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Forums - Politics Discussion - Trump's tax proposal: raise taxes on the poor, give to the rich

Tax increases affect middleclass income more way more than it affects rich income. This is self evident because having less money to begin with makes this the case. Period. I just can''t condone. paying more taxes as a middle class earner when the rich are trying to pay less. And remember we are talking about percentages here. For the impaired, I have prepared a word problem to help illustrate this:

Worker One is paid $1000 and is asked to pay 20% in taxes. He has $800 left to survive him until his next pay.
Worker Two is paid $10,000 and is asked to pay 30% in taxes. He is left with $7000 to survive (lol) until next pay.

Worker Two is a douche. He thinks he pays to much in taxes and wants to pay 5% less and think that Worker One should pay 5% more of his pay to support his cut (even though that is mathematically impossible). Worker Two buys politician and changes the tax code. Now:

Worker One is paid $1000 and is asked to pay 25% in taxes. Now he only has $750 to survive until next pay.
Worker Two is paid $10000 and is asked to pay 25% in taxes. Now he gets $7500 to survive on until next pay.

Tax revenue has decreased by $450 and Worker ones income has been reduced in a more real world manner than Worker two income has been increased.

In fantasy world people will say that its stealing to tax the rich but in reality the poor has to pay for it (never calling it stealing) and revenue is decreased without lowering spending. This small example shows how to explode the deficit while making the majority of your people poorer at the same time



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CosmicSex said:

Tax increases affect middleclass income more way more than it affects rich income. This is self evident because having less money to begin with makes this the case. Period. I just can''t condone. paying more taxes as a middle class earner when the rich are trying to pay less. And remember we are talking about percentages here. For the impaired, I have prepared a word problem to help illustrate this:

Worker One is paid $1000 and is asked to pay 20% in taxes. He has $800 left to survive him until his next pay.
Worker Two is paid $10,000 and is asked to pay 30% in taxes. He is left with $7000 to survive (lol) until next pay.

Worker Two is a douche. He thinks he pays to much in taxes and wants to pay 5% less and think that Worker One should pay 5% more of his pay to support his cut (even though that is mathematically impossible). Worker Two buys politician and changes the tax code. Now:

Worker One is paid $1000 and is asked to pay 25% in taxes. Now he only has $750 to survive until next pay.
Worker Two is paid $10000 and is asked to pay 25% in taxes. Now he gets $7500 to survive on until next pay.

Tax revenue has decreased by $450 and Worker ones income has been reduced in a more real world manner than Worker two income has been increased.

In fantasy world people will say that its stealing to tax the rich but in reality the poor has to pay for it (never calling it stealing) and revenue is decreased without lowering spending. This small example shows how to explode the deficit while making the majority of your people poorer at the same time

To use figures more accurately representing this tax plan:

Worker One is paid $1000 and is asked to pay 20% in taxes. Now, under Trump's "Everybody saves!" plan, he "only" has to pay 19.8% in taxes, saving him a whopping $2 per paycheck.
Worker Two is paid $10000 and is asked to pay 30% in taxes. Now, under Trump's "Everybody saves!" play, he only has to pay 21.9% in taxes, saving him "only" $810 per paycheck.

Pretty much everybody is getting an infinitesimally small benefit in terms of after-tax income, except the top 5% who are going to be making up to 10% more.

PS: I'm not trying to argue with you, just adding to what you are saying.



sundin13 said:

Got you and thanks.  Your model is even scarier because it total explodes the deficit.  This whole thing feels like a hit job because in my understanding things like the proposed new regulation of 401 actually increases revenue and increases taxes.  In my mind that was a way to increase taxes on middleclass to pay for the massive cut to the weathly. I just don't see who we are gonna pay for this when no one has called for any cuts.  Nothing about the tax cut plan seems solvent. 



sundin13 said:
CosmicSex said:

Tax increases affect middleclass income more way more than it affects rich income. This is self evident because having less money to begin with makes this the case. Period. I just can''t condone. paying more taxes as a middle class earner when the rich are trying to pay less. And remember we are talking about percentages here. For the impaired, I have prepared a word problem to help illustrate this:

Worker One is paid $1000 and is asked to pay 20% in taxes. He has $800 left to survive him until his next pay.
Worker Two is paid $10,000 and is asked to pay 30% in taxes. He is left with $7000 to survive (lol) until next pay.

Worker Two is a douche. He thinks he pays to much in taxes and wants to pay 5% less and think that Worker One should pay 5% more of his pay to support his cut (even though that is mathematically impossible). Worker Two buys politician and changes the tax code. Now:

Worker One is paid $1000 and is asked to pay 25% in taxes. Now he only has $750 to survive until next pay.
Worker Two is paid $10000 and is asked to pay 25% in taxes. Now he gets $7500 to survive on until next pay.

Tax revenue has decreased by $450 and Worker ones income has been reduced in a more real world manner than Worker two income has been increased.

In fantasy world people will say that its stealing to tax the rich but in reality the poor has to pay for it (never calling it stealing) and revenue is decreased without lowering spending. This small example shows how to explode the deficit while making the majority of your people poorer at the same time

To use figures more accurately representing this tax plan:

Worker One is paid $1000 and is asked to pay 20% in taxes. Now, under Trump's "Everybody saves!" plan, he "only" has to pay 19.8% in taxes, saving him a whopping $2 per paycheck.
Worker Two is paid $10000 and is asked to pay 30% in taxes. Now, under Trump's "Everybody saves!" play, he only has to pay 21.9% in taxes, saving him "only" $810 per paycheck.

Pretty much everybody is getting an infinitesimally small benefit in terms of after-tax income, except the top 5% who are going to be making up to 10% more.

PS: I'm not trying to argue with you, just adding to what you are saying.

How much does worker one get back at the end of the year? How much does worker two get back at the end of the year?



Final-Fan said:
Superman4 said:

I do not believe we should have to pay property tax, if we own the land outright why do I still need to pay the goverment? Sales tax is fine but I dont believe in extra sales tax based on type of goods. Take Tobacco and gas for instance. A simple sales tax on all goods would be better IMO. 

But you have to pay sales tax with the same money that you also pay income taxes on!  How is that conceptually not the same sort of double taxation that you claim as one of the main reasons for your opposition to the estate tax? 

IMO it can sometimes make sense to tax particular things at different amounts, although I think this power should be used sparingly.  Take gas and tobacco, for example.  The gas tax is devoted to helping pay for the roads most of that gas is being used on and other transportation related things, but I would welcome debate over whether it's really necessary to have a special tax for that reason.  Tobacco is if I am not mistaken taxed specifically to discourage the use of that product.  Additionally, it is judged to come with a high cost to society so we tax it not only to discourage it but also to get back some of the cost that society is saddled with as a result of its use. 

I really dont like any tax but understand its needed to some extent . Sales tax at a fixed rate would be ok. In California the sales tax fluctuates so much from city to city its insane. Also, that "gas" tax that is supposed to go to roads doesnt end up making it to them .  IMO If I want to sell a product that people want and knwo the risks of using, the goverment should not be able to tax me out of business. 



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Machiavellian said:
Superman4 said:

The issue is that that money has already been taxed. Taxing it again because they die and pass it along is just stupid.

No, that money was taxed for the person who made it.  It was not taxed for the people who are receiving it.  The people who are receiving it did nothing to make it so just like any personal gain you receive you should be taxed.  I am all for getting rid of the estate tax but only if as I stated, getting rid of bonus or personal gain that I am taxed as well.  If not they I do not see where I should accept any special privillage for the rich.  You can argue this all day but in the end, the people who are inheriting an estate did not contribute to the gain and thus should be tax just like everyone else.

Bonuses and overtime shouldnt be taxed any different than basic income. Why should the goverment get a bonus because of my work? We have way too many taxes and far too many politicians. We pay these people 100K+ each per year with all of the money they say is for roads and infrastructure. How many taxes do I need for roads? 90% on them in California suck and we clearly dont use tax money for what it was initially slated for.  Property tax is designed to allow the goverment to continually own your property. If you fail to pay they take your property. That money goes to infrstructure about as much as miy paycheck goes to cocaine and hookers....none, although some of it probably should. 



Superman4 said:
Final-Fan said:

But you have to pay sales tax with the same money that you also pay income taxes on!  How is that conceptually not the same sort of double taxation that you claim as one of the main reasons for your opposition to the estate tax? 

IMO it can sometimes make sense to tax particular things at different amounts, although I think this power should be used sparingly.  Take gas and tobacco, for example.  The gas tax is devoted to helping pay for the roads most of that gas is being used on and other transportation related things, but I would welcome debate over whether it's really necessary to have a special tax for that reason.  Tobacco is if I am not mistaken taxed specifically to discourage the use of that product.  Additionally, it is judged to come with a high cost to society so we tax it not only to discourage it but also to get back some of the cost that society is saddled with as a result of its use. 

I really dont like any tax but understand its needed to some extent . Sales tax at a fixed rate would be ok. In California the sales tax fluctuates so much from city to city its insane. Also, that "gas" tax that is supposed to go to roads doesnt end up making it to them .  IMO If I want to sell a product that people want and knwo the risks of using, the goverment should not be able to tax me out of business. 

So why is a "double tax" of income + sales taxes OK, but a double tax of income + estate tax isn't OK? 

If you really want, we can talk about how much the gas tax actually goes to roads, but that would be a more detail oriented discussion because it's about evidence rather than concepts.  It's clearly false that "none" of it goes to roads, but you could argue that just as much gets spent on roads regardless of whether there is a gas tax (any gas tax money just results in less general fund money for roads).  We have a huge roadway infrastructure so just because you see potholes doesn't mean nothing is being done, but perhaps not ENOUGH.  After all, we wouldn't be able to complain about road construction if they weren't doing anything! 

As for your other comment, the next thing we can talk about is the problem of "the tragedy of the commons" and whether government regulation is an effective and acceptable way to stop it.  Cigarette smoking is not exactly the same thing, but it's a related concept. 

Last edited by Final-Fan - on 27 October 2017

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spurgeonryan said:
You mean the rich who account for a majority of the taxes paid in the united states are actually getting a break?

Amazing.

Have fun piling on that 1.5 trillion on debt.  Conservative with morals but not with money spent.  Anything to satisfy their rich donor overlords.  Don't worry though... Republicans can't govern worth a shit because almost all their plans/bills are shit.  I have a thread you know...  Republicans haven't passed a major piece of legislation yet. 



I like how everyone in here that is for the tax cuts on rich aren't even rich. What are you guys wannabe sellouts?  You wish that you were rich so you could one day benefit?  You guys are fucking pathetic.



Superman4 said:
StarOcean said:

That's their only defense. Whataboutism. Since they can't defend their Nazi leader, they attack anyone else. They're basically saying, "Since Person A broke the rules, it's okay for ME to break the rules." Which isn't how the world works but it the crux of their political ideology. It's weak and pathetic, like Trump. 

They seem to not understand that you can condem more than one group at a time. For example one of the most infuriating things is when I hear people go, "This is what science is focused on? Why do we fund them?" When they see an article about a minor and sometimes stupid study. While ignoring that "science" is not an organization and has millions of people studying different things in each respective branch of said subject. 

Whataboutism is another way of saying "I can't find a way to justify his actions."

Yet the Liberal media and Democrats throw out BS labels like Nazi and Racist to try and drive their point home or paint the President in a bad light. Increasing deportations of illegals and removing DACA doesnt make Trump a racist. Last time I checked their are plenty of white people in this country illegally from other countries. Last I checked Trump also denounced all hate groups including Neo-Nazis and the KKK. The reason Hillary and Obama get pointed out is because the Democrats and Liberals hale them as their gods that do no wrong while crapping from their mouths about Trump and everything they feel he is doing wrong. From a policy standpoint Trump is one of the best Presidents we have had in ages. If he had Obamas ability to speak he would be an amazing President. We have essentially swapped one for the other, one spoke a good game and was poor on execution with bad ideas, the other is bad with speaking but has great ideas about what needs to happen. If he had Obamas speaking ability he would have no problem getting everything he wants, ACA would be gone, Travel ban would be in place etc. 

All of that said though, the media is making the US look like a bunch of idiots, not Trump. The constant spin from companies like CNN, MSNBC, Wapo etc. get their base all riled up and create problems out of nothing. Those companies need to either report the news as it happens without interjecting their opinions or start off each show with "This is our opinion on what just happened". 

I just shat my pants at work.