but ignoring a civil war". Which sounds like an interesting discussion. So let me ask you this - if the states were allowed to secede - what would happen?
Everything federal? Gone. The states like Kentucky that take in more federal money than give out - all that money is gone. The medicaid, medicare, social security, and insurance that certain people seem to hate... yet still depend on - gone.
Border patrol? Congrats you are now a foreign country surrounded on all sides. Infrastructure like highways? Yep that belongs to the country you just abandoned.
And what states do you think would follow this? Is Texas (one of the few red states that can hold its own) is going to want to subsidize the small states? Do you think the billionaires will want to take their money out of their banks and stock markets to.. no where?
All the massive relief aid they get from hurricane and tornadoes? Gone. The police that are so loved - gone. Jobs? gone - because you are now part of a foreign country.
So convince me there is a strategy here, and not just you threatening people with the concept of civil war only to then pretend you're not called out on it.
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Machiavellian said:
I believe that ConservagameR you probably should read up on what it takes for any state to secede from the US. Unless a state just totally ignores the federal government and the constitution, there is no means to do so which would mean they have to force their way out. So yes you are pretty much talking about civil war in order for something like that to happen because it would not be some peaceful transition where the US would just up and say, "GO Ahead".
Second of all your points about all the things you feel is wrong with the current government really does not mean anything. America has been through this for countless decades where one side believe the other is doing a bad job. If that was the case, red or blue states would have picked up their marbles a long time ago. If the GOP cannot win the house and Senate then they have themselves to blame. If the Dems cannot keep the house and Senate, they have themselves to blame.
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Bandorr said:
sundin13 said:
Also worth noting that every state has some Federal land in it (including the majority of the land west of Texas), so secession either means a real awkward relationship with this Federal land, or the state attempting to steal this land.
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This would be part of the "fantasy". That for some reason these people would be given free land. Like we went to war and killed massive amount of people to take this land.. but sure you can have it free of charge.
And what happens to loans and taxes etc. Student? Real estate? House? Car? You are owing money to the bank of a foreign country.
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Texas can leave if it decides to. It was part of the deal when they joined, and was very forward thinking of them. Some of the other States wanted that out but didn't have the leverage that Texas had. For those asking about how to divvy everything up, how would that work out for Texas, since it would have to work out? If it can be worked out with Texas, why not others, and most efficiently, why not at the same time? They're full of the most terrible people aren't they?
Not set but they do intersect. It's not a coincidence why fuel was much lower under the prior administration. Biden's admin also said there was nothing they could do about gas prices, then days later made moves to help lower them and bragged about it, which they keep bragging about. Don't State governments set minimum gas prices? I remember reading a recent story where this was a competitive issue in a few states where some gas stations were charging too little.
I didn't mention Texas or Florida prior, since Texas isn't as red as it used to be, though still leans much more right, and Florida has been purple for a while now, so why did you assume that? It couldn't have been because Texas can leave, because you heavily implied nobody can.
Texas has the right to leave.
Are you saying the Constitution is set in stone and isn't an outdated document that can and should be updated? The conservatives believe that much more so. There's other political factions who want to make a lot of changes or additions since it's built on things like racism, etc.
They would sit down and work things out. Easier said than done, but in divorce the wife is probably going to take half right? So what's wrong with that? If she takes the house in the deal, you're out, find a new place, or is that not acceptable? Isn't what yours mine, and mine yours? It'll take some time like it always does, but there's no point in trying to stop the leaver from leaving at that point is there? What might need to be done to fix things, and are they willing to do that?
Whatever States that left would likely have to join and make their own country, so you would end up with at least two countries when all was said and done. Texas would have to go along with it, because others almost certainly won't leave without Texas, and if Texas went on it's own and left them stuck where they are, they'd be quite upset with Texas. It would be smarter for Texas to bring them along. Business problems for some of those other States could be much more easily solved that way as well so the discrepancy between them and Texas wouldn't be as vast going forward.
The US right now is surrounded on all sides. California would still need to worry about the southern border, and possibly Arizona depending on what they decided. I'm willing to bet Texas southern border guards are probably mostly from the general area. It's also not like the new nation wouldn't be able to hire more guards for the northern regions, but the hope would be that it's much more like the Canadian border. Why wouldn't it be?
One of the major NY stock exchanges moved to Texas already I believe, and they're working to bring more to Texas. Many businesses have or are working towards moving to Texas. Tesla moved there instead of California for good reason. They're clearly setting things up so they can leave if they want, and if they stay, they'll be plenty diverse shortly.
You really think when sections of countries break off they don't think ahead and just fall apart? How does Ukraine even exist then?
Convince you there's a strategy? I simply said that's what they should do in that situation. You're acting like it's some evil century long plan being sprung any day now. Maybe someone here needs to walk us all through climate change recovery step by step, otherwise we all agree it's just a devious threatening concept?
The US and many nations have been through this before, yes. Since when is the thought process by progressive individuals to simply hold the line without budging? Isn't that the conservative thought process? Isn't that going backwards?
Btw, how did this get from Trump going to jail, to this? What happened to that?