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Forums - Politics Discussion - Starbucks Billionaire: You Can’t Have Healthcare Or College

Mr Puggsly said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

By that logic, the US shouldn't have such things as Police, Firefighters or even an Army. Oh, and no rights either, as they're not part of the "law of nature"

Well the government is supposed to take care of its citizens and providing all the services you mentioned is a relatively small part of the overall budget. For example, I was surprised to read we only spend like a $100 billion on the police collectively (I would have guessed much more), I imagine fire services are less. The military budget is huge, but still only like 16% of the budget.

Providing healthcare is a different though, its something many prefer to buy privately for various reasons. More importantly the US government already spends a fortune on it. The government spends over a trillion just on healthcare.

So that's the flaw in your argument, you aren't considering we already spend significantly more on health and social services. While services like police, firefighters, and a kick ass military is a lot cheaper to provide.

You didn't get the point it seems.

His point was that healthcare isn't a right, and the law of nature is everybody for himself. I just pointed out that those (among other things, like any legal system) would also contradict his way of thinking there and thus also wouldn't have a right to exist

Last edited by Bofferbrauer2 - on 19 August 2018

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Not only it is possible to have that in the US, but much more too. Heck, some kind of free college happens in my home country of Romania. You just have to score well enough in the admission exam. It is not ideal, but it is better than nothing.



                
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Rab said:

Fox News criticizes Denmark for their Socialist policies, Denmark replies   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSd8ellS52M 

They're taxed through the nose and they're a small, almost exclusively white country. None of that applies to the US.



Mr Puggsly said:
Machiavellian said:

You can thank your Republican party for that.  Since they did whatever they could to stop anything that could possible make Obama look good, even things they wanted they turned down.  At the end of the day, as president you get the glory or the blame but since this is a team sport, if one party does not want to play it makes everything else a compromise.

No... Obamacare was poorly designed from the start and rushed through congress.

Obama made a lot of changes to healthcare in this country, some I like and some just made it difficult for working people to afford healthcare.

In my opinion, if people feel "free" healthcare as the greatest and most important thing a country can provide for its people I can get behind that via some sort of subsidies for those who need them (for legal citizens preferably). But they have to focus on that alone and quit asking for a total welfare state which could never be achieved and kills their platform.

Actually it was not rushed through congress.  Unlike the abomination that was the republicans bill they tried to pass,  Obama actually tried to get the ACA though bipartisan manner by bring in a more conservative approach to the plan which or course was structured on Mitt Romney's plan.  The reason no Republican voted for Obamacare was not that the plan was unsound it was because anything that made Obama look good was an absolute no no, especially since they wanted to make him a one term president and stated so.  There is evidence back during that time that showed that Republicans were on a plan to oppose anything Obama supported all the while trying to act as if they cared to make him look bad. 

thought this is an opinion piece, it pretty much describe why the Republicans couldn't actually find a better plan then the ACA because the ACA was their plan maybe with a few wrinkles but those parts could have been ironed out if they actually wanted to make a better plan then scrape anything with the word Obama in it.

https://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/fess-up-gop-obamacare-is-bipartisan/



I hope he runs and steals votes from Biden in the primary.



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Rab said:
Mr Puggsly said:

I'm pretty familiar with the people on Fox News and I have no idea who that is.

I think the average conservative would point out that Denmark has a tiny population and an incredibly homogenous population.

Also, Denmark is one of the highest taxed countries in the world. Free stuff is a popular idea in the US but those taxes would be incredibly unpopular with the average working person.

That's weird, Trish Regan has been with Fox News and Fox Business Network as an anchor since 2015, before that CBS, CNBC and Bloomberg 

Yeah arguing a small and homogeneous population as an excuse is a bit like pointing to Venezuela every time Socialism is discussed, then the conservatives on both sides of politics wash their hands and happily think "job done" rebutting those pesky examples of progressive societies and move back to their comfort zone of supporting the poorly implemented status quo of the current system  

I don't think anything will change until we stop making excuses and look at best practices around the World in a evidence based scientific way 

I'm suggesting a massive country like the US is different than a tiny country like Denmark. Not just in population, but the size of the country.

If the 50 states became 50 countries, we'd see massive changes on how those states are run due to differing ideologies in certain regions. Its not an excuse, its an obvious truth. Some of these new countries would shift to a welfare state with varying degrees of success. Many people would also move to the less the taxed countries to avoid massive taxing like Denmark. Much like Europe, they wouldn't all share the same ideas on taxing, immigration, etc.

First and foremost, the US needs to get better at spending and simply being more efficient with spending. If you want to shift into a welfare state, that's kind of important.



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Machiavellian said:
Mr Puggsly said:

No... Obamacare was poorly designed from the start and rushed through congress.

Obama made a lot of changes to healthcare in this country, some I like and some just made it difficult for working people to afford healthcare.

In my opinion, if people feel "free" healthcare as the greatest and most important thing a country can provide for its people I can get behind that via some sort of subsidies for those who need them (for legal citizens preferably). But they have to focus on that alone and quit asking for a total welfare state which could never be achieved and kills their platform.

Actually it was not rushed through congress.  Unlike the abomination that was the republicans bill they tried to pass,  Obama actually tried to get the ACA though bipartisan manner by bring in a more conservative approach to the plan which or course was structured on Mitt Romney's plan.  The reason no Republican voted for Obamacare was not that the plan was unsound it was because anything that made Obama look good was an absolute no no, especially since they wanted to make him a one term president and stated so.  There is evidence back during that time that showed that Republicans were on a plan to oppose anything Obama supported all the while trying to act as if they cared to make him look bad. 

thought this is an opinion piece, it pretty much describe why the Republicans couldn't actually find a better plan then the ACA because the ACA was their plan maybe with a few wrinkles but those parts could have been ironed out if they actually wanted to make a better plan then scrape anything with the word Obama in it.

https://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/fess-up-gop-obamacare-is-bipartisan/

Republicans didn't just oppose Obama because they wanted to make him look bad, they simply have different ideologies. Its like trying to get democrats to support anything Trump does, even stuff people actually want like getting tough on immigration and lower taxes.

I think American people primarily just want cheaper and easier access to healthcare plans. I'm more in the center about this. I do see Healthcare.gov as a good solution to help the minority in this country that don't quite have access to good healthcare for various reasons. It arguably needs better options though and perhaps the subsidies can be overly generous in country with many safety nets already.

Right now though democrats are leaning into the single payer idea more than fixing Obamacare. Obama felt like a moderate compared to where dems are going now.



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Mr Puggsly said:
Rab said:

That's weird, Trish Regan has been with Fox News and Fox Business Network as an anchor since 2015, before that CBS, CNBC and Bloomberg 

Yeah arguing a small and homogeneous population as an excuse is a bit like pointing to Venezuela every time Socialism is discussed, then the conservatives on both sides of politics wash their hands and happily think "job done" rebutting those pesky examples of progressive societies and move back to their comfort zone of supporting the poorly implemented status quo of the current system  

I don't think anything will change until we stop making excuses and look at best practices around the World in a evidence based scientific way 

I'm suggesting a massive country like the US is different than a tiny country like Denmark. Not just in population, but the size of the country.

If the 50 states became 50 countries, we'd see massive changes on how those states are run due to differing ideologies in certain regions. Its not an excuse, its an obvious truth. Some of these new countries would shift to a welfare state with varying degrees of success. Many people would also move to the less the taxed countries to avoid massive taxing like Denmark. Much like Europe, they wouldn't all share the same ideas on taxing, immigration, etc.

First and foremost, the US needs to get better at spending and simply being more efficient with spending. If you want to shift into a welfare state, that's kind of important.

Obvious truth? Jeez, what's up with all this cognitive bias BS, people are so imbedded in their fairy kingdom thinking 

With larger countries you have efficiencies of scale, but really anything can be managed at any scale, conservatives use the "size" excuse but have never actually shown any evidence, pretty much what that FOX Anchor did with her cognitive bias shining like a beacon

If you truly want to convince people of your argument, then stop with the excuses and and the same FOX one-liners

Last edited by Rab - on 21 August 2018

contestgamer said:
Rab said:

Fox News criticizes Denmark for their Socialist policies, Denmark replies   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSd8ellS52M 

They're taxed through the nose and they're a small, almost exclusively white country. None of that applies to the US.

You didn't watch the video, it was more about how much people will lie to support an argument, their insane level of cognitive bias on this issue, a lot of people do it, but this one was public and obvious, but a lot will take her rant as fact as it suits their core belief, which is incredibly sad of people to do that      



Mr Puggsly said:
Machiavellian said:

Actually it was not rushed through congress.  Unlike the abomination that was the republicans bill they tried to pass,  Obama actually tried to get the ACA though bipartisan manner by bring in a more conservative approach to the plan which or course was structured on Mitt Romney's plan.  The reason no Republican voted for Obamacare was not that the plan was unsound it was because anything that made Obama look good was an absolute no no, especially since they wanted to make him a one term president and stated so.  There is evidence back during that time that showed that Republicans were on a plan to oppose anything Obama supported all the while trying to act as if they cared to make him look bad. 

thought this is an opinion piece, it pretty much describe why the Republicans couldn't actually find a better plan then the ACA because the ACA was their plan maybe with a few wrinkles but those parts could have been ironed out if they actually wanted to make a better plan then scrape anything with the word Obama in it.

https://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/fess-up-gop-obamacare-is-bipartisan/

Republicans didn't just oppose Obama because they wanted to make him look bad, they simply have different ideologies. Its like trying to get democrats to support anything Trump does, even stuff people actually want like getting tough on immigration and lower taxes.

I think American people primarily just want cheaper and easier access to healthcare plans. I'm more in the center about this. I do see Healthcare.gov as a good solution to help the minority in this country that don't quite have access to good healthcare for various reasons. It arguably needs better options though and perhaps the subsidies can be overly generous in country with many safety nets already.

Right now though democrats are leaning into the single payer idea more than fixing Obamacare. Obama felt like a moderate compared to where dems are going now.

There is a difference between different ideologies and just plain stubborn denial.

https://www.politico.com/story/2010/10/the-gops-no-compromise-pledge-044311

Or you can watch this video on how Republicans whole stragety was to oppose Obama on everything even if it helped or supported things they wanted

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/the-republicans-plan-for-the-new-president/

Democrats never supported lower taxes and Obama administration was considered pretty tough when it comes to immigration.  I guess going the extra mile and taking children without any means to get them back to their parents wasn't tough enough but to each their own.

The American healthcare system is pretty broken and will remain so.  The cost will continue to go sky high and for all the people saying how great it is that you have the Cleveland or Mayo clinic, when a time comes when they need that insurance they believe will cover them for some expensive procedure, medication or medical expense and get turned down, is when they realize the US can have all the great tech and drugs in the world but doesn't mean anything if you cannot get access to it.  Having your savings nuked, pleading with your friends and neighbors to help never feels good and all the while more options are taken away because its too expensive to keep you alive.  No one think about these social services until you need it then it's a whole different story.

A single payer system will never happen in the US because big insurance companies will make sure as they always have to make it go away.  The discussion still needs to happen because it seems people really are way to concerned how much money big insurance companies make compared to how many lives can be saved.  I am not saying that Insurance companies should not make money but the cost of everything needs to be put in check.  If my doctor charges me 60 bucks to a simple procedure you can do at home for 5 bucks or less, that's where the bloat comes in.  Its that kind of bloat within the system I keep hearing people champion saying this is how it is.  With that kind of thinking there will never be any change in the US, because no one wants to put any effort.

Last edited by Machiavellian - on 20 August 2018