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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Switch vs WiiU vs Xbox One vs PS4 (Last Update: January 12, 2017)

superchunk said:

Tegra X1 has 8 cores ... X2/P1 etc has 6 ... I seriously doubt it wil lhave 4 cores as that one devkit rumor stated.

Again, there are quad-core PCs similar or lower in power playing the current-gen games at lower settings now.

It's big.LITTLE configuration for the purpose of being able to switch between 4 lower performing cores for 4 higher performing cores ... 



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fatslob-:O said:

The CPU in the Tegra X1 has higher single threaded performance but lower performance overall since it's 4 vs 8 cores and we don't even know the the Switch will do better ... (I imagine most likely worse) 

Again we still don't know what the memory bandwidth will be so could stop putting in hard numbers and listen to what I have to say ? 

Does the NS have the fan actually integrated into the main unit or is that on the dock itself ? If it's the latter that doesn't help since it's not helping cooling off the processors in the portable unit ... 

Tegra X1 that's in the microconsole which is actively cooled and has constant power supplied from the wall couldn't even outperform last gen consoles on last gen ports, doubt the Switch will be able to do much better in that regard ... 

Yes - I'm basing the 26GB/s off of Tegra's X1 and I don't know what the actual NS will use. However, if the shield used the X1, I highly doubt the NS will end up being lower powered than the shield. I expect all changes they made to be a better SOC.

Yes, the fan as been known for quite some time now and patents from today confirm that it is in the console and how it works. The dock is just plastic and connectors, that Nintendo has verbally confirmed.

The micro-console you're referring to will be lower powered than NS. Nintendo is not going to launch something equal/lower than that. This new Tegra chip may be Maxwell, but it will be more powerful than the X1. I think you won't change your mind regardless of what is read as you can't even accept it has an active cooling mechanism. 

No one is expecting parity. No one is expecting 4K gaming. But this is not Wii 3. This is not a console that is apples to oranges in technical capability. It will come with middleware support from all of the major companies day one. I'm expecting to see all major annual releases announced for in in 2017. Many in January and rest by E3. I then expect, as NS has solid consumer support, that games currently too far into development to get support to be announced. (there is a reason R* always does two major consoles then PC later, its how they plan their resources, they won't create a new team that they have no resourcing for to do NS if it wasn't already in the initial planning... which it likely wasn't for RDR2 as an example)



fatslob-:O said:
superchunk said:

Tegra X1 has 8 cores ... X2/P1 etc has 6 ... I seriously doubt it wil lhave 4 cores as that one devkit rumor stated.

Again, there are quad-core PCs similar or lower in power playing the current-gen games at lower settings now.

It's big.LITTLE configuration for the purpose of being able to switch between 4 lower performing cores for 4 higher performing cores ... 

Yes, and? The Jaguar is more equivalent with the 4 lower cores of X1.



Teeqoz said:

Both the PS4 and the Xbox One uses 7 CPU cores for gaming. The Pascal Tegra X2 is capable of 1.5 Tflops FP16, which is 750 Gflops FP32. If you are presuming that it will be cut down to save power for handheld mode, you will have to go lower than 500 Gflops.

The 7th core is not 100% for games. It is also used for other tasks.

Flops is a pointless metric, it has no direct relationship with power consumption.

DanneSandin said:
Yes! I remember your old thread very fondly! Great to see you taking on the Switch as well!

So... I'm illiterate when it comes to tech, so could someone maybe explain what all of this means? I've heard that the Switch will be similar to the XboxOne in power (when docked), but going by these specs that doesn't seem likely. But I know nothing of these sort of things, so who knows, right? What will the graphics be like? The draw distance? How will this effect AI and everything else?


It has about half the capability of the Xbox One, even if the specs tell us it's even less than that. - Maxwell does have an efficiency edge over Graphics Core Next.
And Denver is nothing to sneeze at.
With that in mind, there is diminishing returns everytime you double your graphics quality, so the Switch should be able to seem like it can get close enough to the Xbox One if it maintains a moderate resolution.

DanneSandin said:
Teeqoz said:

Graphical power might be about half an Xbox One.

So it will look half as good as Xbox One? Isn't that kinda what Wii U already does?

The Wii U is closer to the Xbox 360 and Playstation 3, it usually has better lighting and texturing thanks to the better GPU and more memory though.

Puppyroach said:
Considering Nintendo´s insane tallent of producing high-quality Graphics even on underpowered systems like the Wii, they will likely compete with MSony in that department with the Swith despite having lower performance in the system.

Nintendo doesn't really make graphical-powerhouse games on underpowered hardware.
Nintendo gets away with what it does because the models it uses are fairly light on polys and don't need things like subsurface scattering, tessellation and tons of mapping and shader effects.

Nintendo do have some amazing art direction though, even low-quality assets seem to seamlessly fit in, mostly thanks to the fact Nintendo doesn't push for realism. - That's a good thing, it gets me excited to see what they can do with more modern hardware capabilities.

DanneSandin said:

The question is, for how long will the Switch get ports? Soon enough the Pro and Scorpio will be the standards, which means that NS will slip even further away from being competable with most games released. That kinda has me a bit worried actually.

Depends on how successfull the hardware is.

If it's a runaway success, then developers will likely take notice and port more games.
I'm hoping Nintendo releases a version of the switch one day, that ditches all the mobile stuff, but retains the same game library etc'.

superchunk said:
So I saw this post in GAF : http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=226082642&postcount=4058
It details the GPD WIN portable device. What is remarkable about this device is that :
1) it is less powerful than rumored NS
2) it plays Witcher 3, Rise of the Tomb Raider, GTA V, Fallout 4, etc. (see gaf link for videos or hit youtube)

These are low quality but it shows the scale that 3rd parties can use with the right technically sufficient hardware.

The Atom X7 z8700 should be able to beat the Tegra in most CPU tasks, but Tegra should win in GPU tasks, no question. - Anandtech seems to back that up when comparing Surface to Shield.

But we need to put these chips into perspective, they are low-end chips by PC standards.

fatslob-:O said:

I'll wait until more tech journalists insist that such is true ... 

That being said, the Maxwell microarchitecture is still arguably more advanced from a feature set standpoint than the Volcanic Islands microarchitecture featured in the HD twins. Conservative rasterization and fragment shader execution ordering are huge selling points for optimizations on the Switch. Other enhancements to functionality includes target independent multisampling, coverage to color conversion, post-depth coverage and multisample coverage override ... 

If Switch were using shrinked Maxwell then it would be too sad to be the case since SHIELD console struggled with ports of native sub-HD twin games like Metal Gear Rising and Resident Evil 5 LOL ... 

Arguably? Nah. It most certainly *is* more advanced.
Maxwell is an amazing microarchitecture, Pascal just refined it and took advantage of clock room.

But can it beat a GPU when developers are building games to take advantage of the various strength's and weakness's of Graphics Core Next? We know that there are a few edge cases where nVidia hardware tends to fold and AMD's hardware, shines. - How will that translate on the Switch remains to be seen.

superchunk said:

CPU is better. The Jaguar CPU is a low-end x86 mobile chip. There are plenty of devices with just ARM A57s in them that show they are better than a Jaguar CPU. A57 is the min chip in the NS CPU though it may actually have A73 as well.

Links? Intrigued. I would guess that a Quad-core arrangement of A57's would beat a Quad-core arrangement of Jaguar.
However... Jaguar isn't arranged in a Quad-core configuration in the consoles.
8x Jaguar Cores should be roughly equivalent to a Haswell Dual-Core running at 3ghz, which places it faster than Core M which in-turn beats out Tegra in CPU tasks.

Plus the Xbox One has a larger CPU performance edge than the 9% clock advantage entails when compared to the PS4 thanks to the eSRAM and DDR3 memory subsystem (Aka. Lower latency) which has translated to real-world gains.
Not only that but the Playstation 4 Pro and Xbox One S as well as Scorpio take it up a notch again.



superchunk said:

LPDDR4 is better than DDR3 in the Xbox One. The difference is that NS will have 3.2GB vs 5GB avail for games and running at 26GB/s vs XboxOne's 68GB/s. This is why I say they are comparable. (PS4 has better GDDR4 as well as faster) However, in the long-haul of game develpment, PCs can run any current AAA game at low to mid-settings on just 2GB of RAM in the GPU. NS will be fine in this area.
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/samsung-lpddr4-mobile-ram-2015,28260.html

No it's not.
Just because it is based on DDR4 technology... Doesn't make it better than DDR3.

DDR1 can be faster than GDDR5, it depends how wide you wish to take it, The Xbox One has a significantly wider memory bus than the switch could ever possibly hope to have and thus has the advantage by default.

As for the PC... You forget that  games use the GPU memory PLUS the system memory. You can't just take a 2Gb GPU and think the entire game is run on that... It doesn't. Often games will take Gigabytes of System memory as well.

Also PS4 has GDDR5. Not GDDR4.

The Switch is held back by it's memory sub-system, it is the weakest part of it IMHO.

superchunk said:

The X1 is a better CPU than Jaguar. Yes, Nintendo will tweak it so it may end up being lower powered, that is true.

Nintendo won't be tweaking anything. They aren't allowed to unless they have a license.
They can only "suggest" things to nVidia.

Same goes for Microsoft and Sony, they aren't allowed to look at the chips that power those consoles, only make suggestions.

superchunk said:

Tegra X1 has 8 cores ... X2/P1 etc has 6 ... I seriously doubt it wil lhave 4 cores as that one devkit rumor stated.

Again, there are quad-core PCs similar or lower in power playing the current-gen games at lower settings now.

Nope. Big.Little.
Atom X7 z8700 can give Tegra a good run for it's money anyway.
An Atom x7 Z8700 verses an 8-core Jaguar with a Radeon 7770 GPU would bend over the Atom and call it sally. No contest. Not even in the same league.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

superchunk said:

Yes - I'm basing the 26GB/s off of Tegra's X1 and I don't know what the actual NS will use. However, if the shield used the X1, I highly doubt the NS will end up being lower powered than the shield. I expect all changes they made to be a better SOC.

Yes, the fan as been known for quite some time now and patents from today confirm that it is in the console and how it works. The dock is just plastic and connectors, that Nintendo has verbally confirmed.

The micro-console you're referring to will be lower powered than NS. Nintendo is not going to launch something equal/lower than that. This new Tegra chip may be Maxwell, but it will be more powerful than the X1. I think you won't change your mind regardless of what is read as you can't even accept it has an active cooling mechanism. 

No one is expecting parity. No one is expecting 4K gaming. But this is not Wii 3. This is not a console that is apples to oranges in technical capability. It will come with middleware support from all of the major companies day one. I'm expecting to see all major annual releases announced for in in 2017. Many in January and rest by E3. I then expect, as NS has solid consumer support, that games currently too far into development to get support to be announced. (there is a reason R* always does two major consoles then PC later, its how they plan their resources, they won't create a new team that they have no resourcing for to do NS if it wasn't already in the initial planning... which it likely wasn't for RDR2 as an example)

Patents =/= Final product ... 

No it isn't LOL ... (That thing is literally a beast compared to the NS. It's a supercharged Tegra X1 that happily sips up as much power as it wants from the wall all the while requiring active cooling. That thing struggled with last gen ports EVEN with the GPU clocked at 1GHz!) 

And I'm not expecting parity or 4K but I'm also not expecting it to run native current gen AAA console ports even with lower presets. NS needs a specialized versions of these games if it hopes to be able to run these blockbusters ... (If the Switch did get the said AAA console titles I'd expect them to look AND play drastically differently. 20/30FPS, less enemies, simpler AI, including different level design too) 

It's going to be Hyrule Warriors WII U vs 3DS and FF Type-0 HD twins vs PSP all over again if the Switch does manage to get these console titles ... (COD will also be 30FPS on the Swtich too.)



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Superchunk is clearly a fan of Nintendo products and for the moment the Switch spec looks very unrealistic with the Denver cores still mentioned which were not in the development kit.

Not much point debating with him at this point he seems determined to keep to an overly rosy version of the Switch spec. I disagree with him about this because it gives false expectations to a lot of people but ultimately we don't have the hard evidence yet to set in stone a realistic spec but I do feel currently its mis-judged to say the least.



Pemalite said:


Arguably? Nah. It most certainly *is* more advanced. 

Maxwell is an amazing microarchitecture, Pascal just refined it and took advantage of clock room.

But can it beat a GPU when developers are building games to take advantage of the various strength's and weakness's of Graphics Core Next? We know that there are a few edge cases where nVidia hardware tends to fold and AMD's hardware, shines. - How will that translate on the Switch remains to be seen.

Some GCN optimizations could potentially hurt Nvidia's microachitecture ... (Tons of asymmetries when we're talking about GPU microachitecture.) 

Shading language optimizations will also be different too. Shader model 6 is a perfect fit for GCN but I wonder what will happen to the Switch's performance as developers start doing these very hardcore shader optimizations you see on GCN ... 



superchunk said:

I'm expecting to see all major annual releases announced for in in 2017. Many in January and rest by E3.

You are setting yourself up for disappointment.



Maybe I'm missing something but Nintendo switch makes no sense to me. It has no harddrive which mean all games must sell through retail. This will kill the indie game market and make this console totally depended on the big game studios.

But the console is to weak for AAA games. If NS has 500 gigaflops and 25gb memory bandwidth there is just no way any gamedeveloper wanna waste time with this console. It needs a minimun 750 gigaflops and 50gb of memory bandwidth to even have a small chance for support.



6x master league achiever in starcraft2

Beaten Sigrun on God of war mode

Beaten DOOM ultra-nightmare with NO endless ammo-rune, 2x super shotgun and no decoys on ps4 pro.

1-0 against Grubby in Wc3 frozen throne ladder!!

Wii U -> 352 GFlops. The table is wrong.

https://www.techpowerup.com/gpudb/1903/wii-u-gpu



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