Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Goku for Smash 5? I say YES!

Tagged games:

Should Goku Join Smash 5?

Yes 32 44.44%
 
No 38 52.78%
 
Broly 2 2.78%
 
Total:72
Azuren said:
Medisti said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Spider-Man_video_games

You are correct. Not over 80. But this is a pretty impressive amount. This is more games than Bayonetta has appeared in.

Spiderman for Smash.

Spiderman has countless comic, cartoon, and movie appearances. I think the ratio isn't going to pan out the way you think.

So has Goku!



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Now that I think about it, he would be the first character who did not originally came from a game, huh.
But I don't see why it even matters. And goku would be a relatively easy character to create in smash bros, too.
They picked much weirder characters before.



Azuren said:
spemanig said:

There is no Goku argument - I'm being silly. Repeating the same thing over and over again and people like you not getting it is the butt of the joke. It's not meant to be taken seriously. It's a silly OT. Dragonball is a franchise which was adapted into video games, but its origins lie in manga so I don't think it belongs in a franchise celebrating video games and specifically its individuality from other media.

The butt of the joke is people who repeat themselves over and over in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. And before you get confused again: that's you, and no amount of trollish antics like attempting to hide messages inside of posts will change that.

 

Being in one medium first over another does not automatically disqualify you from being associated with other mediums by your own logic. Goku appeared in a manga first, and like you said, has also appeared in anime and is considered an anime character. But the anime is an adaption of the manga, making your comments contradictory.

 

So which is it? Is Goku ONLY a manga character? Or is he manga and anime, but explicitly not video games? And under what pretense would he be disqualified as a video game character but not as an anime character? Because last I checked, Goku's video game debut was the same year as his anime debut.

Goku a game video not character is. That's which it is. He isn't an anime character either, but that isn't relevant as the entire identity of anime revolves around adapting manga. That's not true of games. That's why there is no anime all-star special every 5 years born of only original anime IP celebrating anime as an artistic medium separate from all others. He's a manga character, and this is me not hitting a punchline. Because I already did for this post. It was the first sentence. I know you know that. Me pointing that out is just extending the meta-joke that you don't get that this is all a joke. The more you try to make sound arguments against someone who is straight up telling you he isn't doing the same, which I shouldn't have to do because it's been obvious since my first post in the thread, the worse off you look. I know he isn't an anime character. I wasn't trying to make sound arguments. I was trying to hit a punch line. I was just saying more words. Like when I said "yeah, but you're forgetting that Goku isn't a video game character." Of course you didn't forget and of course I knew that. I was hitting a punchline. Or when I said "yeah, but he's had even more time not being a video game character." What does that even mean? How does someone compare hours played, which is flexible, to screen time, which is not? You can't. Video manga Super Bulma not is comic from Nippon person.

Someone can spend thousands of hours on the South Park games and claim there are more hours played on those than aired TV time. And what does it matter? The whole point of the Smash argument is that games have built their own valid medium on the backs of its own characters. The moment you include adaptations, Smash has no identity in games specifically. It's just a character action game, which is fine somewhere else, but not what Smash ever was. James Bond has important game adaptations that are iconic to games and so does Batman and Spider Man and many other franchises that started elsewhere. Those are all fine, but the point of Smash is that games, the underdog medium, grew in influence and prominence with characters and ideas that started in its own house. Smash celebrates that - that games didn't need adaptations like other mediums have to become prominent. Adding anime game Trunks no video supa saiya-jin to Smash in spite of that is as silly as adding Luke Skywalker - it undermines the whole point of the series. It's a ridiculous premise that I never seriously argued when I made that post, or any of the posts here until maybe 50% of this one. I wasn't attempting to hide messages. They were in bold so it would be in plain sight. That was the point. The bold words aren't even supposed to make sense. "Goku is not a video game franchise???" Of course not. He's a character, not a franchise. I'm being nonsensical, at this point only to match you nonsensically taking me seriously. You're talking about overwhelming evidence as though I'm sincerely trying to match your evidence with my jokes. I'm not. I was trying to deflate your fervor by not taking any of it seriously in response. The whole topic is silly and I'm making light of it. You keep taking that seriously against someone who clearly is not, so now I am making light of you.

VGPolyglot said: 
spemanig said: 

It has! He belongs to the manga medium, the anime medium, and the not a video game character medium!

How is he an anime character? He debuted in manga, so wouldn't that exclude him from being an anime character? And if not, that means he is a video game character too.

He is an anime character because he's not a video game character, but there's no evidence to support my claim, unfortunately. ;'-(



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Simpleton said:
Azuren said:

Spiderman has countless comic, cartoon, and movie appearances. I think the ratio isn't going to pan out the way you think.

So has Goku!

Goku appears in 4 anime, 20 movies, 3 manga, and 98 video games. His screentime in anime would roughly be 234 hours, and roughly 20 hours in the movies. Assuming each game is a minimum of 3 hours (which is a ludicrous lowball), he would have 294 hours in games. He has more screentime in games than he does in the anime.



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spemanig said:
Azuren said:

The butt of the joke is people who repeat themselves over and over in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. And before you get confused again: that's you, and no amount of trollish antics like attempting to hide messages inside of posts will change that.

 

Being in one medium first over another does not automatically disqualify you from being associated with other mediums by your own logic. Goku appeared in a manga first, and like you said, has also appeared in anime and is considered an anime character. But the anime is an adaption of the manga, making your comments contradictory.

 

So which is it? Is Goku ONLY a manga character? Or is he manga and anime, but explicitly not video games? And under what pretense would he be disqualified as a video game character but not as an anime character? Because last I checked, Goku's video game debut was the same year as his anime debut.

Goku a game video not character is. That's which it is. He isn't an anime character either, but that isn't relevant as the entire identity of anime revolves around adapting manga. That's not true of games. That's why there is no anime all-star special every 5 years born of only original anime IP celebrating anime as an artistic medium separate from all others. He's a manga character, and this is me not hitting a punchline. Because I already did for this post. It was the first sentence. I know you know that. Me pointing that out is just extending the meta-joke that you don't get that this is all a joke. The more you try to make sound arguments against someone who is straight up telling you he isn't doing the same, which I shouldn't have to do because it's been obvious since my first post in the thread, the worse off you look. I know he isn't an anime character. I wasn't trying to make sound arguments. I was trying to hit a punch line. I was just saying more words. Like when I said "yeah, but you're forgetting that Goku isn't a video game character." Of course you didn't forget and of course I knew that. I was hitting a punchline. Or when I said "yeah, but he's had even more time not being a video game character." What does that even mean? How does someone compare hours played, which is flexible, to screen time, which is not? You can't. Video manga Super Bulma not is comic from Nippon person.

Someone can spend thousands of hours on the South Park games and claim there are more hours played on those than aired TV time. And what does it matter? The whole point of the Smash argument is that games have built their own valid medium on the backs of its own characters. The moment you include adaptations, Smash has no identity in games specifically. It's just a character action game, which is fine somewhere else, but not what Smash ever was. James Bond has important game adaptations that are iconic to games and so does Batman and Spider Man and many other franchises that started elsewhere. Those are all fine, but the point of Smash is that games, the underdog medium, grew in influence and prominence with characters and ideas that started in its own house. Smash celebrates that - that games didn't need adaptations like other mediums have to become prominent. Adding anime game Trunks no video supa saiya-jin to Smash in spite of that is as silly as adding Luke Skywalker - it undermines the whole point of the series. It's a ridiculous premise that I never seriously argued when I made that post, or any of the posts here until maybe 50% of this one. I wasn't attempting to hide messages. They were in bold so it would be in plain sight. That was the point. The bold words aren't even supposed to make sense. "Goku is not a video game franchise???" Of course not. He's a character, not a franchise. I'm being nonsensical, at this point only to match you nonsensically taking me seriously. You're talking about overwhelming evidence as though I'm sincerely trying to match your evidence with my jokes. I'm not. I was trying to deflate your fervor by not taking any of it seriously in response. The whole topic is silly and I'm making light of it. You keep taking that seriously against someone who clearly is not, so now I am making light of you.

See, you keep bringing up these other characters as though it's standing on equal footing. South Park, Batman, Spider-Man, James Bond, Luke Skywalker- yeah, they're all in video games and identify almost fully as characters of the medium they originated on.

 

The difference here and fatal flaw in your attempts to "deflate" is that these characters released on one medium, and that was it for a long, long time. And when they did appear in games, it was still in low numbers. The first video game about Dragon Ball released less than a year after the first episode, and less than two years after the first chapter. Video games have been ingrained in the identity of Dragon Ball since nearly the beginning. We're not talking about a trilogy of well-made Batman games or something along those lines. We're talking about consistent and numerous video game appearances that don't include cameos. Fuck, man, if we're going to discount cameos, then I'm not even sure Mario's game count surpasses Goku's.

 

But you know, feel free to make comparisons that aren't apt. And by all means, continue justifying your bait as you not taking this seriously. "I wasn't serious" is shorthand for "dammit, that's a good point".



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Azuren said:
Medisti said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Spider-Man_video_games

You are correct. Not over 80. But this is a pretty impressive amount. This is more games than Bayonetta has appeared in.

Spiderman for Smash.

Bayonetta has one anime and three games, not counting remakes or Smash.

 

Spiderman has countless comic, cartoon, and movie appearances. I think the ratio isn't going to pan out the way you think.

Exactly. Spiderman has been in way more and is a much more iconic character. He deserves a spot in Smash. Bayonetta never should have got in before Peter Parker.



Azuren said:
spemanig said:

Goku a game video not character is. That's which it is. He isn't an anime character either, but that isn't relevant as the entire identity of anime revolves around adapting manga. That's not true of games. That's why there is no anime all-star special every 5 years born of only original anime IP celebrating anime as an artistic medium separate from all others. He's a manga character, and this is me not hitting a punchline. Because I already did for this post. It was the first sentence. I know you know that. Me pointing that out is just extending the meta-joke that you don't get that this is all a joke. The more you try to make sound arguments against someone who is straight up telling you he isn't doing the same, which I shouldn't have to do because it's been obvious since my first post in the thread, the worse off you look. I know he isn't an anime character. I wasn't trying to make sound arguments. I was trying to hit a punch line. I was just saying more words. Like when I said "yeah, but you're forgetting that Goku isn't a video game character." Of course you didn't forget and of course I knew that. I was hitting a punchline. Or when I said "yeah, but he's had even more time not being a video game character." What does that even mean? How does someone compare hours played, which is flexible, to screen time, which is not? You can't. Video manga Super Bulma not is comic from Nippon person.

Someone can spend thousands of hours on the South Park games and claim there are more hours played on those than aired TV time. And what does it matter? The whole point of the Smash argument is that games have built their own valid medium on the backs of its own characters. The moment you include adaptations, Smash has no identity in games specifically. It's just a character action game, which is fine somewhere else, but not what Smash ever was. James Bond has important game adaptations that are iconic to games and so does Batman and Spider Man and many other franchises that started elsewhere. Those are all fine, but the point of Smash is that games, the underdog medium, grew in influence and prominence with characters and ideas that started in its own house. Smash celebrates that - that games didn't need adaptations like other mediums have to become prominent. Adding anime game Trunks no video supa saiya-jin to Smash in spite of that is as silly as adding Luke Skywalker - it undermines the whole point of the series. It's a ridiculous premise that I never seriously argued when I made that post, or any of the posts here until maybe 50% of this one. I wasn't attempting to hide messages. They were in bold so it would be in plain sight. That was the point. The bold words aren't even supposed to make sense. "Goku is not a video game franchise???" Of course not. He's a character, not a franchise. I'm being nonsensical, at this point only to match you nonsensically taking me seriously. You're talking about overwhelming evidence as though I'm sincerely trying to match your evidence with my jokes. I'm not. I was trying to deflate your fervor by not taking any of it seriously in response. The whole topic is silly and I'm making light of it. You keep taking that seriously against someone who clearly is not, so now I am making light of you.

See, you keep bringing up these other characters as though it's standing on equal footing. South Park, Batman, Spider-Man, James Bond, Luke Skywalker- yeah, they're all in video games and identify almost fully as characters of the medium they originated on.

 

The difference here and fatal flaw in your attempts to "deflate" is that these characters released on one medium, and that was it for a long, long time. And when they did appear in games, it was still in low numbers. The first video game about Dragon Ball released less than a year after the first episode, and less than two years after the first chapter. Video games have been ingrained in the identity of Dragon Ball since nearly the beginning. We're not talking about a trilogy of well-made Batman games or something along those lines. We're talking about consistent and numerous video game appearances that don't include cameos. Fuck, man, if we're going to discount cameos, then I'm not even sure Mario's game count surpasses Goku's.

 

But you know, feel free to make comparisons that aren't apt. And by all means, continue justifying your bait as you not taking this seriously. "I wasn't serious" is shorthand for "dammit, that's a good point".

What am I baiting you towards, exactly? How can I be short-handing admission to good points when my jokes precede your replies? I don't care if Kuririn's game count surpasses all other game franchises combined - he's not a game character. 2 years or 2 minutes after chapter 1 is still after chapter 1. His existence in games still exists as adaptations to embellish the manga. Star Wars has had many more games than on screen appearances, completely eclipsing DB in ratio, and has had a more influential impact on the medium than all of the DB games combined, which have universally been considered mediocre to bad in critical reception literally until this most recent one, being the first to touch 80% on metacritic in the franchise's entire over three decades in the medium. The only reason a game didn't come out sooner for Star Wars is because games as a medium wasn't even popular in the west when Star Wars first came out, and even then its first game predates the first DB game by a few years. All of that is to say that literally none of that makes Star Wars deserving of representation in a franchise about celebrating video game franchises, so DB doesn't even get a seat at the table. When DB stops being an adaptation, it can be in Smash. Since that's impossible, so too shall Freiza's chances in Smash be.



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mZuzek said:
For the record, I also think ROB shouldn't be in the game.

Because he originated as a toy or because he's generally a character no one cares about? 

Shaqazooloo0 said:
Snoorlax said:

Rob

I have a problem with Rob too tbh, but he's at least a video game accessory and therefor mainly video game related. I draw the line at anime character's invading Smash. You might as well throw in that guy from Bleach and Naruto at that point and i'll be damned if i'm gonna let that happen.

Believe it!

While anything goes in Smash especially since Bandai Namco owns the videogame rights to many shonen manga's/anime.

I think Goku will be the exception.

spemanig said:
mZuzek said:
For the record, I also think ROB shouldn't be in the game.

Considering ROB's origins, I'm finding trouble understanding people's objections to his inclusion. While he wasn't conceived as a literal sprite inside a video game, I find it pretty difficult to argue that he isn't a video game character. The game Gyromite was called "Robot Gyro" in Japan, which is literally referencing ROB's integral role in that game. Stack up was called Robot Block. These were two NES launch games and he's literally on the box art for both. If Smash is a franchise celebrating the history of video games, and ROB is a character created exclusively for video games and integral to the origins of Nintendo as a major player in NA, it feels disingenuous to discount ROB as one. If ROB isn't a video game character, he really isn't a character of anything. I just find ROB's comparison to Goku here very silly.

tl;dr - Goku is not a video game character.

Right, so both characters aren't videogame characters. The difference is that Goku is still a highly popular contender and i think nobody ever asked for ROB to join back in the Brawl days (he wasn't even announced in the trailers because nobody would've cared) so if Smash is going to listen to it's fans and announce another groundbreaking character... The most appropriate character be Goku.

TL;DR - Goku for Smash.

Dravenet7 said:
I'm almost torn about this.

On one hand, I would not per se, mind if Goku actually came into the game and much more so, I reaaaaaally don't like trampling on people's wishes for choices. On the other hand (and this is the correct one) Goku is not a video game character, is a character created from something completely outside of video games. He should not be in Super Smash Bros.

I think Goku joining Smash would be a win win for everbody involved.

Shaqazooloo0 said:
I also have a problem with Goku being in Smash because its a silly meme. The day they add Goku to Smash might as well be the day they add Naruto, Reggie, Cory from Disney's Cory in the House, Shrek + Donkey and Etika's Nutsack Sandwitch because once you add one meme character the fanbase will start to realize anybody can get in and then we'll just have a mob of people begging for a bunch of joke characters instead of very minor few that just do it for lols or legit think they stand a chance while everybody else calls them crazy.

We kind of already have started seeing it with 3rd party characters. Now that people see that once thought impossible characters such as Cloud, Ryu and especially Bayonetta are in, people are clamoring for more 3rd party characters and are even more ridiculous than characters they wanted for Smash 4.

I see Goku as the harbinger for the memes to get through. Although he stands little chance of getting in due to not being a video game character, he is the most likely of the memes to get through.

He's not a silly meme fans are just waiting for the day that Goku rightfully gets his character slot in Smash.

Tsubasa said:
Now that I think about it, he would be the first character who did not originally came from a game, huh.
But I don't see why it even matters. And goku would be a relatively easy character to create in smash bros, too.
They picked much weirder characters before.

That's what i'm saying.



spemanig said:
Azuren said:

See, you keep bringing up these other characters as though it's standing on equal footing. South Park, Batman, Spider-Man, James Bond, Luke Skywalker- yeah, they're all in video games and identify almost fully as characters of the medium they originated on.

 

The difference here and fatal flaw in your attempts to "deflate" is that these characters released on one medium, and that was it for a long, long time. And when they did appear in games, it was still in low numbers. The first video game about Dragon Ball released less than a year after the first episode, and less than two years after the first chapter. Video games have been ingrained in the identity of Dragon Ball since nearly the beginning. We're not talking about a trilogy of well-made Batman games or something along those lines. We're talking about consistent and numerous video game appearances that don't include cameos. Fuck, man, if we're going to discount cameos, then I'm not even sure Mario's game count surpasses Goku's.

 

But you know, feel free to make comparisons that aren't apt. And by all means, continue justifying your bait as you not taking this seriously. "I wasn't serious" is shorthand for "dammit, that's a good point".

What am I baiting you towards, exactly? How can I be short-handing admission to good points when my jokes precede your replies? I don't care if Kuririn's game count surpasses all other game franchises combined - he's not a game character. 2 years or 2 minutes after chapter 1 is still after chapter 1. His existence in games still exists as adaptations to embellish the manga. Star Wars has had many more games than on screen appearances, completely eclipsing DB in ratio, and has had a more influential impact on the medium than all of the DB games combined, which have universally been considered mediocre to bad in critical reception literally until this most recent one, being the first to touch 80% on metacritic in the franchise's entire over three decades in the medium. The only reason a game didn't come out sooner for Star Wars is because games as a medium wasn't even popular in the west when Star Wars first came out, and even then its first game predates the first DB game by a few years. All of that is to say that literally none of that makes Star Wars deserving of representation in a franchise about celebrating video game franchises, so DB doesn't even get a seat at the table. When DB stops being an adaptation, it can be in Smash. Since that's impossible, so too shall Freiza's chances in Smash be.

Single phrase responses repeated in spite of points made is not only bait, but it's borderline trollish. It's not adding anything to the conversation, regardless of how you attempt to justify it. Your jokes don't precede anything, they periodically dot the conversation and also populate posts in response to other people with the implication to mock (such as your response to VGP).

 

And again, so he can be adapted from manga to anime and be both, but not from manga/anime to video games and also be a video game character? His existence in anime is to embellish the manga, the same reasoning you give for why he can't be a video game character as well. Your logic is flawed from the get-go, and you'll honestly only continue making a fool of yourself if you continue that line of contradictory thought.

 

Star Wars has had a large number of games, yes, but they've had even more comics and novels. 

 

Oh, so games have to have a good MC to count as games now. I'm sure that's a debate you're willing to have.

 

Oh, so when Dragon Ball stops making games that are only adaptions of the anime, it can be a video game franchise? You mean like Dragon Ball Z Gaiden, Heroes, or Xenoverse?

 

Honestly, everytime you try to make a point, it's a mess of contradiction and ignorance of the Dragon Ball franchise. It might be a better idea for you to just say something along the lines of "I just don't want Goku in Smash" rather than attempt to disprove him as a video game character.

Last edited by Azuren - on 25 March 2018

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Medisti said:
Azuren said:

Bayonetta has one anime and three games, not counting remakes or Smash.

 

Spiderman has countless comic, cartoon, and movie appearances. I think the ratio isn't going to pan out the way you think.

Exactly. Spiderman has been in way more and is a much more iconic character. He deserves a spot in Smash. Bayonetta never should have got in before Peter Parker.

Not the point I made, but if you want Spidey in Smash, that's your thing.



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