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Forums - Movies & TV - The Fans Have Spoken, Last Jedi Drops A Massive 68%

JakDaSnack said:
Azuren said:

You really need to read up on the definition of a Mary Sue. Wanting to go back to Jakku doesn't have anything to do with it.

 

And Finn was wasted in favor of the Mary Sue. He could have had a subplot overcoming his fear culminating in a rematch with Adam  Driver's awful interpretation of a Sith. Instead, he has been relegated to an unimportant status by virtue of "Everyone focus on the Mary Sue".

 

If you want to discuss how Rey is or isn't a Mary Sue, you'll have to read my post a few pages back.

Considering that you think wanting to back to Jakku doesn’t have anything to do with a Mary Sue, you obviously don’t know what a Mary Sue is.  Also Adam driver isn’t a Sith, that has yet to be stated in this trilogy.  Considering you think Finn overcoming fear is his arc, you weren’t paying attention at all.  You have made it quite clear that you don’t understand these characters.  Please watch the movies again, and do some research before posting again.  It will do us all a favor.

Gonna cut this short. If you're going to insist on Rey not being a Mary Sue on the grounds that she wanted to go back to Jakku, then it is you, my friend, who doesn't know what a Mary Sue is. Come back when you've actual evidence to the contrary.



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thismeintiel said:
Azuren said:

You really need to read up on the definition of a Mary Sue. Wanting to go back to Jakku doesn't have anything to do with it.

 

And Finn was wasted in favor of the Mary Sue. He could have had a subplot overcoming his fear culminating in a rematch with Adam  Driver's awful interpretation of a Sith. Instead, he has been relegated to an unimportant status by virtue of "Everyone focus on the Mary Sue".

 

If you want to discuss how Rey is or isn't a Mary Sue, you'll have to read my post a few pages back.

The defense of the Mary Sue thing is probably the one of the most bizarre parts of this.  She fits the description to a T.  But, because people feel the need to like the film and/or because the media and Hollywood have taken the stance that if you call her a Mary Sue you are sexist, people are afraid to label her what she is.  They either give weak reasons, claim Luke is one then (probably the worse offense), or just call you sexist, "You just don't like having a girl in the treehouse."  All strawman arguments.  The truth is, Rey would be just as unlikable as a man.  In fact, it's the reason that people hated the young Anakin in TPM.  Fortunately, Lucas had the insight to fix that in the future episodes, where here they just made it worse, which has brought more people over to the side of her being a Mary Sue.

Really, if we weren't in such a heightened political climate, I think even more people would admit that they recognize she is a Mary Sue, which would probably take their enjoyment of this movie down a notch or two.

Anakin never stepped this far into Mary Sue territory. When he was young it granted him enhanced perception, and was justified by him being the god damn chosen one. When he was older, his skill was a combination of years of training and being the chosen one. And then when he finally became drunk on the idea of being the chosen one, Obi-wan cut his damn legs off. Anakin was troubled and his skills were well explained. Rey is just spayshul and can do master level Jedi shit with no training or knowledge of the techniques.

 

And yeah, it seems like no one wants to admit it for fear of political persecution. I didn't have any of these issues with the protag in RO. In fact, RO's only flaw was that blind guy not being a fallen Jedi (not enough Jedi in that movie). The rest of the movie was solid, and each character has their purpose. You could get rid of everyone but Rey and call EpVIII the "Rey Happy Hour" and the plot would hardly change. It all pivots on the worst character in ALL of Star Wars.



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JakDaSnack said:
Azuren said:

You really need to read up on the definition of a Mary Sue. Wanting to go back to Jakku doesn't have anything to do with it.

 

And Finn was wasted in favor of the Mary Sue. He could have had a subplot overcoming his fear culminating in a rematch with Adam  Driver's awful interpretation of a Sith. Instead, he has been relegated to an unimportant status by virtue of "Everyone focus on the Mary Sue".

 

If you want to discuss how Rey is or isn't a Mary Sue, you'll have to read my post a few pages back.

Considering that you think wanting to back to Jakku doesn’t have anything to do with a Mary Sue, you obviously don’t know what a Mary Sue is.  Also Adam driver isn’t a Sith, that has yet to be stated in this trilogy.  Considering you think Finn overcoming fear is his arc, you weren’t paying attention at all.  You have made it quite clear that you don’t understand these characters.  Please watch the movies again, and do some research before posting again.  It will do us all a favor.

It is you who does not know what a Mary Sue is.  Here's the textbook definition.

A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment.[1] They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience. 

Mary Sue stories—the adventures of the youngest and smartest ever person to graduate from the academy and ever get a commission at such a tender age. Usually characterized by unprecedented skill in everything from art to zoology, including karate and arm-wrestling. This character can also be found burrowing her way into the good graces/heart/mind of one of the Big Three [Kirk, Spock, and McCoy], if not all three at once. She saves the day by her wit and ability, and, if we are lucky, has the good grace to die at the end, being grieved by the entire ship.

That last part is specifically about Star Trek, where the title originated from, but it easily applies here.  She can fly and fix the MF just as good, if not better than Han Solo, no explanation given.  Han and Chewy instantly warm up to her.  Han even asks her to join his crew after knowing her for an extremely short time.  When he dies, Chewy instantly accepts her as the new Han, and the MF is hers, now.  She's just as handy with a blaster as a skilled shot, after only taking one practice shot.  She is just as good, if not better, with a lightsaber than anyone, no explanation or training given.  And she is 100% the most powerful user of the Force, as she can do anything and everything with not only little to no training, but also with little to no concentration/effort.

TEXTBOOK MARY SUE.



thismeintiel said:

The defense of the Mary Sue thing is probably the one of the most bizarre parts of this.  She fits the description to a T.  But, because people feel the need to like the film and/or because the media and Hollywood have taken the stance that if you call her a Mary Sue you are sexist, people are afraid to label her what she is.  They either give weak reasons, claim Luke is one then (probably the worse offense), or just call you sexist, "You just don't like having a girl in the treehouse."  All strawman arguments.  The truth is, Rey would be just as unlikable as a man.  In fact, it's the reason that people hated the young Anakin in TPM.  Fortunately, Lucas had the insight to fix that in the future episodes, where here they just made it worse, which has brought more people over to the side of her being a Mary Sue.

Really, if we weren't in such a heightened political climate, I think even more people would admit that they recognize she is a Mary Sue, which would probably take their enjoyment of this movie down a notch or two.

From Wikipedia:

Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment.[1] They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience. Sometimes, the name is reserved only for women, but more often the name is used for both genders. A male can also be referred to as a Marty Sue or Gary Stu, but Mary Sue is used more commonly.

In what way does this not apply to both Luke and Rey? I completely agree that she is a Mary Sue, but so is Luke. Rey might be quicker to learn many of the abilities that Luke learned but they are both exceptionally fast compared to even Anakin.

My issue with  alot (not all) of the criticism I have heard is that people claim that she is a Mary Sue because the writers/directors want to make the male characters look bad, yet these critics can´t point to a single event or line of dialogue that would point to this in the movies. I agree with you that the political discourse is toxic right now, but I would claim it comes from both feminists and anti-feminists (ofcourse not all of them) where the analysis of different matters is highly irrational and emotional in nature.



Puppyroach said:
thismeintiel said:

The defense of the Mary Sue thing is probably the one of the most bizarre parts of this.  She fits the description to a T.  But, because people feel the need to like the film and/or because the media and Hollywood have taken the stance that if you call her a Mary Sue you are sexist, people are afraid to label her what she is.  They either give weak reasons, claim Luke is one then (probably the worse offense), or just call you sexist, "You just don't like having a girl in the treehouse."  All strawman arguments.  The truth is, Rey would be just as unlikable as a man.  In fact, it's the reason that people hated the young Anakin in TPM.  Fortunately, Lucas had the insight to fix that in the future episodes, where here they just made it worse, which has brought more people over to the side of her being a Mary Sue.

Really, if we weren't in such a heightened political climate, I think even more people would admit that they recognize she is a Mary Sue, which would probably take their enjoyment of this movie down a notch or two.

From Wikipedia:

Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment.[1] They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience. Sometimes, the name is reserved only for women, but more often the name is used for both genders. A male can also be referred to as a Marty Sue or Gary Stu, but Mary Sue is used more commonly.

In what way does this not apply to both Luke and Rey? I completely agree that she is a Mary Sue, but so is Luke. Rey might be quicker to learn many of the abilities that Luke learned but they are both exceptionally fast compared to even Anakin.

My issue with  alot (not all) of the criticism I have heard is that people claim that she is a Mary Sue because the writers/directors want to make the male characters look bad, yet these critics can´t point to a single event or line of dialogue that would point to this in the movies. I agree with you that the political discourse is toxic right now, but I would claim it comes from both feminists and anti-feminists (ofcourse not all of them) where the analysis of different matters is highly irrational and emotional in nature.

Because Luke fails a lot, is not a perfect Jedi, and required years of training to best an enfeebled Vader. If you want to argue that she isn't a Mary Sue, then maybe do a bit of research on the characters you're comparing her to. 



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Azuren said:
JakDaSnack said:

Considering that you think wanting to back to Jakku doesn’t have anything to do with a Mary Sue, you obviously don’t know what a Mary Sue is.  Also Adam driver isn’t a Sith, that has yet to be stated in this trilogy.  Considering you think Finn overcoming fear is his arc, you weren’t paying attention at all.  You have made it quite clear that you don’t understand these characters.  Please watch the movies again, and do some research before posting again.  It will do us all a favor.

Gonna cut this short. If you're going to insist on Rey not being a Mary Sue on the grounds that she wanted to go back to Jakku, then it is you, my friend, who doesn't know what a Mary Sue is. Come back when you've actual evidence to the 

Lol, sorry friend I’m not gonna get sucked into this. You and countless others have been arguing about her being a Mary Sue for 2 years.  I just made one quick argument, that you didn’t even quote correctly, and moved on to my main argument which was on Finn.  If you want to talk about Finns arc, go ahead.  But the mary Sue stuff is pointless as nobody seems to be budging one way or the other.

.



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Azuren said:
thismeintiel said:

The defense of the Mary Sue thing is probably the one of the most bizarre parts of this.  She fits the description to a T.  But, because people feel the need to like the film and/or because the media and Hollywood have taken the stance that if you call her a Mary Sue you are sexist, people are afraid to label her what she is.  They either give weak reasons, claim Luke is one then (probably the worse offense), or just call you sexist, "You just don't like having a girl in the treehouse."  All strawman arguments.  The truth is, Rey would be just as unlikable as a man.  In fact, it's the reason that people hated the young Anakin in TPM.  Fortunately, Lucas had the insight to fix that in the future episodes, where here they just made it worse, which has brought more people over to the side of her being a Mary Sue.

Really, if we weren't in such a heightened political climate, I think even more people would admit that they recognize she is a Mary Sue, which would probably take their enjoyment of this movie down a notch or two.

Anakin never stepped this far into Mary Sue territory. When he was young it granted him enhanced perception, and was justified by him being the god damn chosen one. When he was older, his skill was a combination of years of training and being the chosen one. And then when he finally became drunk on the idea of being the chosen one, Obi-wan cut his damn legs off. Anakin was troubled and his skills were well explained. Rey is just spayshul and can do master level Jedi shit with no training or knowledge of the techniques.

I agree he never stepped that far into when he was young.  But, I think fans could tell where things were headed and disliked the character.  Like I said, Lucas had the insight to tone things down a little bit.  In the 2nd and 3rd films, he was definitely not the best at everything he tried.  I say good job to Lucas, at least on that, but boo to this director for making it even worse with Rey.  The scene where she lifts like 30 boulders with absolutely no effort is not only cringy, it pissed me off.



Puppyroach said:
Cerebralbore101 said:

If they would have gone out to find Jedi to train, they would have been caught and killed. Remember the OG trilogy never spelled out exactly how the Republic fell, or exactly how the Clone Wars went down, or exactly how Vader hunted down all the Jedi. As an audience (watching the films before the prequel movies came out) we have no clue what happened, and this lack of information means we can't really judge Yoda or Obi Wan. On the flip side we know exactly what happened with Luke, so we are left in the perfect position to judge him. 

I don't think people really grasp how much the prequel movies messed up the Star Wars canon. Before those movies, Vader, Obi Wan, Yoda, and Palpatine were thought to have been over 100 years old, with the force keeping them alive. Uncle Owen was understood to have been in his 70's, and a much younger half brother to Vader (or perhaps not even truly related). The rise of the Empire was so catastrophic that virtually all history before the rise of the Empire was lost. This is why Han Solo calls the Force a hokey religion. Once you throw the prequels into the mix, this mythos is destroyed, and suddenly Han would have been alive during the clone wars, meaning his skepticism towards the Force would have made zero sense. 

Star Wars EU rarely ever touched on what happened shortly before the Empire, because that was supposed to be left up to the reader. It's the same thing with how, Wolverine's past was left to mystery for so many years. Mystery is part of what makes things cool, and a lot of times pulling back the veil ruins things. 

What are you talking about? The prequel movies are made by the same person that made the OG Star Wars. You are talking about speculations, not canon. Since you are judging the newer films by the measure of what was set up in the older films, you are dependent upon also judging the older films according to what was canon, which is what was set up in the prequel trilogy.

According to your argument, we should also be harsh in our judgement of episode 5 and 6 since they were only planned AFTER it turned out Star Wars was succesful (the "a new hope" was added later and a trilogy wasn´t planned). Speculation is that Vader wasn´t supposed to be Lukes and Leias father and Luke wasn´t supposed to be related to Leia. Or is there some sort of magic time limit of when a sequel is regarded as canon to you?

The prequel movies were made by the same person, but that doesn't stop them from being bad films that reframe the original trilogy in a bad light. I"m talking about things that the EU hints to, which is no longer canon, but was considered canon up until 1999. 

"Since you are judging the newer films by the measure of what was set up in the older films, you are dependent upon also judging the older films according to what was canon, which is what was set up in the prequel trilogy."

No I'm not, because the prequel trilogy didn't come chronologically before the original trilogy.  Those films were made over 20 years after the original trilogy films. There's an entire generation that saw the OG trilogy without needing to contextualize it within the prequel trilogy because the prequel trilogy didn't exist yet. This meme tries to point out the OG trilogy as having the same flaws as this new set of Star Wars films. But those flaws didn't exist in the OG trilogy at all, and were created by the prequel movies. 

According to your argument, we should also be harsh in our judgement of episode 5 and 6 since they were only planned AFTER it turned out Star Wars was succesful (the "a new hope" was added later and a trilogy wasn´t planned). Speculation is that Vader wasn´t supposed to be Lukes and Leias father and Luke wasn´t supposed to be related to Leia. Or is there some sort of magic time limit of when a sequel is regarded as canon to you?

That's comparing apples and oranges. We have decades of EU material, and the films having set up what the Star Wars mythos, and the character of Luke was. Then all that is changed by a completely different writer who had nothing to do with Star Wars. Compare this with a three year wait for Empire Strikes Back, after the first Star Wars film. 

Last edited by Cerebralbore101 - on 27 December 2017

JakDaSnack said:
Azuren said:

Gonna cut this short. If you're going to insist on Rey not being a Mary Sue on the grounds that she wanted to go back to Jakku, then it is you, my friend, who doesn't know what a Mary Sue is. Come back when you've actual evidence to the 

Lol, sorry friend I’m not gonna get sucked into this. You and countless others have been arguing about her being a Mary Sue for 2 years.  I just made one quick argument, that you didn’t even quote correctly, and moved on to my main argument which was on Finn.  If you want to talk about Finns arc, go ahead.  But the mary Sue stuff is pointless as nobody seems to be budging one way or the other.

.

Yeah, because no one on your side of the argument wants to actually research what a Mary Sue is. They'd rather resort to semantics ("Lol, he's not a Sith") and use non-arguments ("but Jakku!") than actually address the veritable mountain of evidence that she's a Mary Sue.



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Azuren said:
Puppyroach said:

From Wikipedia:

Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment.[1] They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience. Sometimes, the name is reserved only for women, but more often the name is used for both genders. A male can also be referred to as a Marty Sue or Gary Stu, but Mary Sue is used more commonly.

In what way does this not apply to both Luke and Rey? I completely agree that she is a Mary Sue, but so is Luke. Rey might be quicker to learn many of the abilities that Luke learned but they are both exceptionally fast compared to even Anakin.

My issue with  alot (not all) of the criticism I have heard is that people claim that she is a Mary Sue because the writers/directors want to make the male characters look bad, yet these critics can´t point to a single event or line of dialogue that would point to this in the movies. I agree with you that the political discourse is toxic right now, but I would claim it comes from both feminists and anti-feminists (ofcourse not all of them) where the analysis of different matters is highly irrational and emotional in nature.

Because Luke fails a lot, is not a perfect Jedi, and required years of training to best an enfeebled Vader. If you want to argue that she isn't a Mary Sue, then maybe do a bit of research on the characters you're comparing her to. 

I am arguing that both she and Luke are Mary Sues/Marty Sues... and she had multitudes of failures in TLJ: with how she handled her connection with Kylo, how she wanted him to the light side, how she dissobeyed Luke on the Island and how she couldn´t stop the First Order. I would still argue that both she and Luke are supposed to be perfect in their personality in many ways but they both make many big mistakes that shape events.