KLAMarine said:
Soundwave said:

A store can be rebuilt. You can't bring people back from the dead last time I checked. 

Indeed, you cannot bring back the dead, no matter how hard you riot. Riots can only claim more lives.

Riots can -only- claim more lives? You don't think they can achieve anything else? How about ... if they promote changes to a system for the purpose of reducing loss of life?



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Casually designating an ideology a "terrorist organization" to justify mass murder of political dissidents.

Neat.



KLAMarine said:

This is why I'm more scared of rioters than of police.

The operative word here is "supposed".  Police are "supposed" to be held accountable. But so many times they aren't.  

That's why these riots and protests are happening.  Because when the police wrong black people, it is continually shown that black people don't matter.  

KLAMarine said:

Indeed, you cannot bring back the dead, no matter how hard you riot. Riots can only claim more lives.

If they bring about policy changes that prevent more deaths.  That's a win.



the-pi-guy said:
KLAMarine said:

This is why I'm more scared of rioters than of police.

The operative word here is "supposed".  Police are "supposed" to be held accountable. But so many times they aren't.  

That's why these riots and protests are happening.  Because when the police wrong black people, it is continually shown that black people don't matter.  

KLAMarine said:

Indeed, you cannot bring back the dead, no matter how hard you riot. Riots can only claim more lives.

If they bring about policy changes that prevent more deaths.  That's a win.

Some people only want to push the narrative that supports their short-term goals of ignoring injustice in any way they can. Some people just want to cover their ears and close their eyes and make childish baby noises until it's all over because systemic racism doesn't affect them. 

The term 'check your privilege' exists for these people. I've learned that no amount of compassion or reason or 'bigger picture' talk gets through to them, becuase the bigger picture was never actually their goal. They say it's about the greater good, but it isn't, just like how it is for those who deny climate change or are anti-vaxx or claim that 'all lives matter'. IT's not about the bigger picture, it's about whatever path allows them to avoid the most strife; it's about whatever they can do to avoid taking responsibility for their actions; it's all about the path of least resistance in quest for the most short-term gains. 

I don't like violence - I think I've said that enough to make it clear - but riots and violent uprisings are sometimes the only way to make positive, long-term change. I wish it wasn't (I would like to think that we as a species are above that, but clearly not), but it is. Slavery didn't end over a lengthy conversation at dinner. Segregation didn't end over a friendly game of squash. Nazis didn't see the error of their ways due to some scathing criticism through the media. sure, Ghandi did some good by peacefully obstructing the path, but he's the exception as opposed to the rule. In reality, you have to fight to make change. If someone's coming at you with a knife, you take action, you don't just plead with them. If your house is on fire, you don't peacefully leave and find a new home, you fight that fire and you put it out. 

If an issue needs attention, it needs attention. Simple wellwishing won't do shit. I wish it did. We all wish it did. I hoped the world wouldn't come to any of this, but it has. Systemic racism in the US is a very deep-cutting issue (one that got worse ever since Trump got elected, since his blatant racism and xenophobia emboldened those who used to know enough to keep their shitty opinions to themselves), and it has been for a long time and will continue to be unless progress is made. 

They tried kneeling at football games. but that didn't work. 

They tried all manner of peaceful protests, but it's still happening. 

they tried the path of peace and unity, but it didn't work. When all else fails and violence is all you have left, it's the only language that makes the oppressors listen. At this point, it's less a matter of 'please don't disproportionately murder and target black men' and more a 'okay, you keep disproportionately targeting black men, I guess we gotta start burning down buildings to make you realize we're serious about this.'

Nobody wants violence, but 70 fucking years of peaceful protests and black men are STILL treated like garbage and unfairly targetted? Yeah, maybe some buildings need to burn. I'd rather burn down a Target than have more black men killed by callous, racist officers in a heartbeat. 



In order to give Trump a nice little photo-op, Federal Police gassed peaceful protesters and attacked another person in the media. This was live on Australian television:

This is getting to the point where the local government is having to say "this wasn't us":

The Federal Government is seizing power. They are overstepping local authorities and escalating conflicts and I see no implication that their is any sort of accountability here. This is authoritarianism.



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Machiavellian said:

Its not that people paint all police as racist, hateful or anything along those lines.  The problem is that there is a system within the police that make them defend other police, even when they do something that tarnish the police force.  People have talked about this many times when other police officers see another police doing wrong, being quiet, saying nothing or lying for them make them complicit.  This is the reason why all police get painted with the same brush because the so called good cops say nothing, the inbetween will vouch for the bad or lie.  I had this conversation with another friend of mine who is from the military who have the same mentality.  I stated to them cops cannot have a creed that protest individuals because it allows them all to be painted for one bad apple.  Instead they need a creed that protect the police force.  Letting all members know what will not be tolerated and tarnish the police force and thus their jobs.  Until that type of thinking happens we will continue to see this cycle of bad police tarnishing everyone within a department because no one is willing to stand up and say enough.

I can't actually speak of the intrinsic issues within the Police force of the United States, only my experience with the Police force of Australia as I have worked with them at most rescues to various degrees and cannot rate them highly enough.

But like any "group" of people, you are going to have exceptions to the rule. I.E. You will have a wanker.

Typically in the fire agencies we are trained to put ourselves first, then our crews and then the public, I just assumed it is the same for all agencies across the world as it's part of your typical dynamic risk assessment model.

tsogud said:

Then you're being hypocritical because being queer you should realize that Pride started, not as a parade, but as a riot. A black trans woman threw the first brick at Stonewall. In your context that shouldn't have happened and she should've been punished because she broke the law. At least make it make sense.

Not here it didn't.

Nor is it hypocritical. Again... I do not EVER condone acts of violence, there is never an appropriate excuse to be violent.

The trans women should not have thrown the brick.

tsogud said:

If you don't give a shit about the US then why are you spewing your useless bs against protests against racism. Why are you telling black Americans how to behave if you don't give a shit?

Because violence is abhorrent, wrong and disgusting? Again, you are framing this in a way where I am anti-African American and Pro-Police, that couldn't be further from the truth.
I am against the violence from both sides, I have taken the empathic high ground on this.

And I can provide my opinions wherever I see fit within the rules of the forum, don't like it? Then with all due respect, feel free not to read it, but the American constitution has not and will not have any relevance to me.

tsogud said:

You were falsely equating a profession with race. My issue is not against your stance that we shouldn't paint all people with the same brush, I agree with that. My issue is you equating a profession with race. They are not the same demographic classification. Race is a protected status and something you can't change, a profession isn't protected and is something you can change. You aren't born a police officer. You're original statement and subsequent defences on that stance are foolish.

No. I identify the differences, but I am also pointing out the commonality.
They are both descriptors for groups of people.

Yes race is different than a profession, again, never disagreed with that, making your tangent irrelevant.

tsogud said:

While black people are being brutalized by police and protesting for their right to live as they have a duty to as stated in our constitution, you choose to be silent and neutral in their fight. As such you are complicit as well as the police officers who standby and do nothing. Your silence results in violence.

No. No. And No.

I am not being silent (My comments on this thread is anything but silence!) and neutral in their fight, that is your words, not mine.

I am condemning their illegal actions, whilst supporting their rights to take proper, legal, civil courses of action.

And I am condemning the police officers illegal actions, whilst supporting their rights to take proper, legal, civil courses of action.

Both sides are as bad as each other right now with the escalating violence.

Being African American or a Police officer does not give you a free pass to needlessly destroy life, property and the environment, that's not legal, that's not what we expect from a civil, highly advanced society, anyone who defends those kinds of actions are lacking any real kinds of empathy... And that doesn't sit well with me.




--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

The national guard has arrived in my city and we're currently under a strict curfew. During a protest in my city the other day a kid was shot in the face with rubber bullets by police and was injured really badly. Cries for justice shouldn't be met with discriminate violence.



 

Violence by the oppressed is not the same as violence by the oppressor.

Period.

There is no moral equivalence between "both sides" when they stand on such different ground.



Let's go:

1). If you are not deeply familiar with US race relations, it's racial history, etc...don't approach this issue with advice or condemnation of the protestors. Ask, talk and discuss but do not speak from a position that gives the impression you know our situation, history and experiences better than we do. If you have advice, I assure you, we've fucking tried it over and over and over and over.

2). If you quote Dr. King, you better know what you're talking about. Because most of who you do quote him, don't know jack beyond the quote. He was non-violent and still got beat, arrested, water cannon, dog bitten, and eventually assassinated. And while his actions and speeches were non-violent, he understood that violent protests can be warranted and are expected. You should know this. "A riot is the language of the unheard." -Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

3). King was shot and the Civil Rights movement ended 52 years ago. So why the fuck is this still a problem today? "A riot is the language of the unheard." Must mean after 52 years they are still unheard.

4). Being a member of an oppressive group telling the oppressed how they should protest...you're basically spitting in their face AND oppressing them further.

White: "Protest peacefully and we'll help fix it."
Black: "Let's march down the streets like Dr. King."
White: "No, not like that."
Black: "OK, I'm going to take a knee at a sporting event."
White: "No, not like that."
Black: "OK, I'm going to make a speech at an awards show to spread awareness."
White: "No, not like that."
Black: "Ok, I'm going to wear a shirt that says, "I Can't Breathe."
White: "No, not like that."
Black: "OK, I'm going to wear a shirt that say, "Hands Up, Don't Shoot."
White: "No, not like that."
Black: "Ok, I'm going to do a song and dance tribute at the Super Bowl half time show."
White: "No, not like that."
Black: "Ok, I'm going to give a speech at the end of a theatrical performance."
White: "No, not like that."
Black: "OK, I'm going to create a campaign that says our lives are important."
White: "No, not like that."

Black: "Then how the hell do you want us to protest?"
White: "Peacefully....you know, so peacefully I don't have to even know or hear about it."

Black: *This is why we riot*
White: "Why can't you protest peacefully?"

5). Question. Who keeps leaving pallets of bricks in a half dozens cities for protestors to throw? Certainly isn't the protestors themselves. Anti-Fa? Nope, they don't have central coordination and leadership to purchase nearly $100k worth of bricks and distribute them to cities across the US in 1 night.

6). Some of you are more pissed off that Target got looted than someone died. This is a symptom of American consumerism. We've come to value property and goods more than human life. And it's made worse given that property and goods are typically insured. You can't make an insurance claim to replace a human life.

7). "All Lives Matter". Prove it then. Prove that ALL lives matter by doing something to help those lives who are underprivileged, oppressed, targeted, etc.... If you're fine with the status quo, then no, you don't believe all lives matter, just some.

8). Police training. Many states require as little as 360 hours of training to become an officer with a badge and a gun. This stands in contrast for ALL states requiring a 4 year Bachelor's degree to be a teacher. Or over 1,500 hours of training to be a barber for some states, like Connecticut, plus pass a licensing and certification exam.

9). Protests and riots are a symptom of systemic problems. Being mad at protestors and rioters is like being mad at your swollen eye for making it hard to see but not the bully that sucker punched you in the eye.

Last edited by SpokenTruth - on 01 June 2020

Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

Soundwave said:
KLAMarine said:

Indeed, you cannot bring back the dead, no matter how hard you riot. Riots can only claim more lives.

No, but you can force justice. 

That cop is arrested only because the powers that be are scared of these riots, they tried to hold off arresting him for several days before finally being forced into doing the right thing. 

"Peaceful protest" would not have accomplished that. 

The only reason that cop, who murdered a man on camera, is not going to be back working the streets 6 months from now is because of violent unrest. It's the only language the powers that be understand. 

Colin Kaepernick tried to bring attention and change to this issue "peacefully" and what did he get? Zero change, a bunch of whining from white critics that he "can't do that", and black listed from his profession. 

"It's the only language the powers that be understand."

>They also understand being voted out of office.

SpokenTruth said:
KLAMarine said:

This is why I'm more scared of rioters than of police.

Then you're priorities and value are misplaced.

Protestors: Who/what are they targeting?
Police: Who/what are they targeting?

Oh wait.....I get it now.  Nevermind.

I've been wronged more by members of the general public than by police.

zorg1000 said:
KLAMarine said:
A fashion shop near my home has been hit. I ask myself "what did these people do to anyone to deserve this?"

Nothing. They did nothing to anyone to deserve that...

What did the merchants bringing tea to the colonies do to deserve that?

Nothing.

TK-Karma said:
KLAMarine said:

Indeed, you cannot bring back the dead, no matter how hard you riot. Riots can only claim more lives.

Riots can -only- claim more lives? You don't think they can achieve anything else? How about ... if they promote changes to a system for the purpose of reducing loss of life?

So what changes do you propose?

the-pi-guy said:
KLAMarine said:

This is why I'm more scared of rioters than of police.

The operative word here is "supposed".  Police are "supposed" to be held accountable. But so many times they aren't.  

That's why these riots and protests are happening.  Because when the police wrong black people, it is continually shown that black people don't matter.  

KLAMarine said:

Indeed, you cannot bring back the dead, no matter how hard you riot. Riots can only claim more lives.

If they bring about policy changes that prevent more deaths.  That's a win.

"Police are "supposed" to be held accountable. But so many times they aren't."

>Here's a sobering fact of life: a great number of crimes go unsolved.

I fear part of the reason for that is in court cases, the defendant is given benefit of the doubt and it's up to the prosecution to prove their case. Not always an easy task and when a police officer is involved in a case of police brutality, they too stand to benefit from doubt. The prosecution has to prove their case and sometimes, the evidence isn't there in sufficient quantity or quality to guarantee a guilty verdict. At other times, I imagine some prosecutors are unwilling to try a case because of not enough evidence to go on and because you only get one shot at a guilty verdict, double jeopardy ensuring you cannot retry someone for the same crime...

I should make it clear that I'm not a lawyer but that's what I'm seeing based on what little I know...

Runa216 said:
the-pi-guy said:

The operative word here is "supposed".  Police are "supposed" to be held accountable. But so many times they aren't.  

That's why these riots and protests are happening.  Because when the police wrong black people, it is continually shown that black people don't matter.  

If they bring about policy changes that prevent more deaths.  That's a win.

Some people only want to push the narrative that supports their short-term goals of ignoring injustice in any way they can. Some people just want to cover their ears and close their eyes and make childish baby noises until it's all over because systemic racism doesn't affect them. 

The term 'check your privilege' exists for these people. I've learned that no amount of compassion or reason or 'bigger picture' talk gets through to them, becuase the bigger picture was never actually their goal. They say it's about the greater good, but it isn't, just like how it is for those who deny climate change or are anti-vaxx or claim that 'all lives matter'. IT's not about the bigger picture, it's about whatever path allows them to avoid the most strife; it's about whatever they can do to avoid taking responsibility for their actions; it's all about the path of least resistance in quest for the most short-term gains. 

I don't like violence - I think I've said that enough to make it clear - but riots and violent uprisings are sometimes the only way to make positive, long-term change. I wish it wasn't (I would like to think that we as a species are above that, but clearly not), but it is. Slavery didn't end over a lengthy conversation at dinner. Segregation didn't end over a friendly game of squash. Nazis didn't see the error of their ways due to some scathing criticism through the media. sure, Ghandi did some good by peacefully obstructing the path, but he's the exception as opposed to the rule. In reality, you have to fight to make change. If someone's coming at you with a knife, you take action, you don't just plead with them. If your house is on fire, you don't peacefully leave and find a new home, you fight that fire and you put it out. 

If an issue needs attention, it needs attention. Simple wellwishing won't do shit. I wish it did. We all wish it did. I hoped the world wouldn't come to any of this, but it has. Systemic racism in the US is a very deep-cutting issue (one that got worse ever since Trump got elected, since his blatant racism and xenophobia emboldened those who used to know enough to keep their shitty opinions to themselves), and it has been for a long time and will continue to be unless progress is made. 

They tried kneeling at football games. but that didn't work. 

They tried all manner of peaceful protests, but it's still happening. 

they tried the path of peace and unity, but it didn't work. When all else fails and violence is all you have left, it's the only language that makes the oppressors listen. At this point, it's less a matter of 'please don't disproportionately murder and target black men' and more a 'okay, you keep disproportionately targeting black men, I guess we gotta start burning down buildings to make you realize we're serious about this.'

Nobody wants violence, but 70 fucking years of peaceful protests and black men are STILL treated like garbage and unfairly targetted? Yeah, maybe some buildings need to burn. I'd rather burn down a Target than have more black men killed by callous, racist officers in a heartbeat. 

"They tried all manner of peaceful protests, but it's still happening."

>And the most violent of protests will not guarantee it will stop happening.

The very nature of this business, law enforcement, means there will always be confrontation in some way and of some kind. You can enact whatever measures you want but there will always be potential for something going wrong at some point in some way. Someone will get careless, someone will get lazy, someone will get nervous, someone will get fed up, someone will get confused, someone will get panicky, someone will get murderous, someone will get forgetful.

Shit's fucked up yo but if you've got an idea, go ahead and share it. I'd love to hear it.