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Forums - Politics Discussion - Trump's tax proposal: raise taxes on the poor, give to the rich

mizzou_guy said:
Superman4 said:

Yet the Liberal media and Democrats throw out BS labels like Nazi and Racist to try and drive their point home or paint the President in a bad light. Increasing deportations of illegals and removing DACA doesnt make Trump a racist. Last time I checked their are plenty of white people in this country illegally from other countries. Last I checked Trump also denounced all hate groups including Neo-Nazis and the KKK. The reason Hillary and Obama get pointed out is because the Democrats and Liberals hale them as their gods that do no wrong while crapping from their mouths about Trump and everything they feel he is doing wrong. From a policy standpoint Trump is one of the best Presidents we have had in ages. If he had Obamas ability to speak he would be an amazing President. We have essentially swapped one for the other, one spoke a good game and was poor on execution with bad ideas, the other is bad with speaking but has great ideas about what needs to happen. If he had Obamas speaking ability he would have no problem getting everything he wants, ACA would be gone, Travel ban would be in place etc. 

All of that said though, the media is making the US look like a bunch of idiots, not Trump. The constant spin from companies like CNN, MSNBC, Wapo etc. get their base all riled up and create problems out of nothing. Those companies need to either report the news as it happens without interjecting their opinions or start off each show with "This is our opinion on what just happened". 

I just shat my pants at work.

LOL, Hope it didnt stink too bad. Dont leave out the first part "From a Policy Standpoint".  Trump is horrible at articulating his point, his ideas for the most part I agree with.  



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Superman4 said:
Machiavellian said:

No, that money was taxed for the person who made it.  It was not taxed for the people who are receiving it.  The people who are receiving it did nothing to make it so just like any personal gain you receive you should be taxed.  I am all for getting rid of the estate tax but only if as I stated, getting rid of bonus or personal gain that I am taxed as well.  If not they I do not see where I should accept any special privillage for the rich.  You can argue this all day but in the end, the people who are inheriting an estate did not contribute to the gain and thus should be tax just like everyone else.

Bonuses and overtime shouldnt be taxed any different than basic income. Why should the goverment get a bonus because of my work? We have way too many taxes and far too many politicians. We pay these people 100K+ each per year with all of the money they say is for roads and infrastructure. How many taxes do I need for roads? 90% on them in California suck and we clearly dont use tax money for what it was initially slated for.  Property tax is designed to allow the goverment to continually own your property. If you fail to pay they take your property. That money goes to infrstructure about as much as miy paycheck goes to cocaine and hookers....none, although some of it probably should. 

You are not getting my point.  The point is that those things are taxed and nothing is going to change anytime soon if ever.  I totally agree there needs to be an accounting to what is taxed and exactly where that money goes.  I know in some neighborhoods, I actually see that money used.  I see improvements in roads, schools, rec centers, parks etc.  I have also seen the opposite where you see nothing.

My main point is that the estate tax is no different than the taxes we pay for a bonus or if we win the lottery or if someone wins the lottery and give you 50 grand or any of the personal gain taxes we pay now.  Why should we the public give the rich a free ride when we do not get one as well.  So my stance is hell no to any of these billionaires trying to get something passed that totally benefit them but not trying to give us the 99% the same benefit.  Get rid of the bonus or personal gain taxes we pay and then I can see myself agreeing with getting rid of the estate tax.



The_Yoda said:
sundin13 said:

To use figures more accurately representing this tax plan:

Worker One is paid $1000 and is asked to pay 20% in taxes. Now, under Trump's "Everybody saves!" plan, he "only" has to pay 19.8% in taxes, saving him a whopping $2 per paycheck.
Worker Two is paid $10000 and is asked to pay 30% in taxes. Now, under Trump's "Everybody saves!" play, he only has to pay 21.9% in taxes, saving him "only" $810 per paycheck.

Pretty much everybody is getting an infinitesimally small benefit in terms of after-tax income, except the top 5% who are going to be making up to 10% more.

PS: I'm not trying to argue with you, just adding to what you are saying.

How much does worker one get back at the end of the year? How much does worker two get back at the end of the year?

Okay so how it works is that taxable income is what is assessed in the example.  This implys that both Worker One and Two have applied applicable deductions to their gross income to arrive at a tax bracket for which this example applies.  Well thats the only way to think about the example because that is what tax actually is... a return is (income - deductions) * tax rate... in laymens terms.  Owed tax and entitled returns are the same thing mathmatically, just opposites. 



SpokenTruth said:
Must be hard living with just $6 million instead of $7 million on a $10 million income. Now way to hire anyone now. Time to move everything off shore.

The problem is if you tax the rich too much they would just leave which means we get nothing. A lot of companies move their company to Canada and other countries. 

Taxing the rich to death means they will leave and you'll miss them when they're gone. Besides, Government wastes a lot of money they could easily cut back on certain things.



SpokenTruth said:
Snoopy said:

The problem is if you tax the rich too much they would just leave which means we get nothing. A lot of companies move their company to Canada and other countries. 

Taxing the rich to death means they will leave and you'll miss them when they're gone. Besides, Government wastes a lot of money they could easily cut back on certain things.

Those that believe they will repatriate money because we cut taxes are foolish.  As are those that think they will push any tax savings onto their employees versus their shareholders.

As for taxing them to death?  Do you not realize that the rich and corporations now pay far less than they did during the 1930s-1980s?  And when was our greatest growth periods?  When the top tax rate was over near 90%.  Further, the loop holes that allow a multibillion company to pay $0 taxes are still on the books. 


And yes, we could cut back on spending.  Quite a bit, actually.  But that's damn hard to do when you have a president that is pushing for a $50 billion wall plus another $50 billion for the military. 

I believe people forgot about Mitt Romeny.  When Mitt Romeny showed his tax returns we all found out that he paid less in taxes then his own maid.  It's crazy how people actually believe the Rich pay taxes the same has the average person on the street.

The crazy part is that we want to spend another 50 billion on a wall and 50 billion on the military when we could put that money and try to improve education level of the country and thus get people to work, creating new jobs, industries and pushing the country forward.

Last edited by Machiavellian - on 31 October 2017

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SpokenTruth said:
Snoopy said:

The problem is if you tax the rich too much they would just leave which means we get nothing. A lot of companies move their company to Canada and other countries. 

Taxing the rich to death means they will leave and you'll miss them when they're gone. Besides, Government wastes a lot of money they could easily cut back on certain things.

Those that believe they will repatriate money because we cut taxes are foolish.  As are those that think they will push any tax savings onto their employees versus their shareholders.

As for taxing them to death?  Do you not realize that the rich and corporations now pay far less than they did during the 1930s-1980s?  And when was our greatest growth periods?  When the top tax rate was over near 90%.  Further, the loop holes that allow a multibillion company to pay $0 taxes are still on the books. 


And yes, we could cut back on spending.  Quite a bit, actually.  But that's damn hard to do when you have a president that is pushing for a $50 billion wall plus another $50 billion for the military. 

1. No one paid 90% tax rate back then. There was a lot of loopholes and more than you think back then. Second, a strong defense in military spending is necessary for not only protection, but it pushes technology further for us and generated us a lot of money.

2. We spend over a hundred billion dollars on illegal immigrants a year as it is. If the wall can stop them from coming in (or at least make it harder) it can benefit us greatly. 50 billion for one year an estimated 150 million a year to maintain can benefit us in the long run.

 3. Other countries don't tax as much on their companies like we do that's why we see a lot of companies building their HQ in other countries to avoid higher taxes. Which means we get nothing at all. 

There is also something called the Laffer curve.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqLjyA0hL1s



SpokenTruth said:
Snoopy said:

1. No one paid 90% tax rate back then. There was a lot of loopholes and more than you think back then. Second, a strong defense in military spending is necessary for not only protection, but it pushes technology further for us and generated us a lot of money.

2. We spend over a hundred billion dollars on illegal immigrants a year as it is. If the wall can stop them from coming in (or at least make it harder) it can benefit us greatly. 50 billion for one year an estimated 150 million a year to maintain can benefit us in the long run.

 3. Other countries don't tax as much on their companies like we do that's why we see a lot of companies building their HQ in other countries to avoid higher taxes. Which means we get nothing at all. 

There is also something called the Laffer curve.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqLjyA0hL1s

1. Our military is already strong enough for protection.  Way more so than needed.  And how does it generate money?  Taxes spent is not new money nor is the military a revenue generating entity.  Further, a lot of our military spending goes to foreign nations.

2.  Illegal immigrants generate a net positive on the economy.  The Center for Immigration Studies suggests the wall could reduce tax burden by $12 - $15 billion but we would lose the economic benefit and other taxes they generate thereby creating a net loss.  They pay $12 billion per year according to the Social Security Administration and a further $11.6 billion in sales tax, property tax, etc...   Oh, any get ready for prices to increase because illigeal immigrants make up 40% of all Brickmasons, blockmasons, and stonemasons, 37% of all Drywall installers, ceiling tile installers and tapers, 31% of all roofers, 30% of agricultural workers, 27% of construction laborers....and more according to the Pew Research Center.

3. Given we just agreed that corporations do not pay the actual 35% rate, it's irreelvant where they move their HQ to.  Further moving money offshore to a tax haven like the Cayman Islands with a 0% rate is just as damaging to us as moving their HQ to elsewhere.  Canada has a 31% rate, Belgium has a 34% tax rate, Ireland is 12.5%, Switzerland is 18%, Panama is 25%, UK is 19%.  I mention them because they are the most common places they move to.  Canada and Belgium probably cost more to move to than the tax they save but the real issue is that we seem to care far more about competive rax rates than fixing loop holes. 

And yes, I'm familiar with the Laffer Curve...are you familiar with it being discredited?  Presuming taxes and revenue curve equally only looks good in graphics.

1. We have ourselves and our allies to protect. With countries like Russia and China we need to keep investing in our military and make sure we have the best technology available. Having the best military and teaming up with NATO makes it where no country wants to mess with us so it saves us a lot of money and lives in the long run. The military has helped innovate and create a lot of technology we use today. GPS, microwaves, air travel,ect.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/modern-civilian-tech-made-possible-wartime-research-development/

 

2. Illegal immigrants cost American taxpayer jobs. We have to spend 135 billion dollars for illegal immigrants and they hurt our education system since we have to lower the standard and spend more resources on them (I know from personal experience). They only make up a good chunk of the workforce due to cheap labor because they don't pay taxes or do the simple things like getting car insurance/register their cars. More Americans would get those jobs if they paid a little more or if we have a shortage for some reason we could easily create a similar H-2B program for it.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/record-135-billion-a-year-for-illegal-immigration-average-8075-each-25000-in-ny/article/2635757

3. We waste so much money in the government we could easily eliminate high taxes on companies. Big companies or billionaires wouldn't move to those countries if we were more competitive. Since we both agree companies and people move their money elsewhere we get nothing from it. Offshore accounts aren't just for taxes, but for protection to diversify your portfolio. Some Countries also use the U.S as an offshore banking so it's a mutual thing. 

 

The laffer curve is an economic theory that some disagree while some agree with. I personally agree with it because why couldn't a company or a billionaire move their money else where if they start getting taxed a lot.



Snoopy said:

1. We have ourselves and our allies to protect. With countries like Russia and China we need to keep investing in our military and make sure we have the best technology available. Having the best military and teaming up with NATO makes it where no country wants to mess with us so it saves us a lot of money and lives in the long run. The military has helped innovate and create a lot of technology we use today. GPS, microwaves, air travel,ect.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/modern-civilian-tech-made-possible-wartime-research-development/

 

2. Illegal immigrants cost American taxpayer jobs. We have to spend 135 billion dollars for illegal immigrants and they hurt our education system since we have to lower the standard and spend more resources on them (I know from personal experience). They only make up a good chunk of the workforce due to cheap labor because they don't pay taxes or do the simple things like getting car insurance/register their cars. More Americans would get those jobs if they paid a little more or if we have a shortage for some reason we could easily create a similar H-2B program for it.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/record-135-billion-a-year-for-illegal-immigration-average-8075-each-25000-in-ny/article/2635757

3. We waste so much money in the government we could easily eliminate high taxes on companies. Big companies or billionaires wouldn't move to those countries if we were more competitive. Since we both agree companies and people move their money elsewhere we get nothing from it. Offshore accounts aren't just for taxes, but for protection to diversify your portfolio. Some Countries also use the U.S as an offshore banking so it's a mutual thing. 

 

The laffer curve is an economic theory that some disagree while some agree with. I personally agree with it because why couldn't a company or a billionaire move their money else where if they start getting taxed a lot.

1. This site you listed does not validate their numbers.  The do not list any of their sources on how they get their calculations.  Also when I say list I mean a link that I can go to to verify their data.  Without the links those numbers are pretty much made up.

2.  If we waste so much money in the government then we do not need to spend so much like 65% just on our Military.  With the amount of money we spend on the Military right now we could improve every school in America twice over.  Hell, we could give free rides to any college for all kids so all our children has a chance to have a higher education which would put them all to work, creating Jobs improving the economy.  I have no problems with improving the tax code, I have a problem just giving the rich a free ride and believe somehow they will put back into the US.  This has already been done multiple times and each time the corporations just repurchase their stock, pay their CEOs more and just purchase bigger items and still move their assets to even cheaper countries.



Machiavellian said:
Snoopy said:

1. We have ourselves and our allies to protect. With countries like Russia and China we need to keep investing in our military and make sure we have the best technology available. Having the best military and teaming up with NATO makes it where no country wants to mess with us so it saves us a lot of money and lives in the long run. The military has helped innovate and create a lot of technology we use today. GPS, microwaves, air travel,ect.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/modern-civilian-tech-made-possible-wartime-research-development/

 

2. Illegal immigrants cost American taxpayer jobs. We have to spend 135 billion dollars for illegal immigrants and they hurt our education system since we have to lower the standard and spend more resources on them (I know from personal experience). They only make up a good chunk of the workforce due to cheap labor because they don't pay taxes or do the simple things like getting car insurance/register their cars. More Americans would get those jobs if they paid a little more or if we have a shortage for some reason we could easily create a similar H-2B program for it.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/record-135-billion-a-year-for-illegal-immigration-average-8075-each-25000-in-ny/article/2635757

3. We waste so much money in the government we could easily eliminate high taxes on companies. Big companies or billionaires wouldn't move to those countries if we were more competitive. Since we both agree companies and people move their money elsewhere we get nothing from it. Offshore accounts aren't just for taxes, but for protection to diversify your portfolio. Some Countries also use the U.S as an offshore banking so it's a mutual thing. 

 

The laffer curve is an economic theory that some disagree while some agree with. I personally agree with it because why couldn't a company or a billionaire move their money else where if they start getting taxed a lot.

1. This site you listed does not validate their numbers.  The do not list any of their sources on how they get their calculations.  Also when I say list I mean a link that I can go to to verify their data.  Without the links those numbers are pretty much made up.

2.  If we waste so much money in the government then we do not need to spend so much like 65% just on our Military.  With the amount of money we spend on the Military right now we could improve every school in America twice over.  Hell, we could give free rides to any college for all kids so all our children has a chance to have a higher education which would put them all to work, creating Jobs improving the economy.  I have no problems with improving the tax code, I have a problem just giving the rich a free ride and believe somehow they will put back into the US.  This has already been done multiple times and each time the corporations just repurchase their stock, pay their CEOs more and just purchase bigger items and still move their assets to even cheaper countries.

I actually have a little bit of insight in a few of the things you guys are discussing if you don't mind me jumping in.

1) So I did a bit of reading on how military spending affects GDP a few weeks back. Obviously being an economic question, theres a lot of disagreement as to the effects (economists never agree on anything), but the common consensus that I found was that, in the USA, military spending has a close to neutral effect of GDP. Some papers show it with a slight negative effect (dampening GDP due to increased federal debt) while others show it with a slight positive effect (increasing GDP due to the economic contributions of military development and R&D). 

What this largely means, is that while the effect of the spending itself is relatively neutral, it is inefficient. Spending a portion of that money elsewhere (say, education or infrastructure) would likely produce a greater positive effect on GDP (without ballooning the federal debt which would be the effect of increasing spending everywhere). 

Sources: 

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07388940490463906 - "Findings are robustly substantiated and reveal that military spending and growth have neither a statistical nor an economic impact on each other. This suggests that current U.S. political debates opposing or favoring military spending on the grounds of its economic merit are irrelevant."

https://www.mercatus.org/publication/defense-spending-and-economy - "The existing studies found that a dollar increase in federal defense spending results in a less-than-a-dollar increase in GDP when the spending increase is deficit financed. Combining this with a tax multiplier that is negative and greater than one, the authors estimate that over five years each $1 in federal defense-spending cuts will increase private spending by roughly $1.30. "

 

2) Illegal immigrants do cost the government much more in output than they pay in taxes. However, the question is a lot more complicated than that when you take in the effects of how they spend their money.

First of all, the cost to taxpayers. Yes, there is a cost. What that number is however, isn't quite as clear. What was provided above (roughly $100billion after factoring in taxes paid) is pretty much the highest estimate out there. Other estimates range from $6billion to $50billion to $85billion (after roughly adjusting for population changes). So yeah, there is a cost, but I'd say an average estimate would be closer to $70billion than $130billion.

Next comes unemployment. The typical logic is that immigrants take jobs, but that isn't factoring in the demand they create. Because of this, the impact on unemployment is basically null.

Finally, wages. Again, the effect isn't as strong as many people think. Most studies find a small decrease in wages of the high school dropout demographic and basically no impact, or even a slightly positive impact elsewhere.

Then there are the positive effects. Most notably, illegal immigration helps keep costs down. This goes for pretty much everything from food to houses. Because of this, the spending power of American families increases, meaning their earnings go further. This leads to overall, illegal immigration largely being a wash. You have slightly higher government spending but reduced consumer costs, increasing spending power and helping businesses. Because of this, high cost efforts to reduce illegal immigration largely are harmful economically.

Sources:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/sep/01/donald-trump/donald-trump-says-illegal-immigration-costs-113-bi/ - Presents numerous estimates for taxpayer cost of illegal immigration.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/jobs/2012/05/04/what-immigration-means-for-u-s-employment-and-wages/ - Summary from Brookings about the effects of immigration.

3) I don't have any real academic information to share about this last point, but I want to say that reducing government waste would be great. However, that needs to come before or alongside tax decreases. Decreasing taxes without also reducing unproductive government spending inflates the budget which creates longterm woes far outweighing short term gain (that information is from a CBO report somewhere but I can't remember which one and it seems like common sense so I don't think I need to source it). 

4) Finally, quick note about the Laffer curve. It is a full parabola. That means just decreasing taxes doesn't necessarily increase revenue. There is a sweet spot somewhere in the middle. Proof needs to be put forward to show that decreasing taxes will increase revenue in order to use the Laffer Curve in your argument (assuming anyone puts any stock in the Laffer Curve at all). 



Snoopy said:
SpokenTruth said:
Must be hard living with just $6 million instead of $7 million on a $10 million income. Now way to hire anyone now. Time to move everything off shore.

The problem is if you tax the rich too much they would just leave which means we get nothing. A lot of companies move their company to Canada and other countries. 

Taxing the rich to death means they will leave and you'll miss them when they're gone. Besides, Government wastes a lot of money they could easily cut back on certain things.

Yea like the fucking military.  So much fucking waste in military but republicans give the military a blank check...  Amazing what 43 million dollar natural gas station in Afghanistan can do...  Where they had to spend most of the money converting vehicles to natural gas in order to use the damn thing...

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-burns-43-million-to-build-gas-station-in-afghanistan-2015-11-02

 

But no let us just cut social programs in USA and let the military waste all the fucking money in the world.  I am so fucking proud of all the money wasted by our military.  If your against it then you are a fucking traitor and a pussy!