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Forums - Politics Discussion - Trump bans EPA employees from giving social media updates.

DonFerrari said:
Scoobes said:

You'd be surprised what's posted on science based social media sites. You obviously don't follow it. 

What are you classifying as social media sites?

Because as far as I know they are the kind of facebook where people aren't even capable of reading a common article.

Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn etc. There are a lot of different people on these sites. 

They each have individuals and groups dedicated to the pursuit of science and discussion of different fields.

On facebook alone there are groups of scientists dedicated to Bioinformatics for Next Gen Sequencing, Biochemical Engineering, there's even a group dedicated to the CRISPR/Cas-9 enzyme. Some of the more popular or mainstream ones would include Brian Cox, Carin Bondar or I Fucking Love Science (IFLS). All the major companies involved in science research also have their own dedicated pages. 

On Twitter these sames scientists tweet about their work or comment on the latest advances. 

LinkedIn is a bit more obvious as it's a professional networking site but you get the idea. 



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It frightens you that some people have a different opinion to you? WTF, are you cowering under your bed? Lol.

 

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captain carot said:
Baalzamon said:
It is also very frustrating that they will utilize current temperature data for a single year (or even a few years) to justify global warming. Current weather has WAY more factors than just CO2 driving it (la nina/el nino cycles, sun, numerous other ocean cycles), and quite frankly, individual years should NOT be utilized to justify the problem we have with global warming.
But this is exactly what people do. They will broadcast that this year was the warmest on record, and then they have to add in that this is a result of us humans. That last part of the statement makes it political.

Well, current global warming is related to humans and data is not only related to one year.

 

What makes it political is that it affects us all and for the most part people that neither work to global warming nor can do much against it by themselves.

 

And about cheap, 'clean' coal and srtuff like that, official EU study: Modern and 'clean coal generates cost in the european health system between 14 and 43 billion € per year. And between 2.3 and 6.4 billion in Germany per year.

That is only one factor of many from mining damage to air pollution.

Now, CO² has many indirect side effects, like oceans getting more sour very fast which is a big issue for everything with carbonate structures (corals, mussels...) which makes it a major issue for everything waterrelated which again makes it an issue for humans.

So even if carbon dioxide had no effect on the climate (it has, question is how much it really is) there would be many reasons for getting away from coal and oil.

You completely missed the point, which is why I don't argue about this with people.

When reports come in that 2016 was the hottest on record yet again, this is then utilized as a scare tactic for global warming. One individual year.

I'm not saying CO2 has no impact. I'm saying I think there are other factors at play that have substantially more impact. The reason I say that really comes down to the 1930's through the 1970's, when global temps stayed virtually flat. If one matches that with CO2, they will notice there was no flattening or decrease during that time frame. In fact, CO2 continued to increase. Like I stated above, I am not in any way saying I disagree that CO2 has any effect. I'm disagreeing (denying if you will) that it has nearly the impact scientists continue spouting, as I think there are other major factors at work that make a much larger difference.



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Scoobes said:

You really don't understand how state funded science works.

Unless it's DARPA or some other defense spending or a private entity owns the IP for the data, then you have every right to know (up to you if you're happy with giving up that right). Public research thrives on being an open platform and even private companies will present their findings at major conferences and spread the word on social media although not all the proprietary details (at least until a patent is filed). Having a robust social media policy is not the same as a complete gag order.

LOL, what right ? 

Does the constitution guarantee that the government have to share research results ? No 

Does any federal law exist that says that the government have to disclose any research results ? No 

Feelings don't help in this argument, only facts matter. 

should be =/= actual 



Baalzamon said:
captain carot said:

Well, current global warming is related to humans and data is not only related to one year.

 

What makes it political is that it affects us all and for the most part people that neither work to global warming nor can do much against it by themselves.

 

And about cheap, 'clean' coal and srtuff like that, official EU study: Modern and 'clean coal generates cost in the european health system between 14 and 43 billion € per year. And between 2.3 and 6.4 billion in Germany per year.

That is only one factor of many from mining damage to air pollution.

Now, CO² has many indirect side effects, like oceans getting more sour very fast which is a big issue for everything with carbonate structures (corals, mussels...) which makes it a major issue for everything waterrelated which again makes it an issue for humans.

So even if carbon dioxide had no effect on the climate (it has, question is how much it really is) there would be many reasons for getting away from coal and oil.

You completely missed the point, which is why I don't argue about this with people.

When reports come in that 2016 was the hottest on record yet again, this is then utilized as a scare tactic for global warming. One individual year.

I'm not saying CO2 has no impact. I'm saying I think there are other factors at play that have substantially more impact. The reason I say that really comes down to the 1930's through the 1970's, when global temps stayed virtually flat. If one matches that with CO2, they will notice there was no flattening or decrease during that time frame. In fact, CO2 continued to increase. Like I stated above, I am not in any way saying I disagree that CO2 has any effect. I'm disagreeing (denying if you will) that it has nearly the impact scientists continue spouting, as I think there are other major factors at work that make a much larger difference.

 

Except it did rise slowly like the carbon emission. Don't forget that before the seventies the world population was roughly half of what it is today. Records for millions of years have shown that temperature follows carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere. Thank god for the oxigen isotopes on the south pole. You can make a conclusion on climate change over a period of 30 years and the last 30 years have shown a rapid growth in mean temperature on a global scale. Considering the sun isn't heating up and the UN, EU, China and even American research has proven a direct link between greenhouse emissions  (CO2 being the largest by far) and mean global temperature there isn't any other big factor at hand. The north and south pole don't move very fast these days. The atmosphere isn't changing significantly other than himans polluting the living shit out of it. Neither is the sun or the core of the earth heating up.

 

But so inform me which other and bigger factors are at play. 

 

Temp and C02 since industrial revolution

https://www.google.nl/search?q=does+co2+follow+temperature&client=ms-android-tmobile-nl&prmd=sinv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiOzMPJseDRAhUqIcAKHZdxA5wQ_AUICCgC&biw=360&bih=559#tbm=isch&q=co2+and+temperature+graph&imgrc=nTfsGEnCU9FqPM%3A



Please excuse my (probally) poor grammar

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DonFerrari said:
Puppyroach said:

 If taxpayer money goes into public research for example, of course the results should be shared with the masses, for examples in cases of environmental research, infrastructure research and so on. This is the attempt by an administration to control information that belongs to the public. I'm not talking about employees having the right to bash the government, but rather their obligation to share public information.

Regarding your second part: generally, government entities are more complex and ineffective than private counterparts (with some exceptions, the private health care and insurance system in the US seems like the most ineffective system I've ever seen). The reason they are less effective is because their job is to work for the people, not s small group of private shareholders. Yes, it would likely be more effective to run a country like a company, but that's because a company is not a democracy, it is rather more like a dictatorship where you can also increase your power by owning more of the vote. That works for a company but is the opposite to a democracy.

So you are confusing research boycote/censorship with social media use to divulgue it? Yep, not a overreach.

Nope, they are more inefficent because public servers don't hold themselves to a commitment to be profitable, so they accept a lot of pratices that no sane company would.

And democracy in several ways can be seem as the dictatorship of the majority, and that majority very often may be very wrong. At the time Einstein made his discoveries probably 99,99999999% of people would say he was wrong and in a democracy he would have been overuled.

Of course they should be able to announce findings via social media.

And it should be a given that public departments shouldn't aim to make a profit but rather use the taxpayer money in such a way that cost are kept low putting a lesser demand on taxes.

And no, a democracy can never be a dictatorship since they are each others opposites. Oppression can occur by the masses towards minorities but that has nothing to do with dictatorship. You must separate forms of governing with structures in society.



Qwark said:
Baalzamon said:

You completely missed the point, which is why I don't argue about this with people.

When reports come in that 2016 was the hottest on record yet again, this is then utilized as a scare tactic for global warming. One individual year.

I'm not saying CO2 has no impact. I'm saying I think there are other factors at play that have substantially more impact. The reason I say that really comes down to the 1930's through the 1970's, when global temps stayed virtually flat. If one matches that with CO2, they will notice there was no flattening or decrease during that time frame. In fact, CO2 continued to increase. Like I stated above, I am not in any way saying I disagree that CO2 has any effect. I'm disagreeing (denying if you will) that it has nearly the impact scientists continue spouting, as I think there are other major factors at work that make a much larger difference.

 

Except it did rise slowly like the carbon emission. Don't forget that before the seventies the world population was roughly half of what it is today. Records for millions of years have shown that temperature follows carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere. Thank god for the oxigen isotopes on the south pole. You can make a conclusion on climate change over a period of 30 years and the last 30 years have shown a rapid growth in mean temperature on a global scale. Considering the sun isn't heating up and the UN, EU, China and even American research has proven a direct link between greenhouse emissions  (CO2 being the largest by far) and mean global temperature there isn't any other big factor at hand. The north and south pole don't move very fast these days. The atmosphere isn't changing significantly other than himans polluting the living shit out of it. Neither is the sun or the core of the earth heating up.

 

But so inform me which other and bigger factors are at play. 

 

Temp and C02 since industrial revolution

https://www.google.nl/search?q=does+co2+follow+temperature&client=ms-android-tmobile-nl&prmd=sinv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiOzMPJseDRAhUqIcAKHZdxA5wQ_AUICCgC&biw=360&bih=559#tbm=isch&q=co2+and+temperature+graph&imgrc=nTfsGEnCU9FqPM%3A

I see no statistical rise in temperatures on that graph from the 30s into the 70s.

Me saying there are other factors doesn't imply I know the factors. I'm not in any way expertly knowledgeable on the subject. It implies I can see that graph very clearly showing for 40 years, SOMETHING clearly had a much larger impact than CO2 on the temp.



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Scoobes said:
DonFerrari said:

What are you classifying as social media sites?

Because as far as I know they are the kind of facebook where people aren't even capable of reading a common article.

Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn etc. There are a lot of different people on these sites. 

They each have individuals and groups dedicated to the pursuit of science and discussion of different fields.

On facebook alone there are groups of scientists dedicated to Bioinformatics for Next Gen Sequencing, Biochemical Engineering, there's even a group dedicated to the CRISPR/Cas-9 enzyme. Some of the more popular or mainstream ones would include Brian Cox, Carin Bondar or I Fucking Love Science (IFLS). All the major companies involved in science research also have their own dedicated pages. 

On Twitter these sames scientists tweet about their work or comment on the latest advances. 

LinkedIn is a bit more obvious as it's a professional networking site but you get the idea. 

Those aren't sites... I though you were talking about something else. So you are basically saying some pages inside the social media, ok.

Have this decree ordered that they can't participate in discussion or that they can't release information by themselves? There is a big difference.

And the place for major scientific discussion are usually universities, companies, simposiuns, etc. Not twitter.

Puppyroach said:
DonFerrari said:

So you are confusing research boycote/censorship with social media use to divulgue it? Yep, not a overreach.

Nope, they are more inefficent because public servers don't hold themselves to a commitment to be profitable, so they accept a lot of pratices that no sane company would.

And democracy in several ways can be seem as the dictatorship of the majority, and that majority very often may be very wrong. At the time Einstein made his discoveries probably 99,99999999% of people would say he was wrong and in a democracy he would have been overuled.

Of course they should be able to announce findings via social media.

And it should be a given that public departments shouldn't aim to make a profit but rather use the taxpayer money in such a way that cost are kept low putting a lesser demand on taxes.

And no, a democracy can never be a dictatorship since they are each others opposites. Oppression can occur by the masses towards minorities but that has nothing to do with dictatorship. You must separate forms of governing with structures in society.

Of course why? They don't own the studies neither the agency. The sovereign power of the agency or the government have the autonomy to dictate who can give information or not.

If you are reving profit as a government unit that money flows back and guess what lighten the burden on the taxes. But since that very simple concept escape the thoughs of bureocrats they just want to throw more money on the agencies and not look at how to make it profitable.

Nope, democracy isn't any direct opposite to dictatorship. Go by the greek phylosophers and democracy is a corrupted version of a "all people government" http://knowledgenuts.com/2013/11/29/prominent-greek-thinkers-actually-hated-democracy/ just to help you initiate on it.



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Baalzamon said:
Qwark said:

 

Except it did rise slowly like the carbon emission. Don't forget that before the seventies the world population was roughly half of what it is today. Records for millions of years have shown that temperature follows carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere. Thank god for the oxigen isotopes on the south pole. You can make a conclusion on climate change over a period of 30 years and the last 30 years have shown a rapid growth in mean temperature on a global scale. Considering the sun isn't heating up and the UN, EU, China and even American research has proven a direct link between greenhouse emissions  (CO2 being the largest by far) and mean global temperature there isn't any other big factor at hand. The north and south pole don't move very fast these days. The atmosphere isn't changing significantly other than himans polluting the living shit out of it. Neither is the sun or the core of the earth heating up.

 

But so inform me which other and bigger factors are at play. 

 

Temp and C02 since industrial revolution

https://www.google.nl/search?q=does+co2+follow+temperature&client=ms-android-tmobile-nl&prmd=sinv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiOzMPJseDRAhUqIcAKHZdxA5wQ_AUICCgC&biw=360&bih=559#tbm=isch&q=co2+and+temperature+graph&imgrc=nTfsGEnCU9FqPM%3A

I see no statistical rise in temperatures on that graph from the 30s into the 70s.

Me saying there are other factors doesn't imply I know the factors. I'm not in any way expertly knowledgeable on the subject. It implies I can see that graph very clearly showing for 40 years, SOMETHING clearly had a much larger impact than CO2 on the temp.

Considering that 0.25 degrees is already a big change for such a short period historically seen. The year 40's where a bit hotter than usual, but that can be traced back towards a hotter than usual El nino and the fact that CO2 didn't rise nearly as fast as it does today. 

 

Another factor you have to weight in is that there where fewer weatherstations in the 40's and they where a lot less accurate. Anyway I think greenhouse gasses and global warming are very much and dominantly related and you think it's a small factor in any case.



Please excuse my (probally) poor grammar

Lawlight said:
And for the record:

http://www.peer.org/news/news-releases/obama-gag-order-on-federal-workers-like-those-under-bush.html

That's equally bad...why does stuff like this get accepted?