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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Report- MS working on 2 next-gen Scarlett family consoles for release Holiday 2020, handheld gaming peripherals with Razer

Nate4Drake on 18 December 2018
Soundwave said:
Anaconda will have the best specs. MS is never going to let Sony outpower them again on the hardware front, they learned their lesson this past gen on that.

It depends on price.  If both have same price and released on Nov 2020, well, they would probably have similar specs, unless MS or Sony completely mess up everything, like MS did with X1 on Launch with Kinect2 included in every box and the rest, we know.    Both Sony and MS want to release a beast.  Now if Sony will release only one SKU, yeah, you might be right, 'cause PS5 would cost less than "Anaconda", which is gonna be the "Elite" SKU from MS, and more expensive !  We will see :)



”Every great dream begins with a dreamer. Always remember, you have within you the strength, the patience, and the passion to reach for the stars to change the world.”

Harriet Tubman.

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Otter on 18 December 2018
AsGryffynn said:
shikamaru317 said:

Yes, Scarlett is the family name for all next-gen Xbox projects it seems, while Lockhart is the weaker next-gen console and Anaconda is the stronger next-gen console. In terms of specs, Anaconda is rumored to be quite a bit above XB1 X and Lockhart actually, we've heard rumors of it having at least a 12 tflop Navi GPU, which is double the 6 tflop GPU in XB1 X on paper (and probably more than double in real world performance when you take architectural improvements on Navi into consideration), and I wouldn't be surprised if it has 16 GB of GDDR6 memory as opposed to 12 GB of GDDR5 in XB1 X and Lockhart.

Not sure what you mean on the 2nd paragraph.

Most likely because the weak Jaguar CPU in XB1 X can't handle next-gen games without causing framerate issues, we've already seen several current gen games having issues caused by the weak Jaguar CPU's, those issues will only be worse next-gen with games being optimized for the Ryzen CPU's in Anaconda and PS5. I'm assuming that Lockhart is going to have the XB1 X GPU and memory paired with a low-end Ryzen CPU which should prevent any CPU bottlenecks from happening. Lockhart kind of feels like a middle finger to XB1 X buyers for sure though, and it is exactly why MS should have used a Ryzen CPU in XB1 X to start with even if they had to sell at a small loss to do it, so that it could have played next-gen games at 1080p with no issues.

If what I gather is correct, this means Anaconda won't be a drastic improvement of the One X. It will only shore up on the only area where the X is lacking: CPU. Frame rate falls when the amount of NPCs is so high the current CPU becomes unwieldy (this is what led to the anomalous performance gap in games like Assassins' Creed or Fallout 4, where the best OG XONE rig often performed better than the PS4 despite the GPU and unified RAM). 

Not to mention, if they approach AMD now, they can secure a good deal for a "maxed out" rig to assemble into the new console and thus bar Sony from having superior hardware next gen, because going further will end up costing a lot more. 

I am just glad they've decided to stick around. My gaming future would've been sad if they left. Without Origin, Sony, Nintendo and Steam, the only option left is MS. 

I think this was always going to be the case with a mid-gen upgrade, at least on paper I don't expect anaconda to do much more than x2.5 performance of XB1X . The difference will be where the power is applied. Right now X1X is running PS4 level graphics at 4k, graphically we're looking at the same presentation, Just sharper with some higher res textures. Anaconda and Lockhart will both provide a new generation of graphical presentation that is not available on X1X: Lockhart will just do so at the expense of native 4k targets, but without any compromise to the CPU and overall performance. The reality is many people just do not need 4k for their home gaming set-up, they don't have TV's big enough or sit close enough for it to make a meaningful difference.  

Also I'm sure there will be huge advances in the architecture and built in rendering solutions of next gen hardware that will allow the low range Lockhart to do things X1X  couldn't do despite them not being drastically different in flops, a bit like what we see with Nvidia DLSS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMbgvXde-YA



Trumpstyle on 18 December 2018
shikamaru317 said:
Trumpstyle said:

Yep at latest E3 Phil Spencer said they were making new consoles with a plural, that means either 2 or more consoles for next-gen I guess. And a streaming box just doesn't make any sense, Sony tried this with PS now and it was a complete failure, I don't think Microsoft can do any better.

A 300$ and 500$ console makes better sense, this way they will have the most powerful console and the cheapest one in the next-gen war against Sony.

Actually, we have recent rumors of a streaming box as well, that has a decent chipset in it that runs latency dependent tasks locally. https://mspoweruser.com/rumored-xbox-streaming-box-reportedly-powered-by-custom-amd-picasso-chip/ I think we could see something like this next gen:

$250- Streaming Box

$350- Lockhart

$500- Anaconda  

 

It's also possible that we will see discless variants of Lockhart and Anaconda for $50 cheaper than the disc-drive variants, since MS is testing the viability of a discless console with the discless S next year, so we could see:

$250- Streaming box

$300- Discless Lockhart

$350- Lockhart

$450- Discless Anaconda

$500- Anaconda

Yeah I still don't believe in a streaming box, windowscentral leak never mentions a streaming box and the other dude (Brad Sams) who says a streaming box is in the works probably just didn't understand his source correctly, he must have confused streaming box with the hardware in the datacenters. But we will see.



6x master league achiever in starcraft2

Beaten Sigrun on God of war mode

Beaten DOOM ultra-nightmare with NO endless ammo-rune, 2x super shotgun and no decoys on ps4 pro.

1-0 against Grubby in Wc3 frozen throne ladder!!

Trumpstyle on 18 December 2018

Now with 2 leaks on Microsoft next-gen strategy and assuming Sony does a 399$ console, we now know pretty much the specs in these consoles as desktop zen2 and Navi has been leaked. Based on the leaks and a little speculation the specs we got is looking like this:

Xbox Two (Lockhart) 300$
CPU: 6 Core, 12-thread zen2, clocked at 2,4Ghz
Gpu: Navi with 32CU, 12 GB ram Gddr6, 288 GB/s bandwidth, 192-bit bus, Amd radeon 590 performance
Storage: 1TB mechanical drive with 64GB SSD storage

 

PS5 400$
CPU: 8 core, 16-thread zen2, clocked at 2,6Ghz
GPU: Navi with 48CU, 16 GB ram Gddr6, 448 GB/s bandwidth, 256-bit bus, Geforce 1080/vega64 performance
Storage: 1TB mechanical drive with 128GB SSD storage

 

Xbox Two+ (Anaconda) 500$
CPU: 8 core, 16-thread zen2, clocked at 3Ghz
GPU: Navi with 56CU, 24 GB ram Gddr6, 672 GB/s bandwidth, 384-bit bus, Geforce 2080 performance
Storage: 1TB mechanical drive with 128GB SSD storage
Will have Vapor chamber cooling for extra high clocks :) and be quiet as a stone.

We should get dev kits leaks within 7 months if history repeats itself. As in June 2012 there was already a forum post at Beyond3D that the Ps4 will have a SOC containing 8-core jaguar cpu with and a gpu similiar to amd radeon 7850.

Last edited by Trumpstyle - on 20 December 2018

6x master league achiever in starcraft2

Beaten Sigrun on God of war mode

Beaten DOOM ultra-nightmare with NO endless ammo-rune, 2x super shotgun and no decoys on ps4 pro.

1-0 against Grubby in Wc3 frozen throne ladder!!

DonFerrari on 18 December 2018
shikamaru317 said:
thismeintiel said:

4 SKUs?  I'm going to go with alienate it.  This is a similar problem Steam Box faced.  Instead of a nice simple launch, they had multiple SKUs by different manufacturers.  I mean, retailers are going to have to take a stinking course just to know the differences.  Good luck passing that info on to your average consumer.  And then there will be a simple $399 PS5 SKU sitting next to all that confusion.  I think most would just say screw it and grab the PS5.

Also, the OP mentions Navi for the XB2.  I'm thinking they may have to go with Vega.  If AMD is truly working as closely with Sony in creating at least the first round of Navi GPUs as insiders have stated, I just don't see Sony being fine with them handing that tech right over to their competitors.  I would think Sony would have a console exclusivity agreement on that for at least a year or two.

Considering 2 of them are streaming boxes it shouldn't be too hard to explain the differences to people. Just name them smartly and clearly label on the boxes which ones are for streaming and which are normal consoles, and make sure to put 1080p on the Lockhart box and 4K on the Anaconda box. The goal seems to be making Xbox more like the Surface family, where they have the Surface, Surface Prop, Surface Book, Surface Laptop, Surface Studio, and Surface Hub product lines.

Both PS5 and Anaconda seem to be using Navi, as Brad Sams said that Anaconda is using a Ryzen 2 CPU and a "next-gen" AMD GPU. The next graphics generation for AMD after the current Vega is Navi. https://wccftech.com/xbox-scarlett-4k-60fps/ The report that said that Sony was designing Navi with AMD was never confirmed and I'm not even sure which insider leaked it. Brad Sams on the other hand has very good sources at MS, leaking multiple MS products over the years. Anaconda is either using Navi, or MS is working with AMD to design a fully custom AMD GPU rather than a semi-custom AMD GPU based on the PC Navi line. 

Simpler approach will probably be more efficient.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

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DonFerrari on 18 December 2018
AsGryffynn said:
shikamaru317 said:

Yes, Scarlett is the family name for all next-gen Xbox projects it seems, while Lockhart is the weaker next-gen console and Anaconda is the stronger next-gen console. In terms of specs, Anaconda is rumored to be quite a bit above XB1 X and Lockhart actually, we've heard rumors of it having at least a 12 tflop Navi GPU, which is double the 6 tflop GPU in XB1 X on paper (and probably more than double in real world performance when you take architectural improvements on Navi into consideration), and I wouldn't be surprised if it has 16 GB of GDDR6 memory as opposed to 12 GB of GDDR5 in XB1 X and Lockhart.

Not sure what you mean on the 2nd paragraph.

Most likely because the weak Jaguar CPU in XB1 X can't handle next-gen games without causing framerate issues, we've already seen several current gen games having issues caused by the weak Jaguar CPU's, those issues will only be worse next-gen with games being optimized for the Ryzen CPU's in Anaconda and PS5. I'm assuming that Lockhart is going to have the XB1 X GPU and memory paired with a low-end Ryzen CPU which should prevent any CPU bottlenecks from happening. Lockhart kind of feels like a middle finger to XB1 X buyers for sure though, and it is exactly why MS should have used a Ryzen CPU in XB1 X to start with even if they had to sell at a small loss to do it, so that it could have played next-gen games at 1080p with no issues.

If what I gather is correct, this means Anaconda won't be a drastic improvement of the One X. It will only shore up on the only area where the X is lacking: CPU. Frame rate falls when the amount of NPCs is so high the current CPU becomes unwieldy (this is what led to the anomalous performance gap in games like Assassins' Creed or Fallout 4, where the best OG XONE rig often performed better than the PS4 despite the GPU and unified RAM). 

Not to mention, if they approach AMD now, they can secure a good deal for a "maxed out" rig to assemble into the new console and thus bar Sony from having superior hardware next gen, because going further will end up costing a lot more. 

I am just glad they've decided to stick around. My gaming future would've been sad if they left. Without Origin, Sony, Nintendo and Steam, the only option left is MS. 

Why they approaching AMD now would prevent Sony from having the superior HW?

Soundwave said:
Gaming consoles are simply going to become more and more like the PC model where the consumer has multiple hardware config choices and games run on multiple hardware configs.

That's just how its going to be IMO for all three of Sony/MS/Nintendo eventually. The days of a platform being just "one system" are nearing an end.

Still there are plenty of customers that don't want that, they like the simpler way on consoles where it's easy to just buy one console and have access to all its game without having to compare details among SKUs.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari on 18 December 2018
Soundwave said:
Anaconda will have the best specs. MS is never going to let Sony outpower them again on the hardware front, they learned their lesson this past gen on that.

PS3 and PS4 had better HW than X360 and X1.

MS also said (lied) at the start of this gen that they wouldn't never allow sony to have 30% advantage on HW (after the reveal).

And how would MS know for sure that their hardware isn't outpowered before Sony either announce or release the HW? The only way they can be sure is if they always take over 12 months later than Sony to release their HW (because not all HW change can be made fast and worse, the time to dev SW for it)... or are you suggesting MS will have access to confidential development documents from Sony?



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

smroadkill15 on 18 December 2018

This is a great move by MS if true. Offer a more affordable option and a premium option, like how they have it now with S and X models. Easy way to cover all bases. I really like how aggressive MS is going into next gen. They know they have to start off the generation right. Sony may or may not offer something similar. We'll see...



Random_Matt on 18 December 2018

So console A is being held back from console B, brilliant idea.



DonFerrari on 18 December 2018
shikamaru317 said:
DonFerrari said:

PS3 and PS4 had better HW than X360 and X1.

MS also said (lied) at the start of this gen that they wouldn't never allow sony to have 30% advantage on HW (after the reveal).

And how would MS know for sure that their hardware isn't outpowered before Sony either announce or release the HW? The only way they can be sure is if they always take over 12 months later than Sony to release their HW (because not all HW change can be made fast and worse, the time to dev SW for it)... or are you suggesting MS will have access to confidential development documents from Sony?

The simplest way to make sure that they are the most powerful again next gen, is to go with $550 or $600 hardware, but then sell it at a loss on release for $500. Sony most likely is going to aim for $400 anyway because it worked well for them this gen, so MS will probably still be more powerful with $500 hardware selling at a break even price of $500 on launch. 

I have a feeling we're going to see Lockhart/Scarlett Arcade at $300, PS5 at $400, and Anaconda/Scarlett Pro at $500 personally. Most likely they will all play multiplats with the same level of graphics, but at 1080p on Scarlett Arcade, 1800p on PS5, and 4k on Scarlett Pro.

And for certain MS have made an agreement with Sony so they don't go Ken crazy again and make a 800 USD HW that they sell for 499/599 right?

Also if MS really puts a 300-500 duo that basically are an X1X equivalent and a higher performance HW, versus a much better than X1X HW (but less than the premium offer from MS) at 400 who do you really think will win the gen? Let me give you something.

PS4 is the first console to have ever won being the most powerful at start of gen, all other in previous gen lost. So being the most powerful doesn't warranty good sales (we have plenty overpowered duds in the past). Being less expensive but giving a not up to standard experience also doesn't solve it, as show by WiiU and others as well.

You really need a good package to strike success, so sure this 300/500 duo can have success, but the lessons learned is more that you shouldn't release a more expensive HW with less perfomance because of a mandatory add-on that doesn't have relevant usage.

X1X is much more powerful than X1 and sells probably less than 1/3 of the total X1 sales. PS4Pro is about 25%. And X1X doesn't outsell PS4Pro as well.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."