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Forums - Gaming Discussion - DF: In Theory: Could Sony produce a PS4 Switch-style console hybrid?

curl-6 said: 
Azuren said: 

Taking a current gen game and dialing it back to last gen doesn't mean it's running current gen.

Those games aren't "dialed back to last gen" though; they may run at a low resolution but their core visual feature set is still beyond anything PS3/360 ever produced technologically speaking.

Azuren said: 

The Switch is running games more closely akin to Sony and Microsoft's previous consoles rather than to their current consoles.



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Aeolus451 said:
sc94597 said:

This statement (as it is) is false. 

If you modified your statement with one word, it might be true. 

It is true. Where are the majority of 3rd party games? No Far Cry 5? Where are the games? Down graded ports of a handful of games don't really count for much.

Fact that Switch not receiving some games doesn't mean that those games can be ported to Switch or that Switch cant run them. 

 

Aeolus451 said: 
weraru_1 said: 

That doesn't make sense. Switch is selling just as well or slightly better as PS4 with launches aligned. PS4 gained momentum. Consoles never have their best years at launch. This is a bad comment.

You shouldn't be counting chickens before they hatch. We don't know what kind of legs the ns will have. It could turn out to ha ve better legs than the ps2 or it could fizzle out quicker than expected. Sony doesn't need to risk any resources on something that's still experimental and might not work for them (if sony tried it) when they could use those resources on ps4 games and ps5 dev/games.

What you wrote don't have anything with what he wrote, he just wrote that comment is bad and he wrote why comment is bad, and he is totally right.



Azuren said:
curl-6 said: 

Those games aren't "dialed back to last gen" though; they may run at a low resolution but their core visual feature set is still beyond anything PS3/360 ever produced technologically speaking.

Azuren said: 

The Switch is running games more closely akin to Sony and Microsoft's previous consoles rather than to their current consoles.

It's still not at the same level as last gen though; it's notably superior to PS3 and 360 even if it's also notably weaker than PS4/Xbone.



Bet with Liquidlaser: I say PS5 and Xbox Series will sell more than 56 million combined by the end of 2023.

potato_hamster said:

 

KBG29 said:

That is what I see looking off into the Road maps, and what technologies will be available by the end of 2019. Will Sony or Microsoft take a stab at it? Probably not, but I really hope they do. I think the market would go absolutely crazy at the idea of having Call of Duty, Battlefield, Grand Theft Auto, Assasin's Creed, Gran Turismo, Uncharted, The Last of Us, Halo, Gears, and Fozra/Horion all available on the go, with no compromise. But, that's just my thought's. At any rate, I look forward to what 7nm fabrication brings us, and where things go with Sony and Microsoft, whether it is Home, Mobile, both, or otherwise. It's all about gaming first hardware, and that is what I love.

  



Aside from you obvious lack of understanding of hardware that makes your speculation of what Sony/AMD/whoever can make with existing hardware at an affordable price point hilariously out of touch, Sony has already made handheld game consoles featuring most of the franchises you listed, and people didn't go "absolutely crazy" for it. They made those "compromises" because as it turns out, making a handheld necessitates making compromises. Do you think Nintendo released a $299 Switch that struggles to play PS4 ports and only gets 3 hours battery life out of demanding titles for funsies? Sorry, there's no way in 2018 or 2019 to make a handheld for under $300 that can play Uncharted 4 "without compromise". The technology isn't there, and you're going to have to deal with it.

I also think it's hilarious that you claim to love "gaming first hardware" but still berate Nintendo for not releasing a Switch that's capable of connecting with cell phone networks and make phone calls. Which is it?

I love gaming first hardware, and I want to see gaming first hardware devices expand their reach so they can be a more viable option for a wider range of consumers. Am I not allowed to want more from my gaming first hardware?

Looking at the games you listed, they where all spin offs. People have very little interest in spin-offs, there is very little interest in spin-offs in the main console space, let alone asking people to buy another device just for spin-offs. Having the ability to play the same game on your home PS4 and your Mobile PS4 would be a very different situation. 

 

As for hardware.

Look at the 20nm Tegra X1 and the 16nm Tegra X2 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tegra

 

Compare them with the 14nm Raven Ridge Mobile chips (anything with a U at the end)

https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/amd/cores/raven_ridge 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:AMD_Ryzen_Mobile

 

Now use a little foresight, and where do you land logically with a 7nm successor to Raven Ridge? Take into account that Performance Per Watt gains are a focus of AMD's Road Map.

https://www.overclock3d.net/news/cpu_mainboard/amd_announces_plans_to_release_navi_and_zen_2_on_7nm/1

 Then remember, that Sony and AMD can work to make specific modifications that make the chip more power efficient and more capable than the stock chip, for use specifically in a Mobile PlayStation device as they did with the PS4 APU compared to stock AMD APU's of the time. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AMD_accelerated_processing_unit_microprocessors

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:AMD_custom_APU

 

Looking at all of this, it looks pretty plausible that AMD will be capable of producing a chip on 7nm that is capable of surpassing the PS4 in CPU and GPU power at under 15 Watts. Raven Ridge is already capable of running circles around the PS4 CPU, and the advanced GPU tech, even at lower total flops is capable of outperforming PS4. The base 7nm Ryzen Mobile chips will only increase the power gap and reduce the power consumption. From there they can make modifications to support memory as needed, reduce power as needed, and increase performance as needed for a custom PlayStation Chip. 



Stop hate, let others live the life they were given. Everyone has their problems, and no one should have to feel ashamed for the way they were born. Be proud of who you are, encourage others to be proud of themselves. Learn, research, absorb everything around you. Nothing is meaningless, a purpose is placed on everything no matter how you perceive it. Discover how to love, and share that love with everything that you encounter. Help make existence a beautiful thing.

Kevyn B Grams
10/03/2010 

KBG29 on PSN&XBL

Azuren said:
I'd love to have a "PS4 Go" to go with my PS4 Pro.

But I won't be holding my breath.

I'm afraid DF said PS4 No



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KBG29 said:
potato_hamster said:

 

    

 

Aside from you obvious lack of understanding of hardware that makes your speculation of what Sony/AMD/whoever can make with existing hardware at an affordable price point hilariously out of touch, Sony has already made handheld game consoles featuring most of the franchises you listed, and people didn't go "absolutely crazy" for it. They made those "compromises" because as it turns out, making a handheld necessitates making compromises. Do you think Nintendo released a $299 Switch that struggles to play PS4 ports and only gets 3 hours battery life out of demanding titles for funsies? Sorry, there's no way in 2018 or 2019 to make a handheld for under $300 that can play Uncharted 4 "without compromise". The technology isn't there, and you're going to have to deal with it.

I also think it's hilarious that you claim to love "gaming first hardware" but still berate Nintendo for not releasing a Switch that's capable of connecting with cell phone networks and make phone calls. Which is it?

I love gaming first hardware, and I want to see gaming first hardware devices expand their reach so they can be a more viable option for a wider range of consumers. Am I not allowed to want more from my gaming first hardware?

Looking at the games you listed, they where all spin offs. People have very little interest in spin-offs, there is very little interest in spin-offs in the main console space, let alone asking people to buy another device just for spin-offs. Having the ability to play the same game on your home PS4 and your Mobile PS4 would be a very different situation. 

 

As for hardware.

Look at the 20nm Tegra X1 and the 16nm Tegra X2 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tegra

 

Compare them with the 14nm Raven Ridge Mobile chips (anything with a U at the end)

https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/amd/cores/raven_ridge 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:AMD_Ryzen_Mobile

 

Now use a little foresight, and where do you land logically with a 7nm successor to Raven Ridge? Take into account that Performance Per Watt gains are a focus of AMD's Road Map.

https://www.overclock3d.net/news/cpu_mainboard/amd_announces_plans_to_release_navi_and_zen_2_on_7nm/1

 Then remember, that Sony and AMD can work to make specific modifications that make the chip more power efficient and more capable than the stock chip, for use specifically in a Mobile PlayStation device as they did with the PS4 APU compared to stock AMD APU's of the time. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AMD_accelerated_processing_unit_microprocessors

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:AMD_custom_APU

 

Looking at all of this, it looks pretty plausible that AMD will be capable of producing a chip on 7nm that is capable of surpassing the PS4 in CPU and GPU power at under 15 Watts. Raven Ridge is already capable of running circles around the PS4 CPU, and the advanced GPU tech, even at lower total flops is capable of outperforming PS4. The base 7nm Ryzen Mobile chips will only increase the power gap and reduce the power consumption. From there they can make modifications to support memory as needed, reduce power as needed, and increase performance as needed for a custom PlayStation Chip. 

First, I love how my post was about how the technology isn't there and then in response, you go about talking about hypothetical chips that do not exist that supposedly proves it does.

"Gaming first hardware" is hardware that focuses on gaming first - like the Switch - you know, that handheld that annoys you because Nintendo decided to focus on gaming first and not cell-phone functionality. Wanting more from "gaming first" hardware is asking for it to not be "gaming first" hardware. The Switch would not be "Gaming First Hardware" if you could play YouTube, Netflix and make phone calls on your Switch before you could have voice chat during network play. Make sense?

You still don't get it about the hardware do you? I think this must be one of those cases where you don't know enough to know how much you don't know. I'm not quite sure why you think Sony can work with AMD and both increase the performance and decrease the power draw. Increasing performance increases power draw. You're acting like Sony can just take something like the 2300U, increase a little of this, decrease a little that, and blammo! PS4 APU with a 12W TDP, and about the same price as the PS4's current APU. Sorry, it's not that simple. Decreasing power draw decreases performance. You might be able to take a more... bleeding edge approach to the design, the that will almost undoubtedly decrease yields and blow up the cost of the chip. Working chips pay for dead ones. That's how it works.

This isn't rocket science. Yet you're advocating for a higher performance, lower TDP chip, presumably for the same price seeing as you think Sony can make this PS4 portable for less than $400 even accounting for the fact that any memory and storage solution would be undoubtedly higher than what's in the PS4 and the fact that it would have to have a 1080p screen and a battery. It doesn't add up.

Furthermore, where do you think I to supposed to logically land going from 14 nm to 7 nm? What are you basing that off of? If you're basing it on previous advancements, such as say going from 20 nm to 14 nm, is it still reasonable to apply here? Do we know enough about this new 7nm fabrication process to be able to predict what kind of TDP improvement we should get? Will that 7nm process be stable enough to produce cost-effective yields in the next year or so?  What kind of modifications (if any) can  AMD make to the design of the chip to make it power efficient than their current offeringgs? How much customization (if any) will AMD have to make to account for the modifications the PS4's APU has, and how will that affect TDP, power and yields?  You have to have a very good idea what the answer is to all of these questions before you can confidently say that this chip can be made in 2019 for the price you think it can be made for. And I'm not even getting into the current global supplier issues that is jacking up the prices of new electronics and computer hardware across the globe that might mean that no manufacturer is willing to make the chip for what they made similar chips before.

Remember, you're talking about hardware that currently does not exist, yet you're talking about it as confidently as you would be if  you have intimate knowledge of an actual design, seen the yields of the fabrication process, and have seen it working with your own eyes.

P.S.I'm just not going to bother touching how confident you are that these "spin off" games are far less appealing than their core counterparts. Just look at the history of Nintendo's portable game lineup and note the hundreds of millions sold.



No need. Honestly they should focus on improving VR and PS5 and nail that launch.



 

 

curl-6 said:
Azuren said:

It's still not at the same level as last gen though; it's notably superior to PS3 and 360 even if it's also notably weaker than PS4/Xbone.

And again; closer to Sony and Microsoft's last gen consoles.



Watch me stream games and hunt trophies on my Twitch channel!

Check out my Twitch Channel!:

www.twitch.tv/AzurenGames

jonathanalis said:
The thing that annoys me is talking that switch could receive a super dock, with extra memory and compute power.
No, it is technically impossible.

It really is. And I have already talked indepth prior on these forums on why it is technically impossible.
I did expect more from Digital Foundry especially when it comes to assertions such as these.

potato_hamster said:

First, I love how my post was about how the technology isn't there and then in response, you go about talking about hypothetical chips that do not exist that supposedly proves it does.

Consoles typically use semi-custom designs, Thus the "Hypothetical" chips generally don't exist until they hit the market anyway.
There is only one exception that comes to mind though... The Switch.

potato_hamster said:

Increasing performance increases power draw.

Not always. Back in the Dothan/Bonais days... Intel was rapidly increasing chip performance to save on power draw... As the mantra of "Hurry up and finish and go back to idle" was a key point in chip design philosophy... In short the faster the chip, the faster it can get the processing task done and the faster the chip can go to idle, switch to a lower power state and save on power.

potato_hamster said:

You're acting like Sony can just take something like the 2300U, increase a little of this, decrease a little that, and blammo! PS4 APU with a 12W TDP, and about the same price as the PS4's current APU. Sorry, it's not that simple. Decreasing power draw decreases performance. You might be able to take a more... bleeding edge approach to the design, the that will almost undoubtedly decrease yields and blow up the cost of the chip. Working chips pay for dead ones. That's how it works.

The 2300U is a baseline of what to expect with AMD's current technology on the current fabrication process with it's current chip designs.
Obviously a semi-custom design will be tweaked to meet various goals.

There would not for instance be a need to have the CPU's operate at such a high clock and thus voltage (Remember, voltage has a direct relationship with power consumption!)  as Zen is significantly more efficient than Jaguar. I mean significant.


potato_hamster said:

This isn't rocket science. Yet you're advocating for a higher performance, lower TDP chip, presumably for the same price seeing as you think Sony can make this PS4 portable for less than $400 even accounting for the fact that any memory and storage solution would be undoubtedly higher than what's in the PS4 and the fact that it would have to have a 1080p screen and a battery. It doesn't add up.

* It wouldn't have to have a 1080P screen. Super Sampling is a thing you know.

The Playstation 4 SoC is based on Graphics Core Next 1.0, which is slow, old, power hungry and inefficient.
Vega is leagues ahead of it in every scenario. (And probably more so once AMD sorts out it's Primitive Shaders and Draw Stream Binning Rasterizer bullshit.)


potato_hamster said:

Furthermore, where do you think I to supposed to logically land going from 14 nm to 7 nm? What are you basing that off of? If you're basing it on previous advancements, such as say going from 20 nm to 14 nm, is it still reasonable to apply here? Do we know enough about this new 7nm fabrication process to be able to predict what kind of TDP improvement we should get? Will that 7nm process be stable enough to produce cost-effective yields in the next year or so?

Early reports are placing the 7nm process at a 2.6x improvement over 14nm.

TSMC was pegging their 7nm process to be a 1.63x improvement over their 10nm process, which in turn had a 14nm BEOL.
TSMC's 16nm process had a 20nm BEOL.

You need to keep in mind that these aren't actually 7nm and 14nm fabrication processes though, they have been bastardized into advertising numbers to trick the less educated.

But the improvement from TSMC's 16nm to 7nm is bloody massive. Global Foundries, Samsung and so on are seeing similar improvements.
The jump to "7nm" is probably going to be one of the most significant fabrication improvements we have seen in a long time.

potato_hamster said:

What kind of modifications (if any) can  AMD make to the design of the chip to make it power efficient than their current offeringgs?

Is this hypothetical? Or do you want a list? I can provide a list.





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Pemalite said:
potato_hamster said:

First, I love how my post was about how the technology isn't there and then in response, you go about talking about hypothetical chips that do not exist that supposedly proves it does.

Consoles typically use semi-custom designs, Thus the "Hypothetical" chips generally don't exist until they hit the market anyway.
There is only one exception that comes to mind though... The Switch.


Sure, consoles use semi-custom designs. The key there being semi-custom, you know, meaning a customized version of something that actually exists. Except in this case it would be a semi-custom design of something that doesn't yet exist that people are assuming exists secretly, or will exist within the next 6-18 months or so, and be at a price point comparative to current APUs. Kev here is acting like there's a decent chance Sony already has this all nailed down and could be announcing it at E3.

Pemalite said:

potato_hamster said:

Increasing performance increases power draw.

Not always. Back in the Dothan/Bonais days... Intel was rapidly increasing chip performance to save on power draw... As the mantra of "Hurry up and finish and go back to idle" was a key point in chip design philosophy... In short the faster the chip, the faster it can get the processing task done and the faster the chip can go to idle, switch to a lower power state and save on power.


Well wonderful that you found an exception to a broadly established rule of thumb per se. Unless you're advocating that it would make any sense to design a PS4 mobile APU that is design to spend as much time idling as possible, please make your case, and if not, why bother bringing it up?

Pemalite said:

potato_hamster said:

You're acting like Sony can just take something like the 2300U, increase a little of this, decrease a little that, and blammo! PS4 APU with a 12W TDP, and about the same price as the PS4's current APU. Sorry, it's not that simple. Decreasing power draw decreases performance. You might be able to take a more... bleeding edge approach to the design, the that will almost undoubtedly decrease yields and blow up the cost of the chip. Working chips pay for dead ones. That's how it works.

The 2300U is a baseline of what to expect with AMD's current technology on the current fabrication process with it's current chip designs.
Obviously a semi-custom design will be tweaked to meet various goals.

There would not for instance be a need to have the CPU's operate at such a high clock and thus voltage (Remember, voltage has a direct relationship with power consumption!)  as Zen is significantly more efficient than Jaguar. I mean significant.


You keep talking like it's just arbitary to effectively emulate something closely resembling the PS4's APU on something like a 2300U, with the appropriate TDP and cost, do you have an examples of something similar being done using similar technologies, or is this just something that you think hypothetically should be easily manageable?

Pemalite said:

potato_hamster said:

This isn't rocket science. Yet you're advocating for a higher performance, lower TDP chip, presumably for the same price seeing as you think Sony can make this PS4 portable for less than $400 even accounting for the fact that any memory and storage solution would be undoubtedly higher than what's in the PS4 and the fact that it would have to have a 1080p screen and a battery. It doesn't add up.

* It wouldn't have to have a 1080P screen. Super Sampling is a thing you know.

The Playstation 4 SoC is based on Graphics Core Next 1.0, which is slow, old, power hungry and inefficient.
Vega is leagues ahead of it in every scenario. (And probably more so once AMD sorts out it's Primitive Shaders and Draw Stream Binning Rasterizer bullshit.)


I mean, it kinda would have to have a 1080p screen, maybe not in the the "they could make it work on a 720p screen" but definitely in the "how in the fuck are we going to market device for a target audience that definitely won't accept a 720p screen on a handheld  in 2019 for $400.?"

Pemalite said:

potato_hamster said:

Furthermore, where do you think I to supposed to logically land going from 14 nm to 7 nm? What are you basing that off of? If you're basing it on previous advancements, such as say going from 20 nm to 14 nm, is it still reasonable to apply here? Do we know enough about this new 7nm fabrication process to be able to predict what kind of TDP improvement we should get? Will that 7nm process be stable enough to produce cost-effective yields in the next year or so?

Early reports are placing the 7nm process at a 2.6x improvement over 14nm.

TSMC was pegging their 7nm process to be a 1.63x improvement over their 10nm process, which in turn had a 14nm BEOL.
TSMC's 16nm process had a 20nm BEOL.

You need to keep in mind that these aren't actually 7nm and 14nm fabrication processes though, they have been bastardized into advertising numbers to trick the less educated.

But the improvement from TSMC's 16nm to 7nm is bloody massive. Global Foundries, Samsung and so on are seeing similar improvements.
The jump to "7nm" is probably going to be one of the most significant fabrication improvements we have seen in a long time.


https://www.anandtech.com/show/12677/tsmc-kicks-off-volume-production-of-7nm-chips

"TSMC’s CLN7FF process technology will rely on deep ultraviolet (DUV) lithography with argon fluoride (ArF) excimer lasers operating on a 193 nm wavelength. As a result, the world’s largest contract maker of semiconductors will be able to use existing manufacturing tools to make 7 nm chips. Meanwhile, to keep using DUV lithography the company and its customers have to use multipatterning (triple and quadruple patterning), which increases design and production costs as well as product cycles."

If I'm reading this correctly (and forgive me as I am not anywhere close to an expert at these manufacturing processes) it appears to me that TSMC's 7nm process might actually be more expensive than previous fabrication processes? Doesn't that fly in the face of previous claims about how much you can expect such an APU based on this technology to cost? Let's also keep in mind that production of these chips is only getting underway right now, and they plan on ramping up production of different 7nm processes oeer the next year or so. If Sony is going to produce a PS4 portable, the window for releasing it more than likely shuts firmly as soon as the PS5 releases, so unless these new hypothetical 7nm AMD 2300 APUs, and/or PS4 portable semi-custom APU is one of the 18 customer products being manufactured in 2018, or having it manufactured by one of the other producers ASAP, this hypothetical handheld would most likely be released in 2019-2020, which falls squarely in PS5 territory. The Vita experienced very similar issues launching a year before the PS4. People didn't really see the appeal of paying $100 less than a PS4 to play dated-looking ports of PS3 games. Wouldn't a PS4 portable have to endure similar challenges?

Pemalite said:

potato_hamster said:

What kind of modifications (if any) can  AMD make to the design of the chip to make it power efficient than their current offeringgs?

Is this hypothetical? Or do you want a list? I can provide a list.


Considering AMD doesn't currently have any 7nm APUs they're offering to the public, it's going to be pretty hard to improve on something that doesn't exist. But if you think you're up for improving an APU that might not currently exist and whose design definitely isn't public, please go ahead. I'm very curious how you would improve something you can't possibly know enough about. Why don't you tell me how you'd simultaneously improve the fuel economy and  BHP of the 2019 Toyota Supra while you're at it.

Last edited by potato_hamster - on 14 May 2018