Forums - Politics Discussion - Can the Rape Culture in the West be Reduced with Guns?

Ka-pi96 said:
The US already has guns... and still has plenty of rapes, so clearly the answer is no.

So true, on top of that there is a huge rape problem in all branches of the military which has even more guns then the civilian population. 



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Maybe not guns, but knives and bats certainly.
Remember, those weapons are more deadly.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

Jumpin said:
Maybe not guns, but knives and bats certainly.
Remember, those weapons are more deadly.

LOL :P I imagined this in the wrong way

Dogs are also quite dangerous, they kill and injure a lot of people each year and they could be used to get more rapes, but yeah guns should do the job.

But I don´t really think that rape culture should be made bigger with the help of guns. Less guns and more knowledge to reduce the number of rapes. Happy people who appreciate others, don´t often rape their friends/family or even strangers. In the West, what ever that means, rapes are most often done by men to someone they know and because of that, knives, dogs, guns or pepper sprays don´t offer much protection. There could be chance that the rape victim kills him/herself with gun, so in that way it might be a solution to the problem (in a twisted and wrong way), but more likely the rapist has the gun/knive/bat/bat/dog and it makes it easier to rape.

So yes more weapons if more rapes are needed and less weapons if less rapes are wanted. I want less rapes and would like to see less guns, guns should be for hunting and not for "protection".



Jaicee said:
Jumpin said:

On the concept of "rape culture" - I am not so certain that exists in the West - unless you go by a looser Swedish-type definition.

If you go to some countries, and some specific areas of countries, there definitely is a sort of a culture where men are encouraged to manipulate, dehumanize, and harass women, and this is deemed "just being a man." It's a belief that men (or masculine men) are inherently uncontrollable around women and should be expected to be always trying to get in every woman's pants. Ironically, you see this sort of stuff in the socially-conservative regions where sex is considered more shameful.

I don't know if that is quite "rape culture," but it is definitely a normalization and encouragement of some very toxic behaviour in the name of masculinity. Masculinity is different in different areas - so, to Germans, the Latin American idea of masculinity is VEEEERRRY different from ours; neither is right or wrong, just different. In some cultures, it is seen as masculine to beat up women and establish dominance; and in the vast majority of the west (sadly not all) of the west, this is seen as reprehensible or animal-like, and the opposite of masculine behaviour.

 

 

Then there is râpé culture, which is also bad!

Rape is so funny.

In my view of it, rape culture is any environment wherein predatory sexual behavior is treated as normal or trivial. I trust you'll forgive me for embracing this broad, intolerant definition thereof.

I am conversely not a liberal when it comes to gender definitions. Masculine and feminine, in my view of it, are just gendered ways of saying dominant and submissive respectively. For a man to want to be a "manly" man is for him to want to be a controlling man, and for a woman to want to be a "feminine" woman is for her to want to be controlled and demeaned. I don't view it as more complicated than that. An egalitarian society features no such concepts, in my opinion.

Liberals love to speak in careful nuances. "Mainstream" porn. "Toxic" masculinity. Etc. In reality, there is no other kind of masculinity, but only different strategies and degrees to which it is tolerated by a given society. That is why, despite all these different forms and expressions of masculinity existing around the world that you highlight, there is not a single country that treats women as the equals of men overall. Not even one. And it also why rape is a particular crime committed almost exclusively by men in each case.

"In my view of it, rape culture is any environment wherein predatory sexual behavior is treated as normal or trivial. I trust you'll forgive me for embracing this broad, intolerant definition thereof."

what would you define as predatory in this context?

 

"there is not a single country that treats women as the equals of men overall. "

so in your view men and women are the same when not socialised differently?

 

" For a man to want to be a "manly" man is for him to want to be a controlling man"

what about working out and wanting to be strong?

is it bad for a man to want to be able to squat 600 pounds?



AngryLittleAlchemist said:
Well a better point to start from would be to ask if rape culture in the West actually exists.

This. 



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Jumpin said:
 

Really? The biggest enemies of the porn industry are very clearly right-wing governments and activist groups. And if you think masculine = dominance, and feminine = submissive, then I don't think you have actually seen a lot of mainstream porn... or paid for sex in Amsterdam before :P

You're right: being a relatively poor American woman lacking both the resources and desire to engage in sex tourism, I don't have that experience going for me.

I do, however, have data concerning the general contents of pornography.  Approximately 88% of porn scenes contain violent acts (such as slapping, choking, etc.) and 49% include verbal aggression (mostly name-calling). Almost all (94%) of these portrayals of aggressive behavior are directed towards women, and about three-fourths of them are specifically committed by men. The women are almost always portrayed as finding these experiences pleasurable. I think this paints a very clear picture of what social roles are being portrayed in aggregate.

o_O.Q said:
 

"In my view of it, rape culture is any environment wherein predatory sexual behavior is treated as normal or trivial. I trust you'll forgive me for embracing this broad, intolerant definition thereof."

what would you define as predatory in this context?

 

"there is not a single country that treats women as the equals of men overall. "

so in your view men and women are the same when not socialised differently?

 

" For a man to want to be a "manly" man is for him to want to be a controlling man"

what about working out and wanting to be strong?

is it bad for a man to want to be able to squat 600 pounds?

Answering, again in order of the questions asked:

-By predatory I essentially mean unwanted sexual aggression; namely, sexual harassment and assault. I'm just using that as a blanket term to cover all of it.

- In the question of whether gendered behavior by men and women is mostly the product of nature or instead of nurture, men tend to conclude that it is mostly nature, while women tend to conclude that it is mostly nurture; social conditioning to behave in certain ways. Who is right? Well let's put it this way: Scientific findings as yet seem to reinforce the first view only to the degree that female scientists are absent from the picture. Remember that the next time you hear some guy online cite "evolutionary biology" or "science" in the abstract as an argument against feminist ideas that challenge gender roles.

-What I would object to in your last question is the simplistic equivocation of physical strength with being male, as though the weaker man is less legitimately male...or as though the physically fit woman is less legitimately female because she lifts weights. These gendered assumptions have a real impact on the way people live their lives. I've spoken to many women over the years who have told me that they deliberately avoid activities like weight-lifting out of fear that they'll "bulk up like a man", i.e. become less female as a result. I don't think that gendered stigmas like that should exist. Weight-lifting lifting should just be weight-lifting. It shouldn't be thought of as specifically male.

Last edited by Jaicee - on 14 April 2018

Jaicee said:
Jumpin said:

Really? The biggest enemies of the porn industry are very clearly right-wing governments and activist groups. And if you think masculine = dominance, and feminine = submissive, then I don't think you have actually seen a lot of mainstream porn... or paid for sex in Amsterdam before :P

You're right: being a relatively poor American woman lacking both the resources and desire to engage in sex tourism, I don't have that experience going for me.

I do, however, have data concerning the general contents of pornography.  Approximately 88% of porn scenes contain violent acts (such as slapping, choking, etc.) and 49% include verbal aggression (mostly name-calling). Almost all (94%) of these portrayals of aggressive behavior are directed towards women, and about three-fourths of them are specifically committed by men. The women are almost always portrayed as finding these experiences pleasurable. I think this paints a very clear picture of what social roles are being portrayed in aggregate.

o_O.Q said:

"In my view of it, rape culture is any environment wherein predatory sexual behavior is treated as normal or trivial. I trust you'll forgive me for embracing this broad, intolerant definition thereof."

what would you define as predatory in this context?

 

"there is not a single country that treats women as the equals of men overall. "

so in your view men and women are the same when not socialised differently?

 

" For a man to want to be a "manly" man is for him to want to be a controlling man"

what about working out and wanting to be strong?

is it bad for a man to want to be able to squat 600 pounds?

Answering, again in order of the questions asked:

-By predatory I essentially mean unwanted sexual aggression; namely, sexual harassment and assault. I'm just using that as a blanket term to cover all of it.

- In the question of whether gendered behavior by men and women is mostly the product of nature or instead of nurture, men tend to conclude that it is mostly nature, while women tend to conclude that it is mostly nurture; social conditioning to behave in certain ways. Who is right? Well let's put it this way: Scientific findings as yet seem to reinforce the first view only to the degree that female scientists are absent from the picture. Remember that the next time you hear some guy online cite "evolutionary biology" or "science" in the abstract as an argument against feminist ideas that challenge gender roles.

-What I would object to in your last question is the simplistic equivocation of physical strength with being male, as though the weaker man is less legitimately male...or as though the physically fit woman is less legitimately female because she lifts weights. These gendered assumptions have a real impact on the way people live their lives. I've spoken to many women over the years who have told me that they deliberately avoid activities like weight-lifting out of fear that they'll "bulk up like a man", i.e. become less female as a result. I don't think that gendered stigmas like that should exist. Weight-lifting lifting should just be weight-lifting. It shouldn't be thought of as specifically male.

 

"Remember that the next time you hear some guy online cite "evolutionary biology" or "science" in the abstract as an argument against feminist ideas that challenge gender roles."

fair enough, do you think then that if we socialised girls the same as boys then we'd have men and women that behave the same in adulthood?

 

" I've spoken to many women over the years who have told me that they deliberately avoid activities like weight-lifting out of fear that they'll "bulk up like a man", i.e. become less female as a result. I don't think that gendered stigmas like that should exist."

yeah i've heard women make comments like that before and its pretty ignorant a thing to say since putting on muscle generally takes a lot of time and effort

but isn't that more to do though with what men and women find attractive though?

like maybe they figure that since men aren't attracted to large women with lots of muscle that they'd therefore avoid becoming that way?

 

"Approximately 88% of porn scenes contain violent acts (such as slapping, choking, etc.) "

this wasn't posted to me but an interesting thing about this is that i've experienced and men i know have experienced women requested to be slapped, have their hair pulled or choked or whatever and being a good man i'd refuse

i've wondered if maybe that's due to our society socialising women to percieve themselves as weaker and worthy of abuse of something



Democrats hate rape culture, think it is morally reprehensible, and that it has no place in our society.
Republicans hate rap culture, think it is morally reprehensible, and that it has no place in our society.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

o_O.Q said:
 

 

fair enough, do you think then that if we socialised girls the same as boys then we'd have men and women that behave the same in adulthood?

 

" I've spoken to many women over the years who have told me that they deliberately avoid activities like weight-lifting out of fear that they'll "bulk up like a man", i.e. become less female as a result. I don't think that gendered stigmas like that should exist."

yeah i've heard women make comments like that before and its pretty ignorant a thing to say since putting on muscle generally takes a lot of time and effort

but isn't that more to do though with what men and women find attractive though?

like maybe they figure that since men aren't attracted to large women with lots of muscle that they'd therefore avoid becoming that way?

 

"Approximately 88% of porn scenes contain violent acts (such as slapping, choking, etc.) "

this wasn't posted to me but an interesting thing about this is that i've experienced and men i know have experienced women requested to be slapped, have their hair pulled or choked or whatever and being a good man i'd refuse

i've wondered if maybe that's due to our society socialising women to percieve themselves as weaker and worthy of abuse of something

Answering once more in order of your queries:

-More or less, yeah. I think that if we socialized girls and boys in the same sorts of ways, they'd probably tend to wind up more behaviorally alike in adulthood.

-Aaaah, but WHY do people feel these particular kinds of attractions? Is it necessarily, for example, just "in the blood" for men to aesthetically prefer physically frail women or might that preference reflect a conditioned need to feel superior? Conversely, women tend to prefer muscular men, I believe, because we are taught to believe that we are, to use an expression I have heard many times in my life, "the weaker sex" (physically, mentally, and emotionally, all; basically, we're conditioned to view ourselves as inferior in every way) and accordingly seek protection from without (physically, financially, etc.).

Jumpin said:
Democrats hate rape culture, think it is morally reprehensible, and that it has no place in our society.
Republicans hate rap culture, think it is morally reprehensible, and that it has no place in our society.

If it is so despised by politicians, then why is Donald Trump still my president right now? How did he get there in the first place? Why is Eric Greitens still the governor of Missouri? These things keep happening.



The MeToo Movement started a social media movement. Now it is up to politicians and the justice system to initiate laws to make change and end rape culture.