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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Switch vs WiiU vs Xbox One vs PS4 (Last Update: January 12, 2017)

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1325344

Amazingly detailed new patents from Nintendo confirm a lot of about switch.

- touchscreen (no stylus suggests capacitive)
- up to 4 joy-cons on one console (same 4 player support as in all modern consoles - split screen even in portable mode)
- should buttons L and R on each joy-con
- dock does allow system to over-clock to run TV visuals better (no extra horse power in dock)
- SD card support
- gyros in system and each joy-con
- IR pointer in joy-con
- NFC in joy-con
- ambient light sensors
- MULTIPLE joy-con configurations (think NES, SNES, N64 ,etc)
- MULTIPLE base connectors for joy-con (variations of a pro-controller)
- No ethernet port mentioned in doc, but that should be expected based on Wii/WiiU


- VR head mount display (think mobile phone style VR - also means system must be light)!!



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Miss on my part... patents do show that when docked it can use an ethernet (wired) network!



superchunk said:

You're focusing too much on flops as an end-all value for power. First of all, it very much can be half the flops as that is what all documentation of X2/Denver/Pascal states. Secondly, when you factor in that NS has a better CPU and the ram is similar, then I'd bet soundly that the NS is at least 1/2 that of a Xbox One.

Nobody even knows if the CPU or MEM will be better, that's just conjecture ... 

I don't care about Tegra's maximum performance since Nvidia has a tendency to overrate their claims, what I care about is the average case and it's not looking good for the Switch since it doesn't feature active cooling like the SHIELD console and it has a smaller form factor too ... 

Heat dissipation issues are a real thing ... 



fatslob-:O said:
superchunk said:

You're focusing too much on flops as an end-all value for power. First of all, it very much can be half the flops as that is what all documentation of X2/Denver/Pascal states. Secondly, when you factor in that NS has a better CPU and the ram is similar, then I'd bet soundly that the NS is at least 1/2 that of a Xbox One.

Nobody even knows if the CPU or MEM will be better, that's just conjecture ... 

I don't care about Tegra's maximum performance since Nvidia has a tendency to overrate their claims, what I care about is the average case and it's not looking good for the Switch since it doesn't feature active cooling like the SHIELD console and it has a smaller form factor too ... 

Heat dissipation issues are a real thing ... 

CPU is better. The Jaguar CPU is a low-end x86 mobile chip. There are plenty of devices with just ARM A57s in them that show they are better than a Jaguar CPU. A57 is the min chip in the NS CPU though it may actually have A73 as well.

LPDDR4 is better than DDR3 in the Xbox One. The difference is that NS will have 3.2GB vs 5GB avail for games and running at 26GB/s vs XboxOne's 68GB/s. This is why I say they are comparable. (PS4 has better GDDR4 as well as faster) However, in the long-haul of game develpment, PCs can run any current AAA game at low to mid-settings on just 2GB of RAM in the GPU. NS will be fine in this area.
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/samsung-lpddr4-mobile-ram-2015,28260.html

NS does in fact have active cooling. See the patent details if you wish. It runs at low speed during portable and high speed when docked so the system an run at max.

The only significant difference is the GPU power from NS to XboxOne and PS4. Here it will be ~1/2 to 2/3 of Xbox One levels which as well all know is also lower than PS4... and that is not focusing on max Tegra can do, but normal. Max is actually equivalent to Xbox One.

There is no reason, and devs in GAF have stated this as well, that 3rd parties would be prevented from porting to NS.

I expect:
PS4 = 1080p full on all textures/AA/etc
XBO = 900p full on all textures/AA/etc
NS = 720p (portable) 900p (docked) lower textures/AA/etc

Of course 1st party games will be 720p / 1080p.



superchunk said:

CPU is better. The Jaguar CPU is a low-end x86 mobile chip. There are plenty of devices with just ARM A57s in them that show they are better than a Jaguar CPU. A57 is the min chip in the NS CPU though it may actually have A73 as well.

LPDDR4 is better than DDR3 in the Xbox One. The difference is that NS will have 3.2GB vs 5GB avail for games and running at 50GB/s vs XboxOne's 68GB/s. This is why I say they are comparable. (PS4 has better GDDR4 as well as faster) However, in the long-haul of game develpment, PCs can run any current AAA game at low to mid-settings on just 2GB of RAM in the GPU. NS will be fine in this area.
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/samsung-lpddr4-mobile-ram-2015,28260.html

NS does in fact have active cooling. See the patent details if you wish. It runs at low speed during portable and high speed when docked so the system an run at max.

The only significant difference is the GPU power from NS to XboxOne and PS4. Here it will be ~1/2 to 2/3 of Xbox One levels which as well all know is also lower than PS4... and that is not focusing on max Tegra can do, but normal. Max is actually equivalent to Xbox One.

There is no reason, and devs in GAF have stated this as well, that 3rd parties would be prevented from porting to NS.

I expect:
PS4 = 1080p full on all textures/AA/etc
XBO = 900p full on all textures/AA/etc
NS = 720p (portable) 900p (docked) lower textures/AA/etc

Of course 1st party games will be 720p / 1080p.

You don't even know if the CPU will be better, what happens if the Switch only has 4 cores and his clocked lower than the AMD Jaguar in the consoles ? A serious bottleneck for game logic right there that would preclude the Switch from ever getting most of the AAA console games ... 

You don't even know the bus width or the clock of the memory controller so how do you know it's going to deliver 50 GB/s of memory bandwidth ? 

LOL, that's not active cooling. Active cooling requires a fan to cool off the system and what you just described is a boost or overclocked mode ... 

I bet you that "max" for performance you're describing is the FP16 stat. The actual "maximum" the Tegra X1 GPU can deliver is 512 GFlops FP32 precision which is still less than half of the Xbox One ... (This is best case scenario we're talking about here where the Tegra X1 chip has active cooling and always has power supplied from the wall whereas Switch won't even have those two biggest boons that shows the best that Tegra X1 has to offer.) 

I'd be dubious of claims of the Switch getting current gen AAA console ports in spite the tons of evidence saying otherwise like it's ultrapowered brother still not being able to match last gen consoles in performance with ports of last gen games ... 

Half of Tegra X1 sounds more realistic to me than half of the Xbox One all things considered ... 



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fatslob-:O said:

You don't even know if the CPU will be better, what happens if the Switch only has 4 cores and his clocked lower than the AMD Jaguar in the consoles ? A serious bottleneck for game logic right there that would preclude the Switch from ever getting most of the AAA console games ... 

You don't even know the bus width or the clock of the memory controller so how do you know it's going to deliver 50 GB/s of memory bandwidth ? 

LOL, that's not active cooling. Active cooling requires a fan to cool off the system and what you just described is a boost or overclocked mode ... 

I bet you that "max" for performance you're describing is the FP16 stat. The actual "maximum" the Tegra X1 GPU can deliver is 512 GFlops FP32 precision which is still less than half of the Xbox One ... (This is best case scenario we're talking about here where the Tegra X1 chip has active cooling and always has power supplied from the wall whereas Switch won't even have those two biggest boons that shows the best that Tegra X1 has to offer.) 

I'd be dubious of claims of the Switch getting current gen AAA console ports in spite the tons of evidence saying otherwise like it's ultrapowered brother still not being able to match last gen consoles in performance with ports of last gen games ... 

Half of Tegra X1 sounds more realistic to me than half of the Xbox One all things considered ... 

The X1 is a better CPU than Jaguar. Yes, Nintendo will tweak it so it may end up being lower powered, that is true.

I updated my bandwidth of the memory likely just as you quoted me. LPDDR4 is also a better tech of RAM than DDR3. Yes, due to Maxwell limitation, this will be slower and overall lower quantity. However, as I mentioned, PCs use less right now for the same games we're discussing,

You need to go look back at NS images and the patent report. NS has an actual fan and venting for heat. Portable mode may turn it on at low or not at all. However, docked it is certainly on. This is confirmed as fact, not up for debate.

Tegra X1 is in the current shield which is also a small portable device. NS will certainly be more powerful than that and fully capable of running latest AAA games. Multiple people who have been right many times already have stated its less but not substantially less than Xbox One in power. The fact you don't even know there is a fan suggests you are misimformed about other things like how games scale when built on middlware tools such as UE4. There is not technical reason 3rd party games won't be ported to NS based on the rumors I've spelled out in the OP.



superchunk said:

The X1 is a better CPU than Jaguar. Yes, Nintendo will tweak it so it may end up being lower powered, that is true.

I updated my bandwidth of the memory likely just as you quoted me. LPDDR4 is also a better tech of RAM than DDR3. Yes, due to Maxwell limitation, this will be slower and overall lower quantity. However, as I mentioned, PCs use less right now for the same games we're discussing,

You need to go look back at NS images and the patent report. NS has an actual fan and venting for heat. Portable mode may turn it on at low or not at all. However, docked it is certainly on. This is confirmed as fact, not up for debate.

Tegra X1 is in the current shield which is also a small portable device. NS will certainly be more powerful than that and fully capable of running latest AAA games. Multiple people who have been right many times already have stated its less but not substantially less than Xbox One in power. The fact you don't even know there is a fan suggests you are misimformed about other things like how games scale when built on middlware tools such as UE4. There is not technical reason 3rd party games won't be ported to NS based on the rumors I've spelled out in the OP.

A lower clocked quad core ARM could really struggle with games written for 8-core higher clocked Jags though.



superchunk said:

CPU is better. The Jaguar CPU is a low-end x86 mobile chip. There are plenty of devices with just ARM A57s in them that show they are better than a Jaguar CPU. A57 is the min chip in the NS CPU though it may actually have A73 as well.

LPDDR4 is better than DDR3 in the Xbox One. The difference is that NS will have 3.2GB vs 5GB avail for games and running at 26GB/s vs XboxOne's 68GB/s. This is why I say they are comparable. (PS4 has better GDDR4 as well as faster) However, in the long-haul of game develpment, PCs can run any current AAA game at low to mid-settings on just 2GB of RAM in the GPU. NS will be fine in this area.
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/samsung-lpddr4-mobile-ram-2015,28260.html

NS does in fact have active cooling. See the patent details if you wish. It runs at low speed during portable and high speed when docked so the system an run at max.

The only significant difference is the GPU power from NS to XboxOne and PS4. Here it will be ~1/2 to 2/3 of Xbox One levels which as well all know is also lower than PS4... and that is not focusing on max Tegra can do, but normal. Max is actually equivalent to Xbox One.

There is no reason, and devs in GAF have stated this as well, that 3rd parties would be prevented from porting to NS.

I expect:
PS4 = 1080p full on all textures/AA/etc
XBO = 900p full on all textures/AA/etc
NS = 720p (portable) 900p (docked) lower textures/AA/etc

Of course 1st party games will be 720p / 1080p.

Errrrr.... a lot wrong with this post.

First off, I dont know where you or anyone is getting this impression that a tegra X1 arm CPU is more powerful than a Jaguar x86 cpu. that's not true. 

and LPDDR4 is NOT better than DDR3 ram. Not even close. You know what the LP stands for right? And just look at your chart at the start of this thread. The quality of a memory solution is measured by its bandwidth. The higher the bandwidth the better he ram solution. Switch bandwidth is at what? 25-30GB? How can you say that's better than X1 which is at 60GB+? Only thing it does better is that it uses less power. period. 

And memory bandwidth  doesn't have the kind of size relationship you are drawing. 3GB of ram running at 25Gb/s doest make it comparable to 5GB of ram running at 50GB/s..... it just doesn't work that way.  

Lastly, its not going to be as easy as you think for devs to carry a game like say COD/BF and port it over from the XB1 to the switch. Without going into too much detail, porting from the PC to the XB1/PS4 kinda means they tone down certain assets and find margins that the platforms are comfortable with. By they at least know they are working with platforms that have 6 available cpu cores, a GPUs that are for the .let part identical, and an identical allotment of ram. All that goes out the window when making a Switch version. 

Not saying it's impossible. just saying its not as easy as you make it sound. And I wouldn't put stock in what devs or anyone say about hardware before the hardware actually comes out. Rememebr EA's unprecedented partnership with Nintendo? how did that play out?



superchunk said:

The X1 is a better CPU than Jaguar. Yes, Nintendo will tweak it so it may end up being lower powered, that is true.

I updated my bandwidth of the memory likely just as you quoted me. LPDDR4 is also a better tech of RAM than DDR3. Yes, due to Maxwell limitation, this will be slower and overall lower quantity. However, as I mentioned, PCs use less right now for the same games we're discussing,

You need to go look back at NS images and the patent report. NS has an actual fan and venting for heat. Portable mode may turn it on at low or not at all. However, docked it is certainly on. This is confirmed as fact, not up for debate.

Tegra X1 is in the current shield which is also a small portable device. NS will certainly be more powerful than that and fully capable of running latest AAA games. Multiple people who have been right many times already have stated its less but not substantially less than Xbox One in power. The fact you don't even know there is a fan suggests you are misimformed about other things like how games scale when built on middlware tools such as UE4. There is not technical reason 3rd party games won't be ported to NS based on the rumors I've spelled out in the OP.

The CPU in the Tegra X1 has higher single threaded performance but lower performance overall since it's 4 vs 8 cores and we don't even know the the Switch will do better ... (I imagine most likely worse) 

Again we still don't know what the memory bandwidth will be so could stop putting in hard numbers and listen to what I have to say ? 

Does the NS have the fan actually integrated into the main unit or is that on the dock itself ? If it's the latter that doesn't help since it's not helping cooling off the processors in the portable unit ... 

Tegra X1 that's in the microconsole which is actively cooled and has constant power supplied from the wall couldn't even outperform last gen consoles on last gen ports, doubt the Switch will be able to do much better in that regard ... 



curl-6 said:
superchunk said:

The X1 is a better CPU than Jaguar. Yes, Nintendo will tweak it so it may end up being lower powered, that is true.

I updated my bandwidth of the memory likely just as you quoted me. LPDDR4 is also a better tech of RAM than DDR3. Yes, due to Maxwell limitation, this will be slower and overall lower quantity. However, as I mentioned, PCs use less right now for the same games we're discussing,

You need to go look back at NS images and the patent report. NS has an actual fan and venting for heat. Portable mode may turn it on at low or not at all. However, docked it is certainly on. This is confirmed as fact, not up for debate.

Tegra X1 is in the current shield which is also a small portable device. NS will certainly be more powerful than that and fully capable of running latest AAA games. Multiple people who have been right many times already have stated its less but not substantially less than Xbox One in power. The fact you don't even know there is a fan suggests you are misimformed about other things like how games scale when built on middlware tools such as UE4. There is not technical reason 3rd party games won't be ported to NS based on the rumors I've spelled out in the OP.

A lower clocked quad core ARM could really struggle with games written for 8-core higher clocked Jags though.

Tegra X1 has 8 cores ... X2/P1 etc has 6 ... I seriously doubt it wil lhave 4 cores as that one devkit rumor stated.

Again, there are quad-core PCs similar or lower in power playing the current-gen games at lower settings now.