Forums - Politics Discussion - Can the Rape Culture in the West be Reduced with Guns?

Jaicee said:
o_O.Q said:

 

fair enough, do you think then that if we socialised girls the same as boys then we'd have men and women that behave the same in adulthood?

 

" I've spoken to many women over the years who have told me that they deliberately avoid activities like weight-lifting out of fear that they'll "bulk up like a man", i.e. become less female as a result. I don't think that gendered stigmas like that should exist."

yeah i've heard women make comments like that before and its pretty ignorant a thing to say since putting on muscle generally takes a lot of time and effort

but isn't that more to do though with what men and women find attractive though?

like maybe they figure that since men aren't attracted to large women with lots of muscle that they'd therefore avoid becoming that way?

 

"Approximately 88% of porn scenes contain violent acts (such as slapping, choking, etc.) "

this wasn't posted to me but an interesting thing about this is that i've experienced and men i know have experienced women requested to be slapped, have their hair pulled or choked or whatever and being a good man i'd refuse

i've wondered if maybe that's due to our society socialising women to percieve themselves as weaker and worthy of abuse of something

Answering once more in order of your queries:

-More or less, yeah. I think that if we socialized girls and boys in the same sorts of ways, they'd probably tend to wind up more behaviorally alike in adulthood.

-Aaaah, but WHY do people feel these particular kinds of attractions? Is it necessarily, for example, just "in the blood" for men to aesthetically prefer physically frail women or might that preference reflect a conditioned need to feel superior? Conversely, women tend to prefer muscular men, I believe, because we are taught to believe that we are, to use an expression I have heard many times in my life, "the weaker sex" (physically, mentally, and emotionally, all; basically, we're conditioned to view ourselves as inferior in every way) and accordingly seek protection from without (physically, financially, etc.).

Jumpin said:
Democrats hate rape culture, think it is morally reprehensible, and that it has no place in our society.
Republicans hate rap culture, think it is morally reprehensible, and that it has no place in our society.

If it is so despised by politicians, then why is Donald Trump still my president right now? How did he get there in the first place? Why is Eric Greitens still the governor of Missouri? These things keep happening.

 

"Is it necessarily, for example, just "in the blood" for men to aesthetically prefer physically frail women or might that preference reflect a conditioned need to feel superior? Conversely, women tend to prefer muscular men, I believe, because we are taught to believe that we are, to use an expression I have heard many times in my life, "the weaker sex""

 

ah i see where you are going with this, that's very interesting, maybe with time attraction will change so that people find the opposite sex more attractive when their appearance is closer to their own sex



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Jaicee said:
Jumpin said:
Democrats hate rape culture, think it is morally reprehensible, and that it has no place in our society.
Republicans hate rap culture, think it is morally reprehensible, and that it has no place in our society.

If it is so despised by politicians, then why is Donald Trump still my president right now? How did he get there in the first place? Why is Eric Greitens still the governor of Missouri? These things keep happening.

I don't know! Because voters hate rap more than rape?



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

o_O.Q said:
AngryLittleAlchemist said:
Well a better point to start from would be to ask if rape culture in the West actually exists.

 

https://thinkprogress.org/1-in-3-college-men-in-survey-say-they-would-rape-a-woman-if-they-could-get-away-with-it-ffa7406b9778/

http://www.arlingtonwestsantamonica.org/MST.html

i think these reports if accurate would constitute clear signs of a rape culture

Jesus Christ, here we go again with your inability to comprehend what is right in front of your face.

Even if we take the study prima facie it does NOT support your idea of "rape culture" which would be a predominant view (see: normalized) that rape is acceptable. Your own source is replete with issues and at best only supports the notion of 1/6th of society normalizing rape. (1/2 male, then 1/3 of males). In what universe is that normalized?

Now, let's move forward to the actual study which involved a mere 73 men on a single campus. That's problem 1. Problem two for you is when the question is presented as a rape shown here:

When asked whether they would act on “intentions to rape a woman” with the same assurances they wouldn’t face consequences, just 13.6 percent of participants agreed.

So now we're entering sub 7% of the population.

Problem three is trying to compare India to any Western culture at all as if it were an analogous setting. 

It's just insane to me that you cannot even be bothered to take a step backward from your intransigence to see things objectively as they are.



No one likes rape.  Conservatives don't like it.  Liberals don't like it.  


The problem is that people don't understand how rape happens, or even exactly what it is. 

Why people don't know what rape is:

There's a lot of instances where it's really hard to say what consent is.  If two drunk people have sex together, legally they are not in their right mind.  Legally they might not be able to consent.  Does that mean that they raped each other?  Does that mean that one raped the other?  Just based off those details, it's hard to say what the right answer is.  Maybe one of them drunkenly shoved the other into having sex, maybe it was consensual because they both agreed to it.  

There's also instances where someone is manipulated into having sex.  Or even blackmailed or something else.  

There's also a misunderstanding about why people dress up the way they do.  "Well, she dressed up sexily because she was looking for sex.  So clearly it was consensual."  Even though that's not how that works.  

 

People don't always understand how rape happens: 

Rape isn't always a kidnapping and being shoved against the bed. Sometimes it's a lady sleeping at a lifelong friend's house, and they creep into their room and stick their penis inside them while they're sleeping.

Sometimes, it's done by the "nice guy" who is taking her home one night after drinking (but actually being drugged), and takes advantage of the situation.  

Sometimes, it's being manipulated by someone.

 

Do we have a rape culture because people don't care about it?  No, but we do because people make excuses about what it is.  



OhNoYouDont said:
o_O.Q said:

 

https://thinkprogress.org/1-in-3-college-men-in-survey-say-they-would-rape-a-woman-if-they-could-get-away-with-it-ffa7406b9778/

http://www.arlingtonwestsantamonica.org/MST.html

i think these reports if accurate would constitute clear signs of a rape culture

Jesus Christ, here we go again with your inability to comprehend what is right in front of your face.

Even if we take the study prima facie it does NOT support your idea of "rape culture" which would be a predominant view (see: normalized) that rape is acceptable. Your own source is replete with issues and at best only supports the notion of 1/6th of society normalizing rape. (1/2 male, then 1/3 of males). In what universe is that normalized?

Now, let's move forward to the actual study which involved a mere 73 men on a single campus. That's problem 1. Problem two for you is when the question is presented as a rape shown here:

When asked whether they would act on “intentions to rape a woman” with the same assurances they wouldn’t face consequences, just 13.6 percent of participants agreed.

So now we're entering sub 7% of the population.

Problem three is trying to compare India to any Western culture at all as if it were an analogous setting. 

It's just insane to me that you cannot even be bothered to take a step backward from your intransigence to see things objectively as they are.

 

"Even if we take the study prima facie it does NOT support your idea of "rape culture" which would be a predominant view"

a culture does not have to be the predominant view of the society... west indians for example have a particular type of culture that differs from most of the society but they are still a part of the society

 

"Problem two for you is when the question is presented as a rape shown here:

When asked whether they would act on “intentions to rape a woman” with the same assurances they wouldn’t face consequences, just 13.6 percent of participants agreed."

...which was the point

"But, when the researchers actually used the word “rape” in their question, those numbers dropped much lower — suggesting that many college men don’t associate the act of forcing a woman to have sex with them with the crime of committing rape."

the point being that the men did not consider coercing a woman to have sex to be a crime/rape... how did you not understand that?

 

"Problem three is trying to compare India to any Western culture at all as if it were an analogous setting. "

which was not the main point of this thread... the point was simply that women who face a more severe problem with rape in indian have looked to arming themselves as a solution and i'm asking if that may be a viable solution for the problems with the rape culture in the west

 

"It's just insane to me that you cannot even be bothered to take a step backward from your intransigence to see things objectively as they are."

and what would be the objective way of viewing things in this context?


ah i remember you, you're that guy that posted all of that nonsense on my wall because you couldn't understand the connection between technology and waste... how are you man?



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o_O.Q said:

"Remember that the next time you hear some guy online cite "evolutionary biology" or "science" in the abstract as an argument against feminist ideas that challenge gender roles."

fair enough, do you think then that if we socialised girls the same as boys then we'd have men and women that behave the same in adulthood?

 

" I've spoken to many women over the years who have told me that they deliberately avoid activities like weight-lifting out of fear that they'll "bulk up like a man", i.e. become less female as a result. I don't think that gendered stigmas like that should exist."

yeah i've heard women make comments like that before and its pretty ignorant a thing to say since putting on muscle generally takes a lot of time and effort

but isn't that more to do though with what men and women find attractive though?

like maybe they figure that since men aren't attracted to large women with lots of muscle that they'd therefore avoid becoming that way?

 

"Approximately 88% of porn scenes contain violent acts (such as slapping, choking, etc.) "

this wasn't posted to me but an interesting thing about this is that i've experienced and men i know have experienced women requested to be slapped, have their hair pulled or choked or whatever and being a good man i'd refuse

i've wondered if maybe that's due to our society socialising women to percieve themselves as weaker and worthy of abuse of something

As many others have said, guns would not be a solution, but they might instead make the problem worse.

And to the bolded, so you don´t like to please your partner, because that somehow would make you a bad man? Pain and pleasure can go hand in hand, there is nothing wrong in concensual kinkiness, its doesn´t make anyone bad.

And as someone said, when alcohol is in the picture, it can make it difficult to know if something that happened was a rape or if it wasn´t. Two adults who are equally drunk and together decide to have sex, should be allowed to do so, but if one is clearly more intoxicated then its not even ground and the other one should understand that and refuse to have sex or at least not manipulate the other into sex.

But yeah, there is a lot of grey area there and not every rape is as much rape as another rape.



AngryLittleAlchemist said:
Well a better point to start from would be to ask if rape culture in the West actually exists.

If it doesn't exist, that pretty much makes this whole thread moot.  And, it is clear to anyone that has actually experienced life in "western culture" that such a thing does not exist.  



o_O.Q said:

"Is it necessarily, for example, just "in the blood" for men to aesthetically prefer physically frail women or might that preference reflect a conditioned need to feel superior? Conversely, women tend to prefer muscular men, I believe, because we are taught to believe that we are, to use an expression I have heard many times in my life, "the weaker sex""

 

ah i see where you are going with this, that's very interesting, maybe with time attraction will change so that people find the opposite sex more attractive when their appearance is closer to their own sex

Exactly. Now I think we're on the same page.



o_O.Q said:
OhNoYouDont said:

Jesus Christ, here we go again with your inability to comprehend what is right in front of your face.

Even if we take the study prima facie it does NOT support your idea of "rape culture" which would be a predominant view (see: normalized) that rape is acceptable. Your own source is replete with issues and at best only supports the notion of 1/6th of society normalizing rape. (1/2 male, then 1/3 of males). In what universe is that normalized?

Now, let's move forward to the actual study which involved a mere 73 men on a single campus. That's problem 1. Problem two for you is when the question is presented as a rape shown here:

When asked whether they would act on “intentions to rape a woman” with the same assurances they wouldn’t face consequences, just 13.6 percent of participants agreed.

So now we're entering sub 7% of the population.

Problem three is trying to compare India to any Western culture at all as if it were an analogous setting. 

It's just insane to me that you cannot even be bothered to take a step backward from your intransigence to see things objectively as they are.

 

"Even if we take the study prima facie it does NOT support your idea of "rape culture" which would be a predominant view"

a culture does not have to be the predominant view of the society... west indians for example have a particular type of culture that differs from most of the society but they are still a part of the society

 

"Problem two for you is when the question is presented as a rape shown here:

When asked whether they would act on “intentions to rape a woman” with the same assurances they wouldn’t face consequences, just 13.6 percent of participants agreed."

...which was the point

"But, when the researchers actually used the word “rape” in their question, those numbers dropped much lower — suggesting that many college men don’t associate the act of forcing a woman to have sex with them with the crime of committing rape."

the point being that the men did not consider coercing a woman to have sex to be a crime/rape... how did you not understand that?

 

"Problem three is trying to compare India to any Western culture at all as if it were an analogous setting. "

which was not the main point of this thread... the point was simply that women who face a more severe problem with rape in indian have looked to arming themselves as a solution and i'm asking if that may be a viable solution for the problems with the rape culture in the west

 

"It's just insane to me that you cannot even be bothered to take a step backward from your intransigence to see things objectively as they are."

and what would be the objective way of viewing things in this context?


ah i remember you, you're that guy that posted all of that nonsense on my wall because you couldn't understand the connection between technology and waste... how are you man?

LOL here we go again.

Let's start with your own words (from OP):

“Rape Culture is an environment in which rape is prevalent and in which sexual violence against women is normalized and excused in the media and popular culture. "

Show me where the act of rape is normalized and excused in the west. Oh instead you cite a study which actually establishes the exact opposite of this. 

Objectivity would lead to the rather abundantly obvious conclusion that rape culture doesn't exist in the west champ. Are you going to start talking about the wage gap next, Mr. SJW?

Did you learn the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic yet? Obviously not if you're still clinging to a rather asinine perspective about technology, Luddite. What a walking contradiction...



Typical nuts post.