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Forums - Politics Discussion - Trump's tax proposal: raise taxes on the poor, give to the rich

Great, if true.



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Final-Fan said:
numberwang said:

The main point is that the poor & lower middle class (about 50% of Americans) pay no income tax and hence can get no tax cuts. High incomes pay most of it, the exact proportions are not relevant, just the principle. The headline claims that the poor will pay more taxes (that is false) or get no benefits from Trump's tax cuts (misleadingbecause they already have 100% tax cuts). I am not talking about morality just basic understanding how a progressive tax works.

WHY DID YOU INCLUDE THAT GRAPH IN YOUR POST? 

I am numberwang.



Machiavellian said:
LurkerJ said:

This is not the type of tax I am discusing with him though. I am talking about taxing the rich after they've died, which is total BS.

They are not taxing the rich after they die, they are taxing the people who inherit the fortune.  Its no different then the gift tax when you get a bonus or something of value from your job.  I know if I have to pay those taxes which I do for ever bonus or vacation house giving to me as a perk from my company then rich people who inherit a crap load of money should also pay their share as well.  Maybe they donot have to pay as much but getting rid of it all together, no way unless they take away the bonus tax and other taxes on personal gain.

The issue is that that money has already been taxed. Taxing it again because they die and pass it along is just stupid.



Final-Fan said:
Superman4 said:

The only way to be fair in collecting taxes is to implement a flat tax. Taxing based on income is discriminatory. A flat 11-13, even 20% tax for everyone with no tax deductions would allow us to provide full medical coverage and probably college education for everyone on top of fund the government. The rich would pay more since 20% of a million is more than 20% of 60K. The low and middle class would still benefit from no healthcare costs or tuition.  I will never be for taxing money already taxed just because you die and honestly cant think of how anyone else would be either. It is a way for the goverment to take wealth away from successfull people and hurt the future generations of that family. Its essentially a spite tax.

It depends on what you mean by fair, but sure, for a certain type of "fair" a flat tax is the best way.  I'm against it because it does more harm to people than a progressive tax, that falls less heavily on people who must necessarily spend a bigger proportion of their income on basic survival.  (Food etc.)  In general, my ideal is in trying to spread the pain fairly rather than trying for mathematical equality.  But I can appreciate that people have different viewpoints on this question. 

Anyway, are you also against sales taxes on the grounds that they also take money from you that you are already paying income taxes on?  Property taxes too?  We should go down to exactly one type of tax to make sure we don't overlap the payments—that is your position? 

P.S.  I'm skeptical of 20% being as revenue positive as you suggest, let alone 11-13% being revenue neutral.  But that's really off topic so I would prefer not to get into that before our current discussion is exhausted.  However, I will add that I'm completely in favor of simplifying the tax code.  But simplification is to be found in eliminatng deductions, credits, etc. rather than the basic structure, whether it's flat or progressive. 

I do not believe we should have to pay property tax, if we own the land outright why do I still need to pay the goverment? Sales tax is fine but I dont believe in extra sales tax based on type of goods. Take Tobacco and gas for instance. A simple sales tax on all goods would be better IMO. 



As I get older, I begin to realize that there is on way to trust anyone in politics. What our country needs is a better way to hold people liable for their promises to the people that put them in office.

With the way things currently are (or so it seems), people running for president can just say whatever they think the people want to hear in order to gain their vote, with no repercussions for not committing to any of their proposals.

What's the point, then?



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Final-Fan said:

That's terrible.  It's as if there was a 150% income tax bracket (as some people act like there is in these discussions).  I'm totally in favor of eliminating disincentives like that, though the preferred method of reform would no doubt differ among different people.  I stand by my position that this flies completely in the face of the intended design of our tax law.  And, as you point out, it's not tax law that's mainly creating this situation. 

(While I would need additional convincing that the most extreme outcome they cite is realistic, the overall picture is dire enough even taking a big grain of salt—no, a truckload.)

It was the same deal back in the UK. My grandmother was a cleaner in the local school, working part-time on minimum wage. The school wanted to boost her pay, not by much, but a couple pounds per hour. She fought against it, because it would lose her qualification for a number of programs she relied on, and thus would be on the net worse off.

I can't give you exact numbers, because this is going off my own memory from about 12 years ago.

I imagine this is part of the reason why so many Walmart and McDonald's employees end up living on welfare. It doesn't make much sense to go for a promotion or put in the extra 10 hours per week, etc, it'll make you worse off.

The simplest solution would be a gradual degradation of payouts. I'm a big proponent of collapsing all welfare programs into a universal basic income which takes the form of a tax credit, and a very high initial tax rate. For example:

$12,000 ubi refundable credit, first $24k taxed at 50%. Next $1k taxed at 0%, then whatever tax system you want to apply from $25k onwards.

So, if you have zero income, you receive the full $12k. If you have a job that pays $12k, your net income would be $18k, and when you earn $24k you'll receive nothing. You get $1k of "bliss" with no tax, and then from $25k it's whatever.

All these numbers I chose for the simplicity of the math. The average social security payout is a little above $12k, so it would probably be replaced by the UBI, too.



Superman4 said:
Final-Fan said:

It depends on what you mean by fair, but sure, for a certain type of "fair" a flat tax is the best way.  I'm against it because it does more harm to people than a progressive tax, that falls less heavily on people who must necessarily spend a bigger proportion of their income on basic survival.  (Food etc.)  In general, my ideal is in trying to spread the pain fairly rather than trying for mathematical equality.  But I can appreciate that people have different viewpoints on this question. 

Anyway, are you also against sales taxes on the grounds that they also take money from you that you are already paying income taxes on?  Property taxes too?  We should go down to exactly one type of tax to make sure we don't overlap the payments—that is your position? 

P.S.  I'm skeptical of 20% being as revenue positive as you suggest, let alone 11-13% being revenue neutral.  But that's really off topic so I would prefer not to get into that before our current discussion is exhausted.  However, I will add that I'm completely in favor of simplifying the tax code.  But simplification is to be found in eliminatng deductions, credits, etc. rather than the basic structure, whether it's flat or progressive. 

I do not believe we should have to pay property tax, if we own the land outright why do I still need to pay the goverment? Sales tax is fine but I dont believe in extra sales tax based on type of goods. Take Tobacco and gas for instance. A simple sales tax on all goods would be better IMO. 

But you have to pay sales tax with the same money that you also pay income taxes on!  How is that conceptually not the same sort of double taxation that you claim as one of the main reasons for your opposition to the estate tax? 

IMO it can sometimes make sense to tax particular things at different amounts, although I think this power should be used sparingly.  Take gas and tobacco, for example.  The gas tax is devoted to helping pay for the roads most of that gas is being used on and other transportation related things, but I would welcome debate over whether it's really necessary to have a special tax for that reason.  Tobacco is if I am not mistaken taxed specifically to discourage the use of that product.  Additionally, it is judged to come with a high cost to society so we tax it not only to discourage it but also to get back some of the cost that society is saddled with as a result of its use. 



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SamuelRSmith said:

It was the same deal back in the UK. My grandmother was a cleaner in the local school, working part-time on minimum wage. The school wanted to boost her pay, not by much, but a couple pounds per hour. She fought against it, because it would lose her qualification for a number of programs she relied on, and thus would be on the net worse off.

I can't give you exact numbers, because this is going off my own memory from about 12 years ago.

I imagine this is part of the reason why so many Walmart and McDonald's employees end up living on welfare. It doesn't make much sense to go for a promotion or put in the extra 10 hours per week, etc, it'll make you worse off.

The simplest solution would be a gradual degradation of payouts. I'm a big proponent of collapsing all welfare programs into a universal basic income which takes the form of a tax credit, and a very high initial tax rate. For example:

$12,000 ubi refundable credit, first $24k taxed at 50%. Next $1k taxed at 0%, then whatever tax system you want to apply from $25k onwards.

So, if you have zero income, you receive the full $12k. If you have a job that pays $12k, your net income would be $18k, and when you earn $24k you'll receive nothing. You get $1k of "bliss" with no tax, and then from $25k it's whatever.

All these numbers I chose for the simplicity of the math. The average social security payout is a little above $12k, so it would probably be replaced by the UBI, too.

I do like the concept, but the main reason I'm skeptical about ideas such as your UBI is that I'm concerned about the severity of fraud.  I happen to think that welfare fraud is an overblown issue in some circles, but it would be different if every living citizen of the United States was due $230 per week.  But maybe I'm underestimating the power of American bureaucracy! 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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numberwang said:
Final-Fan said:

I believe you'll find that "pay no taxes" isn't generally true of this group when you consider things like payroll taxes.  I don't believe that income taxes should be viewed in a vacuum, disregarding other taxes and their combined overall impact, but you may disagree. 

Yes, poor and lower middle clas still pay a lot of other taxes like sales, fuel taxes, government fees and indirectly property tax through their rent. Death and taxes are for sure. The article still does not explain how poor will pay higher taxes if none of these changes effect them (income/corporate/inheritance).

https://assets.donaldjtrump.com/trump-tax-reform.pdf

I believe that document is outdated. Here is the new proposal:

https://www.speaker.gov/sites/speaker.house.gov/files/Tax%20Framework.pdf

One of the differences, for example, is the zero tax bracket is about half of what it was in the original Trump plan that you are going off of. 

(thats numberwang)

Oh, and heres a graph showing how the richer you are, the more this tax change helps you, not just in raw numbers, but proportionally:



Superman4 said:
Machiavellian said:

They are not taxing the rich after they die, they are taxing the people who inherit the fortune.  Its no different then the gift tax when you get a bonus or something of value from your job.  I know if I have to pay those taxes which I do for ever bonus or vacation house giving to me as a perk from my company then rich people who inherit a crap load of money should also pay their share as well.  Maybe they donot have to pay as much but getting rid of it all together, no way unless they take away the bonus tax and other taxes on personal gain.

The issue is that that money has already been taxed. Taxing it again because they die and pass it along is just stupid.

No, that money was taxed for the person who made it.  It was not taxed for the people who are receiving it.  The people who are receiving it did nothing to make it so just like any personal gain you receive you should be taxed.  I am all for getting rid of the estate tax but only if as I stated, getting rid of bonus or personal gain that I am taxed as well.  If not they I do not see where I should accept any special privillage for the rich.  You can argue this all day but in the end, the people who are inheriting an estate did not contribute to the gain and thus should be tax just like everyone else.