EnricoPallazzo said:
JRPGfan said:

"The US and China are reportedly among 20 countries attempting to prevent Britain from agreeing a fast-track deal with the World Trade Organisation (WTO) on its post-Brexit terms of trade with the rest of the world. Liam Fox, the international trade secretary, admitted several WTO members had “expressed reservations” about the government’s plan to stay on terms similar to those it still enjoys as a member of the European Union (EU). Britain is a full member of the WTO, but its membership is bound up with the EU, meaning it has to come to an independent agreement with the trade body." - Alan Marr (YT)


LMAO....
Give us WTO rules then!

That might not even happend jan 1st 2021.
Apparently theres 20+ countries blocking the UK, amoung them the USA and China.
Claiming the only reason the UK was part of it (WTO membership) was bound to the EU being in.

This means the UK will have to apply for a membership to the WTO and first get accepted into it again.

Because of this mess the UK has, where there will be a 6month time window without controll of its borders (their own trade minster claims such).....
and smuggleing issues, I could see them getting rejected.

What happends then?

No planes will be able to land in britain, neither fly from, people will starve in the streets as no food will be able to arrive in the island. Hospitals will get rioted by people looking for medicines. All companies will leave britain. Scotland will get their independance and Ireland will be reunited. Churchill statue will be teared down finally. A reverse Dunkirk will happen with people fleeing for EU, which of course will shut its borders leaving the brits to die at the beach suffering with the outbreak of gonorrhea as they didnt have medication to treat it. 

At the very end, EU will use it as an example for any country trying to leave the union, while it proceeds with it's plans to add more countries to the union and finally implementing fiscal union. It will be clear that it will be impossible for any country to leave, ever.

A joke reply.
But its a very real situation.... and I ment it as a real question.

What happends if the UK leaves the EU, and cannot even get WTO membership?
How much power does China and USA have over the WTO? and if their against the UK just joining because it used to have membership through being apart of the EU (which it isnt now) and will have to reapply to get membership (which it might not get, due to not haveing border controll).

What happends?

What happends to a UK that cannot get WTO membership as soon as it crashes out of the EU (jan 1st 2021).

edit:

This is from jan 2019:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/27/uk-cannot-simply-trade-on-wto-terms-after-no-deal-brexit-say-experts

"The UK will be unable to have frictionless, tariff-free trade under World Trade Organization rules for up to seven years in the event of a no-deal Brexit, according to two leading European Union law specialists.

The ensuing chaos could double food prices and plunge Britain into a recession that could last up to 30 years, claim the lawyers who acted for Gina Miller in the historic case that forced the government to seek parliament’s approval to leave the EU.

It has been claimed that the UK could simply move to WTO terms if there is no deal with the EU. But Anneli Howard, a specialist in EU and competition law at Monckton Chambers and a member of the bar’s Brexit working group, believes this isn’t true.

“No deal means leaving with nothing,” she said. “The anticipated recession will be worse than the 1930s, let alone 2008. It is impossible to say how long it would go on for. Some economists say 10 years, others say the effects could be felt for 20 or even 30 years: even ardent Brexiters agree it could be decades.”

There are two apparently insurmountable hurdles to the UK trading on current WTO tariffs in the event of Britain crashing out in March, said Howard.Firstly, the UK must produce its own schedule covering both services and each of the 5,000-plus product lines covered in the WTO agreement and get it agreed by all the 163 WTO states.

A number of states have already raised objections to the UK’s draft schedule: 20 over goods and three over services.

To make it more complicated, there are no “default terms” Britain can crash out on, Howard said, while at the same time, the UK has been blocked by WTO members from simply relying on the EU’s “schedule” – its existing tariffs and tariff-free trade quotas.

The second hurdle is the sheer volume of domestic legislation that would need to be passed before being able to trade under WTO rules: there are nine statutes and 600 statutory instruments that would need to be adopted.

The government cannot simply cut and paste the 120,000 EU statutes into UK law and then make changes to them gradually, Howard said. “The UK will need to set up new enforcement bodies and transfer new powers to regulators to create our own domestic regimes,” she said.

“Basic maths shows that we will run out of time but any gap in our system will create uncertainty or conflict,” said Howard. “Some of these regimes carry penalties such as fines – even criminal offences in some sectors.”

“Negotiating and ratifying the international free trade deals with the rest of the world alone could take over seven years,” she said.

“A no-deal Brexit could double prices for some products like meat and dairy. There is also a greater risk of trade disputes and sanctions, resulting in reduced market access for UK businesses.

“It’s not just about money,” she said. “We are dependent on imports for a lot of things that we don’t make any more or don’t make enough of, or simply cannot make as they are patented or subject to rules of origin – like lifesaving drugs, radioactive isotopes, chemicals (such as helium for MRI scans), medical equipment, chemicals, electricity, petrol, even milk. Shortages and delays could cause panic buying or even civil unrest.”

Howard dismissed ideas of a transition period enabling a “gradual transition” to WTO rules as “unicorns”. “The UK will have to start negotiating over 50 free trade agreements from scratch once we leave the EU. In the meantime we will have to pay tariffs.”"

Back in jan 2019, 23 nations didnt agree to UK just getting membership of WTO, due to concerns over goods&services.
Apparently these remain until today.

Its getting serious now right? what happends jan 1st?


UK will just have to accept it losses access to certain market items, even ones it might need?
Ontop of tariffs that could on certain items double their prices?

Great, sounds fun.

Last edited by JRPGfan - on 15 July 2020

Around the Network
JRPGfan said:
EnricoPallazzo said:

No planes will be able to land in britain, neither fly from, people will starve in the streets as no food will be able to arrive in the island. Hospitals will get rioted by people looking for medicines. All companies will leave britain. Scotland will get their independance and Ireland will be reunited. Churchill statue will be teared down finally. A reverse Dunkirk will happen with people fleeing for EU, which of course will shut its borders leaving the brits to die at the beach suffering with the outbreak of gonorrhea as they didnt have medication to treat it. 

At the very end, EU will use it as an example for any country trying to leave the union, while it proceeds with it's plans to add more countries to the union and finally implementing fiscal union. It will be clear that it will be impossible for any country to leave, ever.

A joke reply.
But its a very real situation.... and I ment it as a real question.

What happends if the UK leaves the EU, and cannot even get WTO membership?
How much power does China and USA have over the WTO? and if their against the UK just joining because it used to have membership through being apart of the EU (which it isnt now) and will have to reapply to get membership (which it might not get, due to not haveing border controll).

What happends?

What happends to a UK that cannot get WTO membership as soon as it crashes out of the EU (jan 1st 2021).

edit:

This is from jan 2019:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/27/uk-cannot-simply-trade-on-wto-terms-after-no-deal-brexit-say-experts

"The UK will be unable to have frictionless, tariff-free trade under World Trade Organization rules for up to seven years in the event of a no-deal Brexit, according to two leading European Union law specialists.

The ensuing chaos could double food prices and plunge Britain into a recession that could last up to 30 years, claim the lawyers who acted for Gina Miller in the historic case that forced the government to seek parliament’s approval to leave the EU.

It has been claimed that the UK could simply move to WTO terms if there is no deal with the EU. But Anneli Howard, a specialist in EU and competition law at Monckton Chambers and a member of the bar’s Brexit working group, believes this isn’t true.

“No deal means leaving with nothing,” she said. “The anticipated recession will be worse than the 1930s, let alone 2008. It is impossible to say how long it would go on for. Some economists say 10 years, others say the effects could be felt for 20 or even 30 years: even ardent Brexiters agree it could be decades.”

There are two apparently insurmountable hurdles to the UK trading on current WTO tariffs in the event of Britain crashing out in March, said Howard.Firstly, the UK must produce its own schedule covering both services and each of the 5,000-plus product lines covered in the WTO agreement and get it agreed by all the 163 WTO states.

A number of states have already raised objections to the UK’s draft schedule: 20 over goods and three over services.

To make it more complicated, there are no “default terms” Britain can crash out on, Howard said, while at the same time, the UK has been blocked by WTO members from simply relying on the EU’s “schedule” – its existing tariffs and tariff-free trade quotas.

The second hurdle is the sheer volume of domestic legislation that would need to be passed before being able to trade under WTO rules: there are nine statutes and 600 statutory instruments that would need to be adopted.

The government cannot simply cut and paste the 120,000 EU statutes into UK law and then make changes to them gradually, Howard said. “The UK will need to set up new enforcement bodies and transfer new powers to regulators to create our own domestic regimes,” she said.

“Basic maths shows that we will run out of time but any gap in our system will create uncertainty or conflict,” said Howard. “Some of these regimes carry penalties such as fines – even criminal offences in some sectors.”

“Negotiating and ratifying the international free trade deals with the rest of the world alone could take over seven years,” she said.

“A no-deal Brexit could double prices for some products like meat and dairy. There is also a greater risk of trade disputes and sanctions, resulting in reduced market access for UK businesses.

“It’s not just about money,” she said. “We are dependent on imports for a lot of things that we don’t make any more or don’t make enough of, or simply cannot make as they are patented or subject to rules of origin – like lifesaving drugs, radioactive isotopes, chemicals (such as helium for MRI scans), medical equipment, chemicals, electricity, petrol, even milk. Shortages and delays could cause panic buying or even civil unrest.”

Howard dismissed ideas of a transition period enabling a “gradual transition” to WTO rules as “unicorns”. “The UK will have to start negotiating over 50 free trade agreements from scratch once we leave the EU. In the meantime we will have to pay tariffs.”"

Back in jan 2019, 23 nations didnt agree to UK just getting membership of WTO, due to concerns over goods&services.
Apparently these remain until today.

Its getting serious now right? what happends jan 1st?


UK will just have to accept it losses access to certain market items, even ones it might need?
Ontop of tariffs that could on certain items double their prices?

Great, sounds fun.

Nice reading, didnt know about the WTO blocking, I will get back to it later today



10,000+ be being kept in slave-like conditions in factories in Leicester:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSHyRMpKaBs


"Lester isnt the only city where this is happending, a report based on police record, has found that britain has atleast 100,000 slaves"


"Everybody knew" about Leicester sweatshops before they were uncovered - Leicester MP:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sD8vSibGUw



Wow.... UK.... 3£ pr hour workers, basically forced to work or starve.... in sweat shops, as modern day slaves.
Also the cash their given (in hand) is laundred from drug trade...

Apparently "everyone" in Leicester new about it, and just ignored it.
Hell one of these sweatshops is right next to a police station, the salves walk past it atleast twice a day.


This is why the EU wanted equal rights & worker protections, as a agreement.
They dont want the UK to become some slave worker state, that undermines the production in EU that uses fair wages and treats their workers better.

Why wouldn't the UK sign a bill stateing they are okay with treating theirs as well as the EU does?
Unless the plan is in future they wont?

Last edited by JRPGfan - on 16 July 2020

JRPGfan said:

10,000+ be being kept in slave-like conditions in factories in Leicester:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSHyRMpKaBs


"Lester isnt the only city where this is happending, a report based on police record, has found that britain has atleast 100,000 slaves"


"Everybody knew" about Leicester sweatshops before they were uncovered - Leicester MP:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sD8vSibGUw



Wow.... UK.... 3£ pr hour workers, basically forced to work or starve.... in sweat shops, as modern day slaves.
Also the cash their given (in hand) is laundred from drug trade...

Apparently "everyone" in Leicester new about it, and just ignored it.
Hell one of these sweatshops is right next to a police station, the salves walk past it atleast twice a day.


This is why the EU wanted equal rights & worker protections, as a agreement.
They dont want the UK to become some slave worker state, that undermines the production in EU that uses fair wages and treats their workers better.

Why wouldn't the UK sign a bill stateing they are okay with treating theirs as well as the EU does?
Unless the plan is in future they wont?

100000 of such sweatshop slaves in the UK???

That's just disgusting!



EnricoPallazzo said:
Ka-pi96 said:

He doesn't. He's trying to argue that those things not happening (taking things people have said could be an issue to the furthest possible extreme, ie. the worst possible, but not at all realistic, scenario) "proves" that brexit was a good idea.

A ridiculous argument for multiple reasons.

I live in UK so I know very well what is going on. I dont think brexit was a good idea. Its funny how people infer so many thing about you opinion even when you do not provide one. We had predictions for pre brexit and post brexit. The pre brexit predictions were mostly wrong and vastly exagerated. The predictions for post brexit today are already much less exagerated than 4 years ago and a lot of them wont hapeen at all.

You can do whatever you want with numbers and predictions and studies from think tanks, think about an outcome and you can find a math model for it.

And if it doesnt happen just say later it was an estimation. What I saw from traditional media here was shameful. But I guess that should not be a surprise.

Your profile says Italian. I assume you've been treated OK since the vote?

We were supposed to have holocausted you guys and the Polish because of how racist us and Boris are. You should have been arrested and deported at least.

I only became a hard Brexiteer when the other side got carried away with the lies. It became ridiculous. Literal apocalypse. At that point I didn't give a fuck. The whole establishment lined up to parrot the apocalypse line and I stopped listening to any Remain arguments. I know the downsides and possible upsides but when you're told you're doomed and you can't survive without some Commission in Brussels some people would rather die trying. I'm a free trader but CV has made me more protectionist. Silly really given that China-reliant supply chains quickly sorted themselves out after some initial madness.

I want a closer Europe but don't believe the EU allows the nations to play to their strengths. I'm in favour of Scottish independence too. The irony is it's England being held back by Scotland (and Wales and Northern Ireland). Scotland's potential fishing industry is worth way more (to the Gov) than the oil is especially when it's being sold at negative $30. When I say 'Europe (exUK) hasn't done anything of value recently', what I'm really saying is the US has been carrying Europe since pre-WW2.

I think most of the West has fell for the same debt trick that brings all empires/nations down eventually. I'm disappointed that all it took was greed, ambition for status and political expediency instead of a national/continental war for survival/dominance and I'm well aware that the UK is royally fucked in a Chinese world compared to the rest of Europe. I think Brexit resulted in China moving ahead of schedule on Hong Kong (as predicted). Without the threat of EU sanctions, the US sanctions become less effective and the dial moves away from US dominance to the multi-polar world China wants before they sweep Europe aside. 



Nov 2016 - NES outsells PS1 (JP)

Don't Play Stationary 4 ever. Switch!

Around the Network
Bofferbrauer2 said:
JRPGfan said:

10,000+ be being kept in slave-like conditions in factories in Leicester:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSHyRMpKaBs


"Lester isnt the only city where this is happending, a report based on police record, has found that britain has atleast 100,000 slaves"


"Everybody knew" about Leicester sweatshops before they were uncovered - Leicester MP:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sD8vSibGUw



Wow.... UK.... 3£ pr hour workers, basically forced to work or starve.... in sweat shops, as modern day slaves.
Also the cash their given (in hand) is laundred from drug trade...

Apparently "everyone" in Leicester new about it, and just ignored it.
Hell one of these sweatshops is right next to a police station, the salves walk past it atleast twice a day.


This is why the EU wanted equal rights & worker protections, as a agreement.
They dont want the UK to become some slave worker state, that undermines the production in EU that uses fair wages and treats their workers better.

Why wouldn't the UK sign a bill stateing they are okay with treating theirs as well as the EU does?
Unless the plan is in future they wont?

100000 of such sweatshop slaves in the UK???

That's just disgusting!

Nothing was said because making complaints about anything that involves non-white people is automatically racist or comes from a place of privilege.

Critical race theory and queer theory are the new golden calves that not only can't be criticised but anything that might lead to their criticism has to be shut down too.



Nov 2016 - NES outsells PS1 (JP)

Don't Play Stationary 4 ever. Switch!

Pyro as Bill said:
EnricoPallazzo said:

I live in UK so I know very well what is going on. I dont think brexit was a good idea. Its funny how people infer so many thing about you opinion even when you do not provide one. We had predictions for pre brexit and post brexit. The pre brexit predictions were mostly wrong and vastly exagerated. The predictions for post brexit today are already much less exagerated than 4 years ago and a lot of them wont hapeen at all.

You can do whatever you want with numbers and predictions and studies from think tanks, think about an outcome and you can find a math model for it.

And if it doesnt happen just say later it was an estimation. What I saw from traditional media here was shameful. But I guess that should not be a surprise.

Your profile says Italian. I assume you've been treated OK since the vote?

We were supposed to have holocausted you guys and the Polish because of how racist us and Boris are. You should have been arrested and deported at least.

I only became a hard Brexiteer when the other side got carried away with the lies. It became ridiculous. Literal apocalypse. At that point I didn't give a fuck. The whole establishment lined up to parrot the apocalypse line and I stopped listening to any Remain arguments. I know the downsides and possible upsides but when you're told you're doomed and you can't survive without some Commission in Brussels some people would rather die trying. I'm a free trader but CV has made me more protectionist. Silly really given that China-reliant supply chains quickly sorted themselves out after some initial madness.

I want a closer Europe but don't believe the EU allows the nations to play to their strengths. I'm in favour of Scottish independence too. The irony is it's England being held back by Scotland (and Wales and Northern Ireland). Scotland's potential fishing industry is worth way more (to the Gov) than the oil is especially when it's being sold at negative $30. When I say 'Europe (exUK) hasn't done anything of value recently', what I'm really saying is the US has been carrying Europe since pre-WW2.

I think most of the West has fell for the same debt trick that brings all empires/nations down eventually. I'm disappointed that all it took was greed, ambition for status and political expediency instead of a national/continental war for survival/dominance and I'm well aware that the UK is royally fucked in a Chinese world compared to the rest of Europe. I think Brexit resulted in China moving ahead of schedule on Hong Kong (as predicted). Without the threat of EU sanctions, the US sanctions become less effective and the dial moves away from US dominance to the multi-polar world China wants before they sweep Europe aside. 

I'm a great example of filthy job stealing immigrant. Born and raised in Brazil, but since my father has italian citizenship (he is also born in brazil but got it later) I was able to get my Italian citizenship which then gave me the right to live and work in UK. Do I agree with that? No way that's ridiculous, I dont even speak Italian and will never lived there. But since my mid 20's I had the dream of living in UK (sounds weird but its a long story).

So even after brexit me and my wife decided to keep with our plans and move to UK in 2017. Soooooooooooooo many people said I was crazy to leave my great job, my fully paid apartment behind and go to a place where I would be considered an immigrant, brexiteers would beat me up in the tube, and UK would see the worst recession in it's history. I knew it was just not true and a huge exaggeration.

I couldnt be happier and I wish I came here 10 years earlier (Im 39 now), me and my wife found jobs pretty quickly and I have the same position I used to have in Brazil in working for a British company. The british treat me really well and to be honest, not only at work but also in the neighborhood for some reason I get along better with the british than with EU/Asian people. I got really impressed on how chatty the british can be especially older people. Speak the fucking language, respect the local culture instead of trying impose yours, understand you are an immigrant so certain things will be more difficult and you should be alright. Fuck even the weather is not that bad since I live in east anglia.

Been here for 3 years, in two more will get permanent settled status and later citizenship. Couldnt be hapier. And Boris can be many things, but not a homophobe and a racist.



Pyro as Bill said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

100000 of such sweatshop slaves in the UK???

That's just disgusting!

Nothing was said because making complaints about anything that involves non-white people is automatically racist or comes from a place of privilege.

Critical race theory and queer theory are the new golden calves that not only can't be criticised but anything that might lead to their criticism has to be shut down too.

This is so true. Just learned one year ago about the grooming gangs in Rochdale and other places and how the police knew about it for decades. But decided to not do anything because they were afraid of the backlash. So many girls were raped, it's absolutely crazy that thing happened in a developed country.



JRPGfan said:
EnricoPallazzo said:

No planes will be able to land in britain, neither fly from, people will starve in the streets as no food will be able to arrive in the island. Hospitals will get rioted by people looking for medicines. All companies will leave britain. Scotland will get their independance and Ireland will be reunited. Churchill statue will be teared down finally. A reverse Dunkirk will happen with people fleeing for EU, which of course will shut its borders leaving the brits to die at the beach suffering with the outbreak of gonorrhea as they didnt have medication to treat it. 

At the very end, EU will use it as an example for any country trying to leave the union, while it proceeds with it's plans to add more countries to the union and finally implementing fiscal union. It will be clear that it will be impossible for any country to leave, ever.

A joke reply.
But its a very real situation.... and I ment it as a real question.

What happends if the UK leaves the EU, and cannot even get WTO membership?
How much power does China and USA have over the WTO? and if their against the UK just joining because it used to have membership through being apart of the EU (which it isnt now) and will have to reapply to get membership (which it might not get, due to not haveing border controll).

What happends?

What happends to a UK that cannot get WTO membership as soon as it crashes out of the EU (jan 1st 2021).

edit:

This is from jan 2019:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/27/uk-cannot-simply-trade-on-wto-terms-after-no-deal-brexit-say-experts

"The UK will be unable to have frictionless, tariff-free trade under World Trade Organization rules for up to seven years in the event of a no-deal Brexit, according to two leading European Union law specialists.

The ensuing chaos could double food prices and plunge Britain into a recession that could last up to 30 years, claim the lawyers who acted for Gina Miller in the historic case that forced the government to seek parliament’s approval to leave the EU.

It has been claimed that the UK could simply move to WTO terms if there is no deal with the EU. But Anneli Howard, a specialist in EU and competition law at Monckton Chambers and a member of the bar’s Brexit working group, believes this isn’t true.

“No deal means leaving with nothing,” she said. “The anticipated recession will be worse than the 1930s, let alone 2008. It is impossible to say how long it would go on for. Some economists say 10 years, others say the effects could be felt for 20 or even 30 years: even ardent Brexiters agree it could be decades.”

There are two apparently insurmountable hurdles to the UK trading on current WTO tariffs in the event of Britain crashing out in March, said Howard.Firstly, the UK must produce its own schedule covering both services and each of the 5,000-plus product lines covered in the WTO agreement and get it agreed by all the 163 WTO states.

A number of states have already raised objections to the UK’s draft schedule: 20 over goods and three over services.

To make it more complicated, there are no “default terms” Britain can crash out on, Howard said, while at the same time, the UK has been blocked by WTO members from simply relying on the EU’s “schedule” – its existing tariffs and tariff-free trade quotas.

The second hurdle is the sheer volume of domestic legislation that would need to be passed before being able to trade under WTO rules: there are nine statutes and 600 statutory instruments that would need to be adopted.

The government cannot simply cut and paste the 120,000 EU statutes into UK law and then make changes to them gradually, Howard said. “The UK will need to set up new enforcement bodies and transfer new powers to regulators to create our own domestic regimes,” she said.

“Basic maths shows that we will run out of time but any gap in our system will create uncertainty or conflict,” said Howard. “Some of these regimes carry penalties such as fines – even criminal offences in some sectors.”

“Negotiating and ratifying the international free trade deals with the rest of the world alone could take over seven years,” she said.

“A no-deal Brexit could double prices for some products like meat and dairy. There is also a greater risk of trade disputes and sanctions, resulting in reduced market access for UK businesses.

“It’s not just about money,” she said. “We are dependent on imports for a lot of things that we don’t make any more or don’t make enough of, or simply cannot make as they are patented or subject to rules of origin – like lifesaving drugs, radioactive isotopes, chemicals (such as helium for MRI scans), medical equipment, chemicals, electricity, petrol, even milk. Shortages and delays could cause panic buying or even civil unrest.”

Howard dismissed ideas of a transition period enabling a “gradual transition” to WTO rules as “unicorns”. “The UK will have to start negotiating over 50 free trade agreements from scratch once we leave the EU. In the meantime we will have to pay tariffs.”"

Back in jan 2019, 23 nations didnt agree to UK just getting membership of WTO, due to concerns over goods&services.
Apparently these remain until today.

Its getting serious now right? what happends jan 1st?


UK will just have to accept it losses access to certain market items, even ones it might need?
Ontop of tariffs that could on certain items double their prices?

Great, sounds fun.

Said I was going to go back to it and forgot it, sorry.

Since you are a very strong supporter of stay let me just tell you what I think so you can, maybe, understand me better.

I do not think brexit was a good idea. For me it would be MUCH BETTER if stay had won, as I'm a latin american with EU citizenship living in Britain. So, yeah I'm one of the directly impacted by the brexit decision. I am also against simple majority people votes. A result of 52-48 should not be a definitive result and on those votes, in my opinion, a minimum threshold of 55% or even 60% should be used when making such decision. 52-48 just means the country is divided and probably if you had another note 6 months down the road there was a good chance the result would be inverted. The same goes for people's votes on independence and other decisions that can impact a country decades or even centuries down the road. I am also against the decision that made  (2 million?) british citizens living outside england to not be able to vote, although that was the rule and if I'm not wrong you also cant vote for normal elections. At the end of the day you left the country.

The best option would have been for the EU to tackle the problems and criticisms people have on EU, face the problem, discuss it with society. Instead what everybody did was just shame people who had a different opinion. A few problems:

- EU started as an economic bloc and with time became a political bloc. When people voted to join EU back in early 70's (if Im not wrong) it was to join an economic bloc which is absolutely amazing and definitely (almost) nobody would be against it. With time the integration just became more complex, it transformed into a political bloc with almost no power to each country population to make any change on it. Yes there is a parliament but even if, let's say, evil conservatives in england elected 100% of the british representatives in EU parliament, well there is nothing you can achieve, it's just a couple of votes. With time that leads to even grater insanities such as creating an EU army and fiscal union (which will need to happen to keep euro alive).

- Since british people have no say in EU decisions, or at least almost no say since it is just a couple of votes, that leads to creation of several rules and regulations and laws that well you just need to suck it up and accept it, like for example the fishing quotas or environmental regulations that the british people may not agree with and need to follow anyway.

- Inclusion of a lot of countries in the EU that not necessarily were properly prepared for it or that have a very different cultural and economical approach

- And last but not least the real reason for brexit but it cannot be mentioned by british people as they will be shamed, immigration. I dont wanna go on this subject but it definitely is a problem in britain especally with the huge mass immigration that happened in the country. While most left leaning people dont care and actually support mass immigration, there is a lot of people that thinks there should be a limit to it and that despite the economical growth in GDP it brings, it also creates a lot of cultural problems and a strain in infrastructure. Immigration wasnt a huge issue in Britain during the 80's and 90's but once you start to have 500k people arriving per year and even reaching 700k in one year, well a lot of people thinks the problem must be discussed. And since the problem cannot be discussed the only place where you can safely give your opinion besides the pub or the dinner table, will be the ballot box.

- Then you have the elections and the campaign with SO MANY LIES from both sides, the shaming of everybody that did not agree with the Guardian, the ridculous approach on BBC and iTV of always bringing to the discussion from the conservative side a very stupid person to give the impression the conservatives are ignorant and racist, and all the projections and predictions about the economy that just didnt make any sense at all, totally project fear. As if britan would not survive outside EU, like if britain could not be just a regular country like many other first world countries. Predictions that just didnt happen, and now stay supporters are just creating more updated predictions that really cannot be trusted at all. And in the end the left always defend that economic growth should not be the end game of all decision but that is exactly what the left did with brexit. And it didnt happen, why should why believe it will happen this time. How can I trust the predictions, the people that makes the predictions, how do I know if they are considering everything necessary in the calculations, considering not only risks but also opportunities? Once you loose trust it is really difficult to get it back.

- After the voting, the british had ALL THE CHANCES to stay in EU in an unofficial way through Theresa May deal. She could not get the votes as the tories were tore in two, but labour could have accepted it. They could have voted with May. The deal was AMAZING for those who voted to stay. All Karl Marx Corbyn wanted was power and another election. Time and time again they could have helped and put the interests of those who voted to stay in first place but no. In the end he got the election he wanted and well, the results were not good. For him.

So considering everything, I understand and respect the will of the british people and maybe I would have done the same if I as british.

Just to finish, the press also tried to put fear that we Eu citizens would be mistreated, shuned, would be deported etc. Of course nothing happened and the process to get the right to stay was easier than paying a car parking bill.



EnricoPallazzo said:

- EU started as an economic bloc and with time became a political bloc. When people voted to join EU back in early 70's (if Im not wrong) it was to join an economic bloc which is absolutely amazing and definitely (almost) nobody would be against it. With time the integration just became more complex, it transformed into a political bloc with almost no power to each country population to make any change on it. Yes there is a parliament but even if, let's say, evil conservatives in england elected 100% of the british representatives in EU parliament, well there is nothing you can achieve, it's just a couple of votes. With time that leads to even grater insanities such as creating an EU army and fiscal union (which will need to happen to keep euro alive).

- Since british people have no say in EU decisions, or at least almost no say since it is just a couple of votes, that leads to creation of several rules and regulations and laws that well you just need to suck it up and accept it, like for example the fishing quotas or environmental regulations that the british people may not agree with and need to follow anyway.

A few issues with this part.

Firstly, the UK had quite a bit of say actually. It was more than "just a couple of votes". The number of seats in the EU parliament is based on population, IIRC the UK had the 3rd biggest population in the EU (behind Germany & France?) so they effectively had the 3rd most say. And much more so than a lot of the other members. Also, how is that different from any other democratic system? I mean, the residents of say Newcastle have "just a couple of votes" in UK politics. So the residents of the UK having "just a couple of votes" in EU politics is pretty similar, no? Although I'd argue that the EU gives people relatively more say than the UK since it's based on population and uses proportional representation rather than being based on borders drawn by the government in a winner takes all system.

Secondly, IIRC the European parliament doesn't actually have that much power. The European council (made up of the national heads of each member country, and since the UK people are the ones that elected the UK Prime Minister they certainly did have some say there) and the commission (which is appointed by the council, so again the UK had say there through their election of the Prime Minister) are more important.

I do agree that it grew too fast and added countries that probably weren't ready for it too quickly though. And that's largely what led to the immigration issues too.



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