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Forums - Sales Discussion - Global Hardware 15 December 2018

EricHiggin said:
drinkandswim said:

So far!

You say that like consoles are a brand new type of product. Assuming they may bend a little, sure, but to become a PC, assuming all their games are able to play on PC as well, really leaves them with little advantage, which is a big reason to keep them separate.

Consoles have changed quite a bit over the years never know they could evolve and find a new advantage.



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drinkandswim said:
EricHiggin said:

You say that like consoles are a brand new type of product. Assuming they may bend a little, sure, but to become a PC, assuming all their games are able to play on PC as well, really leaves them with little advantage, which is a big reason to keep them separate.

Consoles have changed quite a bit over the years never know they could evolve and find a new advantage.

Like how instead of Nin making a PC console they made a closed hybrid?



EricHiggin said:
drinkandswim said:

Consoles have changed quite a bit over the years never know they could evolve and find a new advantage.

Like how instead of Nin making a PC console they made a closed hybrid?

Well so you think. Actually the whole board inside the Switch is modular and can be directly replaced with the Tegra X2 or Tegra X2i.



RolStoppable said:
CrazyGPU said:

It´s not semantics. The power envelope and the graphics capabilities shows that its a mobile device. 

The one thing that matters is that Switch functions like a home console, because it's not missing any features that people expect based on previous Nintendo home consoles.

Since you are the point of origin of this discussion, I'll look over your justification. I am adding numbers to your post for better reference what I am replying to.

CrazyGPU said:

Facts on Switch and Nintendo:
1. Nintendo was very smart selling a hanheld console with TV conectivity as a home console.
2. Power envelope and graphics are of a mobile device, even the new iphone or Galaxy have faster processors.
3. Some 3rd party games run on it, but they are specially made and really downgraded graphically compared to the other consoles.
4. They sell it at 300 with 60 USS games because they are GREEDY and Nintendo fans pay anyway, like iphone fans buy 1500 USS iphone XS.
5. They have high quality exclusives games with great creativity.

1. A common fallacy is to use Switch's portability as decisive factor to call it a handheld console, but a hybrid requires portability just as much as a standard handheld console, so portability in and of itself is not enough to classify a console. Someone has already said that PSP and PSV are hybrids as well, but that falls flat on its face because PSP and PSV games remain single-player games when connected to a TV, unlike on Switch where games can be played by up to eight people simultaneously. What makes Switch a hybrid is that it does both what a home console and what a handheld do.

2. If processing power were a decisive factor, the Wii wouldn't be a home console anymore. As such, your statement is irrelevant to the question at hand.

3. If AAA third party games were a decisive factor, the Wii wouldn't be a home console anymore. As such, your statement is irrelevant to the question at hand.

4. Switch is sold for $300 because it combines the functionality of two devices into one without making any significant compromises. As such, $300 isn't remotely close to greedy because a separate home console and handheld console amounted to $400+ in the preceding two generations. Switch games are sold for $60 because they are home console games.

5. This is a surprisingly accurate statement coming off four headscratchers in a row. It looks like you already realized at that point that you are flirting with a moderation, so you said something that's basically the opposite of your otherwise condescending and belittling tone.

6. PS4 sold more when switch launched, and the year after. Its an indirect competitor. Didn´t hurt PS4 sales, its on another segment, like Intrinsic said with cars.

7. If you add the people who bought 3DS and Wii U, then you see who is buying Switch. Mobile fans. Also you can see that with Japan exploding. Take all Japan sales to see how many Switchs are selling elsewere. That doesn´t mean that some others are, but are not the core buyers.

8. For the nature of Nintendo games and mobility, Switch is best suitted as a christmas gift for kids and thats why sales explode in the holidays. 

6. This dichotomy of direct/indirect competition has taken on a life on its own. It's much more accurate to call the market situation symmetrical/asymmetrical competition, because that refers to competition that is either based on the same set of values on offer or on different sets of values. PS4 and Switch are different, but both compete for the customer who is looking for console games, so they are in direct competition for the same dollars. XB1 is in symmetrical competition with the PS4 while Switch is in asymmetrical competition with the PS4. Indirect competition would be something like console vs. smartphone games. Symmetrical competition results in more of a zero sum game whereas asymmetrical competition is additive, provided any given customer has the money for more than one console.

7. zorg1000 already touched on how flawed that statement is. The Switch sales trend strongly suggests that customers take their pick whether they use Switch as home console, handheld console or even both, therefore making the console a perfectly viable hybrid instead of merely a handheld console that is connected to a TV like you try to insinuate.

8. Ah yes, the classic "Nintendo is for kids" line. Looks like point 5 has become irrelevant by this point and is indeed not a point that interconnects with the rest of your post, but is positioned as a shield of sorts.

9. Nintendo doesn´t hurt Sony, It helps Sony. 
Nintendo is usually the starting point for a gamer. 
I go to Mc Donalds and I can´t find toys with The Last of Us, But I frequently find Nintendo toys. 

Kids love them, then they want the console. And their parents played nintendo as kids, so many buy it. 

Of course some kids also play PS4 or XBOX games, but Nintendo is more kid oriented, and their games for kids are usually better with all Nintendo caracters.
When this kids are adults, some will still play nintendo, but many will look for more mature games, and buy the others consoles and games. 

If Nintendo weren´t there, the seed woudn´t be planted and kids would be doing something else unless some other company take nintendo place. 
But for now, Nintendo helps to keep the industry and future Sony and Microsoft sales.

10. Edit: I forgot. for those that say that the switch is everything because you have a home and mobile device,

The Switch is like a duck, it can run, fly and swim. But it flies like a duck. And PS4 and XBOX are eagles. Don´t compare ducs and eagles ,the flying experience is different ;)

that doesn´t make the ps4 swim..... choises.

9. Sounds like you are trying to comfort yourself because Switch is selling so well. Unsurprisingly, your description of gamer progression is inaccurate because it has three steps and not just two. Firstly, a lot of people do start out with Nintendo. Secondly, a lot of the same people turn their backs on Nintendo when they become teenagers and "grow up". Thirdly, a lot of the people who turned their backs on Nintendo eventually come back when they've truly grown up and reached adulthood, recognizing that age rating on games has nothing to do with actual maturity.

10. That's a fitting analogy to close out your post. Fitting, because it should remove the last doubts anyone could have had about your mindset. Point 5 stands out as something that doesn't fit in with the rest of the post.

Lastly, I wouldn't say the Switch is a duck. It's more like a raccoon with a P-Wing.

1- Ok multiplayer handheld hibrid console. 

2- Wii was also in another market than ps3 and Xbox. It was a casual gamer device that sold well for the price of half the others and the introduction of a new way to game, the controls. 

3-I didn´t speak about AAA games. I said that the multiplats for switch are greatly downgraded so the mobile chip can run them.

4-Switch is very cheap, and its software much cheaper to make than 4k AAA games. Nintendo is Greeeeedy.

5- all are acurate

6- call the name you like, Switch didn´t slow ps4 sales, so it didn´t take many sony´s dollars, and if it did it wasn´t much at all.

7- Nintendo is rolling on the floor laughing because they are selling the cheap handheld with TV conectivity for 300 and every fan is buying it. You can call it an hibrid, I would say then a very Underpowered hibrid console then. And thats the same as a mobile console with TV conection.

8- Take out the remakes of Spiro or Crash. How many quality games for kids do you have on PS4 or Xbox? now on Switch, the remasters Zelda and Kart, the new Mario, Splatoon, Arms, SM party and so on. All with the caracters you can buy at McDonalds when you are a kid. Not that an Adult can´t play, there are many games, but its more kid oriented and it shows on Christmas sales. 

9- some old nostalgic adults go back to Nintendo. Im one in a way, I have a SNES mini. Awesome machine. Not like the shitty Playstation Greedy Classic that I don´t plan to buy. For modern games PS4 pro is my choise, Love Naughty Dog, Quantic Dreams, Santa Monica for their quality SP games. 

10- I corrected  myself, not a duck, people wrote that ducks fly well, Switch is a chicken and PS4 pro and Xbox one X are eagles or falcons. ;) 

 

User warned for this post ~ PwerlvlAmy

Last edited by PwerlvlAmy - on 09 January 2019

drinkandswim said:
EricHiggin said:

Like how instead of Nin making a PC console they made a closed hybrid?

Well so you think. Actually the whole board inside the Switch is modular and can be directly replaced with the Tegra X2 or Tegra X2i.

I wasn't really talking about hardware in terms of the closed aspect, but how many Switch owners have upgraded to that? Zero? If it's just a design feature so Nin can upgrade it later then that doesn't make it an open platform.



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EricHiggin said:
drinkandswim said:

Well so you think. Actually the whole board inside the Switch is modular and can be directly replaced with the Tegra X2 or Tegra X2i.

I wasn't really talking about hardware in terms of the closed aspect, but how many Switch owners have upgraded to that? Zero? If it's just a design feature so Nin can upgrade it later then that doesn't make it an open platform.

Yeah I think they are separate im just saying they can blur the lines.



COKTOE said:
kirby007 said:

But guys it doesnt matter anyway since the switch isnt even the same generation

That's right! Online alone is probably....I'd peg it at around......gen 5.5. Not quite at the level of the XBL rollout in 2002, but comfortably ahead of the Sega Saturn.

Tsk tsk coktoe, do I see you comparing the switch to.... HOME CONSOLES???

 

But yeah for the people trying to say this thread was not impacted by downplaying, please look at the pages of posts discussing if the PC is a console, if a 760 or 2080 is required, ifNinten are in the console market anymore, if the fact that the switches power dictates it isn't allowed to be a console (when the Wii and x1 base model both run many games in sub 720p exist) but yeah... Look at those posts and think "how are they related to the weekly sales of the consoles tracked here" the attempts to derail from talking about the actually numbers is incredible.

 

I guess it's cool to see those posts lock this to the first page for so long and get so many replies in the weekly sales thread, shows the passion people have for the system one way or the other.

 

Edit - to put context on the above statement there hasn't been a weekly sales thread reach the numbers of replies the last two weeks have got ten since at least april of last year. Passion!

Last edited by Ganoncrotch - on 09 January 2019

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DonFerrari said:
OTBWY said:

The Switch is competing directly with the PS4. That's a fact. I don't know what you even mean with "another market" as they are in the same market. Video game entertainment.

Nope, it isn't. If a competitor entering the market doesn't shift your sales (and PS4 had it's best year when Switch launched, and this year is like 2nd or 3rd best with the decline being natural for the age of the console and hitting peak last year) then it isn't a direct competitor.

If Xbox wasn't on the market (mainly USA and UK) PS4 sales would have been considerably higher.

Come next gen and if Switch 2 eat away market from PS5 or X4 then you can claim this.

Xbox 360 launched a year before the PS3, but the 360 sales in the first full year after the PS3 launch went up also, so by your own conclusion Playstation isn't competing with Xbox either. Nobody is competing with nobody, folks, just got the proof here!

It doesn't matter if a console makes record sales the year a competitor launches, they still share the same market. Most probably even more would have bought a PS4 by now if the Switch hadn't launched, so Switch is giving some competition and share the same market. What they don't share is the same angle unlike the Xbox One. Even apart from the portability, Games on the Switch tend to be different to those on the PS4, which allows for some cohabitation between the two (hence why Nintendo is often called a "secondary" console) - but someone who wants to buy a console still has to decide which one they want to buy between those available. And when someone has both a Switch and another console, they have to decide for which platform they'll buy games.

Also, just look here on the forums and you'll find plenty of threads and posts of people who prefer some game on a platform over another - and most of the recent ones are about Switch version instead of PS4 or XBO. That alone shows that they are all in on the same market and compete all with each other. Also how many posts and threads are there from people who bought a Switch and then their former main console suddly became mostly a dust collector? I don't know, but there were plenty in the last year and a half.



DarthMetalliCube said:

Damn.. That Smash Bros. effect though..

With regards to a couple of the ongoing squabbles - can I play the Switch as a home console? Then it's a home console. It's also a handheld console. It's literally as simple as this folks. There's such a thing as grey area, it doesn't have to be black and white.

Additionally, yes the Switch is a competitor to the PS4. The Switch is a video game console. The PS4/Xbox One are also video game consoles. Again, simple stuff, people. They even have many of the exact same games.

Sure you could say they are vastly different in certain areas, and that there are segments of the market that Nintendo will reach that Sony simply will not, and vice versa, but I don't know how you can do these mental gymnastics trying to justify how two video game consoles (no matter how different), aren't inevitably going to have at least some overlap in terms of competing for the same market. They compete for the same dollars of largely the same market of people who play video games.

Put it this way - When I decide to invest in Smash Bros Ultimate, that's money out of my pocket that I likely would have been more inclined to spend on, say Assassin's Creed Odyssey for my Xbox One, which I otherwise am going to be waiting a bit for a price drop on that one. When I decide to pick up another Xbox One controller, that causes me to hold off on snagging that extra pair of expensive joycons. And so on.. It also is a competition for my gaming time, as I can only play one console at a time.

I do find it interesting that you only tend to hear these justifications as to how Nintendo is doing a "different thing" when they are outselling the competition. When they are not though, people sure are quick to harp on the fact the non-competing PS4 is outperforming the Switch..

AMEN!!!! Couldn't have said it any better!



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Biggerboat1 said:
Intrinsic said:

Well first off... you are right. My opinion could very well be misguided especially considering the extremist nature of my qualification.

But you will be wrong to assume that I am saying that because the NS is not in the home console business anymore it means I am saying they are in the handheld business. I am not, cause I don't think the NS is a handheld either. 

I think its a hybrid.

Now as I have explained, while its a hybrid I feel it has more in common with a handheld than a hme console, I feel it was built from the round up as a handheld albeit one built for 2017 but it is by all means a hybrid.

Now that could explain why it sells for what it sells, that could be one of the home console thins it has inherited too. So the same way I will argue that nintend has pulled out of the traditional home console market is the same way I would argue that they have pulled out of the traditional handheld market. Its a hybrid. 

Can't you see how silly that sounds though...

Nintendo employs the same people it did before Switch came out, makes the same games, sells to the same market - yet according to you they have pulled out of 1 business, are pulling out of another and have moved into a completely new business...

Does it not make more sense that that by creating a single hybrid they remain in both the handheld and home console markets? 

Take the Surface Book - it's a hybrid - it's design allows it to be a tablet and a laptop, rather than precludes it from being either - which seems to be what you're saying...

They have repositioned themselves in the market. After the Wii U and 3ds it was badly needed.