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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Would you save Ellie?

 

Ellie or vaccine?

Ellie 39 41.05%
 
Vaccine 56 58.95%
 
Total:95
Ultr on 01 July 2018
CrazyGamer2017 said:
Ultr said:

You are as hypocritical as it gets. You are even stating that you are inactive. One time you will realise that your inaction also kills.

If my daughter would die of hunger in africa I would immediately fly out and save her.
Right now somebody elses daughter is dying of hunger in africa. Am I flying out no? so whats your point?
Where is your moral compas right now?
I dont think you understand what you are talking about.

I'm honest I say things as they are. Neither YOU NOR ME are flying to Africa to save kids so we are equal on this.

Our difference is NOT in flying far off to save someone but saving a child that is RIGHT IN FRONT OF US. I would not SELL ELLIE to the Fireflies EVEN if she's not my daughter. You'd SELL her BECAUSE she is not your daughter. That is a huge difference and the horrible thing here is that you don't seem to realize it, you don' see it, you try to justify that by putting the "we don't fly to Africa to save kids" argument. It's an interesting one and we can discuss it in a thread that goes with THAT topic but the fact you try to use that argument to justify selling out a kid only because that kid is NOT your daughter shows how broken your moral compass is.

And AGAIN you're not even the worst: At least if she's your daughter you'd try to save her.

There are more arguments like that. And the problem here is only that you seem to think that there is a right choice on how people should act.

If by saving Ellie my daughter would die...what should I do then by your compass?



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CrazyGamer2017 on 01 July 2018
haxxiy said:

It took 118 posts for Goldwin's law to come into effect. On average, that translates to there was about a 0.585% chance of a Hitler mention in any given post this thread, assuming we are talking about sure convergence of random variables... I think? I haven't studied any maths like that for many years.

You always need a point of comparison to see how something scales up to it.

I have heard about Goldwin's law but I don't understand the relevance of it? Not saying you don't have a point, I'm just saying I don't get why it keeps coming back every time Hitler is mentioned?

Hitler being the epitome of evil it seems natural to me that when people (like some in this thread) admit that some people have no value to them and their deaths is not important to them especially if murdering them can save their own skin or a number of people that is superior to the amount of murdered people automatically justifies murder and human sacrifice, we are then in "Hitler" levels of evil.

For whatever crazy reason Hitler was convinced that Jews are some kind of "pollutant" that makes the human race flawed and without purity so from that evil and misguided point the mathematical equation that killing 6 million Jews to save 50 million Germans is correct, MATHEMATICALLY speaking of course cause humanely speaking it is PURE EVIL.

This "mathematical" correctness is showing up its ugly head in this thread so hello Goldwin and your law, take a seat and have a drink cause with everything horrible that happens in the world, from simple discussions in forums revealing dark minds to actual murders, war, famine and everything in between happening in the world, you Mr Goldwin are not going anywhere anytime soon.



CrazyGamer2017 on 01 July 2018
Ultr said:

There are more arguments like that. And the problem here is only that you seem to think that there is a right choice on how people should act.

If by saving Ellie my daughter would die...what should I do then by your compass?

Ok so we have established that you'd have Ellie murdered to save mankind in general. You'd only save her if she was your daughter so let's move on from there.

Now you are asking a new question. I don't mind answering that new question and any other new questions involving a more complex moral situation but to be clear, bringing in new complexities (what if killing her saves my daughter or what if killing her puts and end to war etc...) will not change the original issue, that it's wrong to murder a healthy child to save other people.

Now what if by saving Ellie your daughter would die? It would still be murder and killing this healthy child to save yours that is infected is wrong... BUT I would add a caveat to this: As a father, nobody can morally speaking, blame you. You'd want to save your daughter and that is a normal reaction.

This would be a horrible thing and I really hope NOBODY ever find themselves in such a situation and I don't think there is a perfect answer to that but here is what would happen should I be present: I'd do everything I can to STOP you from killing this healthy child cause again murdering a healthy child is wrong. Either I succeed and your daughter maybe dies and that child lives or you succeed and that healthy child dies and your daughter maybe lives.

I simply could not blame you, I'd be disgusted if you murdered this kid to save yours but I could not blame you, I'd do everything to stop you though. Tough question you ask there and that's the best answer I can provide I guess.



Aeolus451 on 01 July 2018
CrazyGamer2017 said:
Aeolus451 said:

Ellie is not a child and she's not a daughter to the MC. Even if everyone accepts that she's a child, she's killed plenty of people so she's not innocent by any measurement. Saving her is the selfish choice in that scenario. Joel chose one girl over a potential reversal of humankind's likely extinction because of his bond with her and not getting past losing his daughter. Joel possibly sacrificed everyone for her. Not because she was a young teenager/kid or a woman but because he cared for her and didn't want to lose her.

Evil is not a synonym for something you don't like. It's inherently selfishness at extreme levels. Basically, the more harm you cause or harm you're willing to cause to others in pursuit of your interests, the more evil you are. There's alot of greyness involved. Morality is not black or white.  Killing a kid in every single possible situation is not evil. Saving a kid no matter what is not absolutely a good or righteous act no matter what. There's alot of grey. I do understand the other side of this and I don't see anyone as evil.

I think that you really agree with the vaccine people's morality and you're calling everyone evil to muddy your own misgivings about choosing Ellie over humanity.

You see all those horrible people in movies like Mad Max or games like The Last of Us or TV shows like The Walking Dead. All those groups of people that impose a reign of terror and decide to kill people that don't follow their rules or pillage and murder villagers as they travel across the land. I really think that inside their heads THIS kind of reasoning is what helps them justify their evil deeds:

"No one's innocent, none of those people we murder rape and pillage are our sons or daughters so what we do is not wrong, actually we are great guys, we bring back law and order..."

Selfishness at extreme levels is not necessarily evil. I own my home, I got my money to buy things for me ONLY, I do what it takes to survive every day (find a job, don't have kids, don't spend money stupidly etc...) I don't give money to hobos or other people, I don't owe them anything. I don't give blood to the Red cross and so on...  In other words you could say I'm selfish to extreme levels but you CANNOT say I'm evil. I don't kill anyone (even to save someone else) I don't steal from anyone, I don't beat up a girlfriend,  will not frame someone of a crime to benefit me etc... An evil person could be selfish yes but a selfish person is not necessarily evil.

And no I definitely do not agree with the vaccine people. You DO NOT KILL a child for ANY reason. If you think you can kill her YOU are both evil and selfish and you have a very misguided morality. In this case your misguided morality is to think that you can quantify the value of human life, that you can decide that this one must die and this one must live. It's what the worst people in history has tried to do, like Hitler when he decided that Jews must die cause Germans must thrive and there is no room on earth for Jews as the earth belongs to the so called "superior" race and just like you he went for numbers: 6 million Jews dead so that 40 or 50 million Germans can go on living in what he called their "vital space".

I really hope you don't believe your own words cause if you do, holy shit, in an apocalypse type of event you'd be one of the worst and most dangerous people.

Are you purposefully mischaracterizing their actions or did you just not watch any of it? They never raped a damned person.... Most of their actions were in self defense. 

I think that you're being dishonest right off the bat to suit your opinion. I also think that you don't understand what "extreme selfishness" means since you used earning money for yourself as an example good extreme selfishness.  Killing someone you care about to save humanity is not selfish by any metric. The nazis wanted to take over the world and rule over it under their idealogy. It doesn't have anything to do with this. 

You must really hate abortion then.

It's extremely easy to quantify the value of human life. People do it everyday. Objectively, it's 2 > 1. To each person, their life is greater than everyone except for offspring and maybe their significant other. By extension, whatever group of people (country, religion, race, etc) they are a part of is greater than all other groups because what affects the group will likely affect them. Generally, criminal activity, immoral acts, being involved in a war/conflict will decrease the value of a person's life or a person in general. 

 An example of this is you calling people evil and using that to rationalize your less than respectful treatment of others in this thread.



Barozi on 01 July 2018
CrazyGamer2017 said:

You see all those horrible people in movies like Mad Max or games like The Last of Us or TV shows like The Walking Dead. All those groups of people that impose a reign of terror and decide to kill people that don't follow their rules or pillage and murder villagers as they travel across the land. I really think that inside their heads THIS kind of reasoning is what helps them justify their evil deeds:

"No one's innocent, none of those people we murder rape and pillage are our sons or daughters so what we do is not wrong, actually we are great guys, we bring back law and order..."

Selfishness at extreme levels is not necessarily evil. I own my home, I got my money to buy things for me ONLY, I do what it takes to survive every day (find a job, don't have kids, don't spend money stupidly etc...) I don't give money to hobos or other people, I don't owe them anything. I don't give blood to the Red cross and so on...  In other words you could say I'm selfish to extreme levels but you CANNOT say I'm evil. I don't kill anyone (even to save someone else) I don't steal from anyone, I don't beat up a girlfriend,  will not frame someone of a crime to benefit me etc... An evil person could be selfish yes but a selfish person is not necessarily evil.

And no I definitely do not agree with the vaccine people. You DO NOT KILL a child for ANY reason. If you think you can kill her YOU are both evil and selfish and you have a very misguided morality. In this case your misguided morality is to think that you can quantify the value of human life, that you can decide that this one must die and this one must live. It's what the worst people in history has tried to do, like Hitler when he decided that Jews must die cause Germans must thrive and there is no room on earth for Jews as the earth belongs to the so called "superior" race and just like you he went for numbers: 6 million Jews dead so that 40 or 50 million Germans can go on living in what he called their "vital space".

I really hope you don't believe your own words cause if you do, holy shit, in an apocalypse type of event you'd be one of the worst and most dangerous people.

So if there's a child holding an explosive device in a school and only you could save every pupil around him or her by shooting and thus probably killing said child, you wouldn't do it?
If not then good thing you're not a cop or a soldier. How would that be "evil"?



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CrazyGamer2017 on 01 July 2018
Aeolus451 said:

Are you purposefully mischaracterizing their actions or did you just not watch any of it? They never raped a damned person.... Most of their actions were in self defense. 

I think that you're being dishonest right off the bat to suit your opinion. I also think that you don't understand what "extreme selfishness" means since you used earning money for yourself as an example good extreme selfishness.  Killing someone you care about to save humanity is not selfish by any metric. The nazis wanted to take over the world and rule over it under their idealogy. It doesn't have anything to do with this. 

You must really hate abortion then.

It's extremely easy to quantify the value of human life. People do it everyday. Objectively, it's 2 > 1. To each person, their life is greater than everyone except for offspring and maybe their significant other. By extension, whatever group of people (country, religion, race, etc) they are a part of is greater than all other groups because what affects the group will likely affect them. Generally, criminal activity, immoral acts, being involved in a war/conflict will decrease the value of a person's life or a person in general. 

 An example of this is you calling people evil and using that to rationalize your less than respectful treatment of others in this thread.

Dude you're lost so far down your corrupted morality that you will never get my point and the importance of a life.

Luckily for you that vision of 2>1 does not really apply in real life. Our laws are far from perfect but even our laws as corrupted as they are would not dare go down such a dark path as does your mind. Which is lucky for you and me I guess... You are not at risk of being legally murdered cause 2 people out there may need an organ transplant and that murdering you and harvesting your organs would save 2 lives out there. As long as you are not in charge, we should be doing ok.



CrazyGamer2017 on 01 July 2018
Barozi said:

So if there's a child holding an explosive device in a school and only you could save every pupil around him or her by shooting and thus probably killing said child, you wouldn't do it?
If not then good thing you're not a cop or a soldier. How would that be "evil"?

Again someone with more crazy examples to justify the inherent evil morals expressed in this thread.

Ellie (or any kid like her) is not evil, she is healthy and murdering her to save others is plain wrong, your question is not changing this fact if that's what you are trying to go for.

Ellie is not holding an explosive threatening to blow up other kids and you must have fucked up morals to try to justify murdering a child to harvest her organs with an example of some imaginary little kid holding explosives and threatening other kids.

What do you expect me to say? Holy shit, you're right, some evil IMAGINARY kid holding up explosives to kill others is a piece of shit so let's KILL ELLIE, let's kill all the fucking kids out there, let's murder them and if anyone says ANYTHING or QUESTIONS us murdering kids, let's ask them the question: What if some kid holds up explosives and threatens to kill other kids? Cause that question TOTALLY justifies murdering a kid that is healthy and has NOTHING to do with the explosives kid of your example.

I am horrified by some people here... And then again I should not be. I mean if mankind was wise and civilized and peaceful, there would be no wars, no strong preying upon the weak, no super rich and super poor people, no starving children etc... You sick and evil guys are sadly... THE FUCKING NORM, the true average human being. Congratulations!

 

 

User moderated - Bristow9091

Last edited by Bristow9091 - on 01 July 2018

CrazyGamer2017 on 01 July 2018
m0ney said:

I am replaying The Last of Us and just got to the last stage - I would def choose to make a vaccine rather than save Ellie. What is one girl vs the whole human race?

Sure and now let's speak about the real world. How about you or me going out right now, spotting a hot girl and raping her then murdering her?

I mean no big deal cause what is one girl in comparison to the whole human race, right?

I know you'll reply that raping one girl will not save mankind so it would not be the same. True I would reply, but the fundamental notion that one human is nothing vs the entire human race still applies and if a single human has so little value that it can EASILY be sacrificed and murdered (rape her too, why not, she's going to be murdered, don't waste meat and enjoy yourself before killing her, right?) then why not enjoy yourself and rape and murder people you pick in the street? The earth will still be there tomorrow after you are done raping/murdering, mankind will still be there, the fucking economy and WallStreet will still be there, Reps and Dems will still be there, so NO REASON to withhold yourself, go out and have fun!

I'm no religious person but exceptionally I'll quote a famous line from a famous holy book: "Whoever saves ONE life, saves the universe entire"... But that must mean shit to the likes of you right? Cause your amazing logic is totally going to crush this quote. After all what is one life vs the UNIVERSE ENTIRE?



Aeolus451 on 01 July 2018
CrazyGamer2017 said:
Aeolus451 said:

Are you purposefully mischaracterizing their actions or did you just not watch any of it? They never raped a damned person.... Most of their actions were in self defense. 

I think that you're being dishonest right off the bat to suit your opinion. I also think that you don't understand what "extreme selfishness" means since you used earning money for yourself as an example good extreme selfishness.  Killing someone you care about to save humanity is not selfish by any metric. The nazis wanted to take over the world and rule over it under their idealogy. It doesn't have anything to do with this. 

You must really hate abortion then.

It's extremely easy to quantify the value of human life. People do it everyday. Objectively, it's 2 > 1. To each person, their life is greater than everyone except for offspring and maybe their significant other. By extension, whatever group of people (country, religion, race, etc) they are a part of is greater than all other groups because what affects the group will likely affect them. Generally, criminal activity, immoral acts, being involved in a war/conflict will decrease the value of a person's life or a person in general. 

 An example of this is you calling people evil and using that to rationalize your less than respectful treatment of others in this thread.

Dude you're lost so far down your corrupted morality that you will never get my point and the importance of a life.

Luckily for you that vision of 2>1 does not really apply in real life. Our laws are far from perfect but even our laws as corrupted as they are would not dare go down such a dark path as does your mind. Which is lucky for you and me I guess... You are not at risk of being legally murdered cause 2 people out there may need an organ transplant and that murdering you and harvesting your organs would save 2 lives out there. As long as you are not in charge, we should be doing ok.

My morality and logic is just fine.



m0ney on 01 July 2018
CrazyGamer2017 said:

if a single human has so little value that it can EASILY be sacrificed and murdered

Who said easily? It was anything but easy for the Fireflies leader to make that decision, but as I understand you didn't even play the game? Then IMO you shouldn't even be taking part in this discussion in the first place.



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