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Forums - Sales Discussion - UK: Octopath Traveler charting at #3 (#1 in terms of revenue), doubling sales of Bravely Default

Xxain said:
Mnementh said:

So you believe in some god-given order of genres that is ever unchanging. Because turn-based RPGs were popular at the time and the first developers decided to call their new gameplay in real time also RPG, you think it is all the same. Whatever.

Whichever genre a game is in or not in, you must accept that different gamers like different games. As real time and turn based is fundamentally different gameplay, it is obvious that some gamers prefer the one gameplay, others the other. The problem is you demand that fans of one gameplay have to support games of the other gameplay, because you put them for whatever reasons in the same genre. And I don't see it. Support games you like.

As turn-based fell under the radar a bit over the past years I can understand someone celebrating the success of Octopath Traveller, as it is proof that turn based games have their fanbase and can sell good, if the game in question has quality. Which is what people don't understand, they say some cheap turn-based games sell bad and conclude the genre is dead.

And to your last point: no, I deny that FFXV paid for Octopath. FF was so incredibly expensive, that it was a high risk. It did pay off, but it could've been different. But that all doesn't affect Octopath much. The development of Octopath was comparatively cheap, so lesser profit would've been enough. Moreso, the genre is completely irrelevant if you ask what pays the bills. So I could say Tomb Raider and Just Cause paid for Octopath, because Square don't care. Most of all though, Bravely Default already proofed that turn based RPGs can sell. It was made by the same studio. So - if at all - it was Bravely Default which made Octopath Traveller possible. If Bravely Default had failed, Octopath wouldn't be here. And with these sales Octopath paid for itself.

So in the end I don't need to support a shooter, an aciton-adventure or whatever to get my turn-based RPGs. I support turn-based RPGs to get turn-based RPGs. That's why I bought Etrian Odyssey, Bravely Default, Shin Megami Tensei, Persona Q and Tokyo Mirage Sessions - because I wanted to play these games. And with that I signalled I want more games like these. Some different games don't influence that.

Ahhh, So this is what it feels like to talk to a brick wall.

I think it would be fair to assess that both of you are acting like brick wall at this point. You'll just re-state your arguments and go in an infinite circle.



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Mar1217 said:
Xxain said:

Ahhh, So this is what it feels like to talk to a brick wall.

I think it would be fair to assess that both of you are acting like brick wall at this point. You'll just re-state your arguments and go in an infinite circle.

I side stepped that bullet already.



I am sure that FF15 will make about 3x more revenue than Octopath Traveler when all is said and done. The issue is that FF15 cost more like 30 times the amount to make. FF15 is a big gamble just to break even while games like Octopath are easy money. It really is smart business for them to increase they number of projects like Octopath. I hope they do so going forward.



Xxain said:

Both you guys are wrong because you think that developers actually think in terms of action/turn based/tactics. They don't. An RPG  is just RPG to them. So, if let's pretend that SE had a successful RPG in all in styles and they wanted to boast about them in their Financial Report. They are not going to say we have the best selling turn based RPG this year! Our Action RPG section did well too! as did they tactics branch. Noooooo. They would just say our JRPGS have sold a total of blah blah and we have seen a increase in consumers for this genre. That is why Success in one type of RPG is a success for the whole genre. When gamers dont get what they want they start acting like pussies, they take their prefered version and then split it from the rest and pretend, and they it becomes its own genre... look Sonic as the best example of that behaviour.

SE's Action RPGS are doing than their classic stuff because its more in line with what's expected in the market. Period. Success help fund games like Octo and Mana SaGa and whatever other B class niche games SE has. If FFXV underperformed, or 14 underperformed, then Octo would not  be here. 


I don't think that developers think in those terms. I know they do. Developers are aware of sub-genres and distinct features/styles that can harm or increase sales. Look for example at the rise of features similar to Dark Souls in other games since the success and acclaim of that series. Or the creation of party fighting games after the rise of Super Smash Bros, which created that sub-genre of fighting games. Or the multitude of battle royale style games after all the attention PUBG got.

Or just talk to an actual developer. They pay attention to what is trending and what elements of a game appear to make it successful so they can suit their games to the market.

As to the second bolded section, that may or may not be true. One could argue that if FFXV underperformed that the company would be too damaged financially to take a risk on a new IP like Octopath. But on the other hand, Octopath is much lower budget and in the light of an underperforming big budget game like FFXV Square-Enix might choose to focus on multiple low budget titles to reduce the risk of a single big game flopping again.

On the third hand if you mean had FFXV flopped completely, Square-Enix could have gone bankrupt and we'd get no new games from them ever... well, that's possible, but you shouldn't support games you don't like in the hope that the company will produce something you do like sometime in the future.



psychicscubadiver said:
Xxain said:

Both you guys are wrong because you think that developers actually think in terms of action/turn based/tactics. They don't. An RPG  is just RPG to them. So, if let's pretend that SE had a successful RPG in all in styles and they wanted to boast about them in their Financial Report. They are not going to say we have the best selling turn based RPG this year! Our Action RPG section did well too! as did they tactics branch. Noooooo. They would just say our JRPGS have sold a total of blah blah and we have seen a increase in consumers for this genre. That is why Success in one type of RPG is a success for the whole genre. When gamers dont get what they want they start acting like pussies, they take their prefered version and then split it from the rest and pretend, and they it becomes its own genre... look Sonic as the best example of that behaviour.

SE's Action RPGS are doing than their classic stuff because its more in line with what's expected in the market. Period. Success help fund games like Octo and Mana SaGa and whatever other B class niche games SE has. If FFXV underperformed, or 14 underperformed, then Octo would not  be here. 


I don't think that developers think in those terms. I know they do. Developers are aware of sub-genres and distinct features/styles that can harm or increase sales. Look for example at the rise of features similar to Dark Souls in other games since the success and acclaim of that series. Or the creation of party fighting games after the rise of Super Smash Bros, which created that sub-genre of fighting games. Or the multitude of battle royale style games after all the attention PUBG got.

Or just talk to an actual developer. They pay attention to what is trending and what elements of a game appear to make it successful so they can suit their games to the market.

As to the second bolded section, that may or may not be true. One could argue that if FFXV underperformed that the company would be too damaged financially to take a risk on a new IP like Octopath. But on the other hand, Octopath is much lower budget and in the light of an underperforming big budget game like FFXV Square-Enix might choose to focus on multiple low budget titles to reduce the risk of a single big game flopping again.

On the third hand if you mean had FFXV flopped completely, Square-Enix could have gone bankrupt and we'd get no new games from them ever... well, that's possible, but you shouldn't support games you don't like in the hope that the company will produce something you do like sometime in the future.

You are not being to asked support something that you do not like. I don't know why that keeps popping up in this discussion. You are being asked to understand the importance of something that you do not like. Game profits are not trapped in some self contained box; Action RPG profits do not only go more Action RPG's, and classic RPG profits do not only to more classic RPG's (another in a long list of fan misconceptions) funds from games like FFXV, Nier, and KH3 fund multiple other games in different genres. You may like not FFXV/Nier/KH/Mana/Type 0.....fine......but know that their success paves way for more games like Octo. That is the idea here. 



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Xxain said:

You are not being to asked support something that you do not like. I don't know why that keeps popping up in this discussion. You are being asked to understand the importance of something that you do not like. Game profits are not trapped in some self contained box; Action RPG profits do not only go more Action RPG's, and classic RPG profits do not only to more classic RPG's (another in a long list of fan misconceptions) funds from games like FFXV, Nier, and KH3 fund multiple other games in different genres. You may like not FFXV/Nier/KH/Mana/Type 0.....fine......but know that their success paves way for more games like Octo. That is the idea here. 

Oh, I agree with you that profit flows through a company and sales of one game can indirectly affect another game.

But companies focus on games that are successful. If FFXV is successful they will make more games similar to FFXV. Its success does not guarantee more like Octopath. Octopath's success will determine whether or not more games like it will be made. If Octopath makes a good return on investment, they will make more of it, regardless of how other RPGs are faring.

I am curious about your assertion that you aren't asking anyone to support games they don't like. What did you mean by the following?

"Instead of Bitching about JRPG's being turn based/action, cinematic/not cinematic, gamers who enjoy the genre should be rooting for the genre in in its whole. Mindsets like Killieryoshis, does not nothing positive for the genere."



psychicscubadiver said:
Xxain said:

You are not being to asked support something that you do not like. I don't know why that keeps popping up in this discussion. You are being asked to understand the importance of something that you do not like. Game profits are not trapped in some self contained box; Action RPG profits do not only go more Action RPG's, and classic RPG profits do not only to more classic RPG's (another in a long list of fan misconceptions) funds from games like FFXV, Nier, and KH3 fund multiple other games in different genres. You may like not FFXV/Nier/KH/Mana/Type 0.....fine......but know that their success paves way for more games like Octo. That is the idea here. 

Oh, I agree with you that profit flows through a company and sales of one game can indirectly affect another game.

But companies focus on games that are successful. If FFXV is successful they will make more games similar to FFXV. Its success does not guarantee more like Octopath. Octopath's success will determine whether or not more games like it will be made. If Octopath makes a good return on investment, they will make more of it, regardless of how other RPGs are faring.

I am curious about your assertion that you aren't asking anyone to support games they don't like. What did you mean by the following?

"Instead of Bitching about JRPG's being turn based/action, cinematic/not cinematic, gamers who enjoy the genre should be rooting for the genre in in its whole. Mindsets like Killieryoshis, does not nothing positive for the genere."

Simple. It's a abridged version to what I explained above.

Here is a personal abridged example. I like PlayStation. I could care less about SONY's first party IP"s, but I understand the importance of them in growing the PlayStation brand. They bring in more consumers. More consumers mean a increase in brand/install base. That leads to more developers who who commit to PlayStation development. That leads to more games that I will like. I get more games that I like buy rooting for games that I don't like. That is what I mean by not being in a self contained box. 

Bolded: Correct, but we have to get to those first installments first. At this point Octo is looking to be an success and from this point on, future installments will decide how it develops as a brand. To get to the first Octo SE needed to have the confidence to do it. That confidence comes from knowing that their bread and butter brands will continue to bring in the money to develop and cover for experiments that may not pay off.



Xxain said:

Simple. It's a abridged version to what I explained above.

Here is a personal abridged example. I like PlayStation. I could care less about SONY's first party IP"s, but I understand the importance of them in growing the PlayStation brand. They bring in more consumers. More consumers mean a increase in brand/install base. That leads to more developers who who commit to PlayStation development. That leads to more games that I will like. I get more games that I like buy rooting for games that I don't like. That is what I mean by not being in a self contained box. 

Bolded: Correct, but we have to get to those first installments first. At this point Octo is looking to be an success and from this point on, future installments will decide how it develops as a brand. To get to the first Octo SE needed to have the confidence to do it. That confidence comes from knowing that their bread and butter brands will continue to bring in the money to develop and cover for experiments that may not pay off.

I understand what you're saying now, but I can't agree with it. When a company does something I don't like, I'll speak up. Discussing what I do and don't like is healthy criticism for the company so they know what sort of games I am likely to support.

I'm a Nintendo guy, mostly, and I do like it when some games sell well even if I'm not personally a fan. I don't play Animal Crossing, but I understand that it's a series that has many fans and its an important part of Nintendo's portfolio. But if a game in a genre I like contains elements I don't like, for example the new Paper Mario games, I will not publicly cheer for it. I criticize the elements I dislike in the hopes that Nintendo will do better. 

killeryoshis and others are expressing their preference within the genre and shouldn't be expected to cheer for games that contain elements they do not like.



Xxain said:
psychicscubadiver said:

Oh, I agree with you that profit flows through a company and sales of one game can indirectly affect another game.

But companies focus on games that are successful. If FFXV is successful they will make more games similar to FFXV. Its success does not guarantee more like Octopath. Octopath's success will determine whether or not more games like it will be made. If Octopath makes a good return on investment, they will make more of it, regardless of how other RPGs are faring.

I am curious about your assertion that you aren't asking anyone to support games they don't like. What did you mean by the following?

"Instead of Bitching about JRPG's being turn based/action, cinematic/not cinematic, gamers who enjoy the genre should be rooting for the genre in in its whole. Mindsets like Killieryoshis, does not nothing positive for the genere."

Simple. It's a abridged version to what I explained above.

Here is a personal abridged example. I like PlayStation. I could care less about SONY's first party IP"s, but I understand the importance of them in growing the PlayStation brand. They bring in more consumers. More consumers mean a increase in brand/install base. That leads to more developers who who commit to PlayStation development. That leads to more games that I will like. I get more games that I like buy rooting for games that I don't like. That is what I mean by not being in a self contained box. 

Bolded: Correct, but we have to get to those first installments first. At this point Octo is looking to be an success and from this point on, future installments will decide how it develops as a brand. To get to the first Octo SE needed to have the confidence to do it. That confidence comes from knowing that their bread and butter brands will continue to bring in the money to develop and cover for experiments that may not pay off.

Yeah, just like the important of Star Ocean 5 - a masterpiece, right?



AngryLittleAlchemist said:
What are the first week sales of BD in the U.K. according to VGC? I still can't figure out how to bring up the old week by week chart again.

By the way, I thought it was cleared up that Octopath isn't made by the Bravely team?

Bravely Default is by Silicon Studio and Octopath is by Acquire.