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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Uncharted director criticizes triple-a development, says it can 'destroy people'

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potato_hamster said:
GoOnKid said:

So, is there any way out? Can anything be done? Who's to blame and what would be the solution? (I know it's not that easy and that multiple factors weigh in differently and after all it comes down to each specific game that is regarded, but I ask you anyway. You as an insider. What could put the pressure off?)

Honestly, probably a game developer's union of some sort. The film industry would be just as bad if it wasn't for unions protecting their workers from profit driven corportations. Otherwise, there's nothing you can do. There's hundreds of people who have never made a game in their life, who haven't gone through the grind of making a video game from start to finish that are willing to do your job, with the same hours, and same pay. It's hard to have a bargaining chip when employers know that.

... but if developers pulling the shit they do led to strikes, or walkouts, or triggered automatic financial compensations to those who are forced into the meat grinder, it would change.

Thanks for the insight. It's a tough subject. On one hand we see beautiful and brilliant games, but we rarely get a look behind the curtains. This is a breath of fresh air. On the other hand we hear publishers cry about rising costs and the need to maintain high sales, which led to this situation. I hope things relax a bit in the future, but that's probably just wishful thinking.



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potato_hamster said:
GoOnKid said:

I meant the second part of the comment. About releasing smaller games as well, not just AAA. I'm pretty sure the Zelda team, for example, works their damn asses off.

They all work their damn asses off. How about you go ask the guys at team meat how many hours they put into Super Meat Boy, or Phil Fish on Fez, or Jonathan Blow on Braid?

I bet you it's more than 80 hours a week, especially in the last 1/4 of their development process.

Just because you're on a smaller team or a smaller project doesn't mean you're not putting in disgusting amounts of time and effort. The only consolation being in those cases, those guys CHOSE to put in those hours, whereas working for any major publisher, they expect you to. In fact, in my experience, I put in more hours developing smaller, lower budget games than I did multi-million selling AAA games.

Again, that's just my experience though. In general, you're right, smaller projects tend to be less demanding.

You know what we're wondering, but I understand if you can't divulge that information.



burninmylight said:
potato_hamster said:

They all work their damn asses off. How about you go ask the guys at team meat how many hours they put into Super Meat Boy, or Phil Fish on Fez, or Jonathan Blow on Braid?

I bet you it's more than 80 hours a week, especially in the last 1/4 of their development process.

Just because you're on a smaller team or a smaller project doesn't mean you're not putting in disgusting amounts of time and effort. The only consolation being in those cases, those guys CHOSE to put in those hours, whereas working for any major publisher, they expect you to. In fact, in my experience, I put in more hours developing smaller, lower budget games than I did multi-million selling AAA games.

Again, that's just my experience though. In general, you're right, smaller projects tend to be less demanding.

You know what we're wondering, but I understand if you can't divulge that information.

I've been doxxed before, so if the question is "what games have you worked on", I'm afraid I can't say.



potato_hamster said:
GoOnKid said:

So, is there any way out? Can anything be done? Who's to blame and what would be the solution? (I know it's not that easy and that multiple factors weigh in differently and after all it comes down to each specific game that is regarded, but I ask you anyway. You as an insider. What could put the pressure off?)

Honestly, probably a game developer's union of some sort. The film industry would be just as bad if it wasn't for unions protecting their workers from profit driven corportations. Otherwise, there's nothing you can do. There's hundreds of people who have never made a game in their life, who haven't gone through the grind of making a video game from start to finish that are willing to do your job, with the same hours, and same pay. It's hard to have a bargaining chip when employers know that.

... but if developers pulling the shit they do led to strikes, or walkouts, or triggered automatic financial compensations to those who are forced into the meat grinder, it would change.

I'd love to see gamer's reactions to a developer strike. PD get criticised all the time for being slow to deliver. I have no idea how the crunch situation is there, yet dare to take more than 2 years to make another release and gamers already start complaining.

But true, the film industry has learned to time manage projects, why can't game development studios learn. I've been there too, and with a group of passionate people it's always, let's try to get this in too, let's do this a bit different, etc, until it's too late and the list of issues that still need to be fixed has grown out of hand. Someone needs to step in and say cut, stick to the original script, don't promiss anything else, good enough.



Well, Hennig's right... I did hear Hajime Tabata was sleeping around 5 hours per night because of FFXV's development...



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SvennoJ said:

I'd love to see gamer's reactions to a developer strike. PD get criticised all the time for being slow to deliver. I have no idea how the crunch situation is there, yet dare to take more than 2 years to make another release and gamers already start complaining.

But true, the film industry has learned to time manage projects, why can't game development studios learn. I've been there too, and with a group of passionate people it's always, let's try to get this in too, let's do this a bit different, etc, until it's too late and the list of issues that still need to be fixed has grown out of hand. Someone needs to step in and say cut, stick to the original script, don't promiss anything else, good enough.

Gaming is different to making a film, the programming alone can be a mountain of a task with that alone having as many issues possibly more as you would find making an entire film. Problems from how the hardware reacts to each line of code to how do we execute this idea in the game's concept to engine conflicts to overcoming hardware limitations and this is just one aspect mind you, game assets like character models as well as animation are other areas that are time consuming and remember they all have to come together like a jigsaw puzzle and the hardware has to be able to play that puzzle.

Someone stepping in and restricting freedom can remove clutter but it's a double edge sword as some influential features have come from people adding things a prime example is the multiplayer in Goldeneye, that launched consoles as a serious platform for shooters before Halo came along and cemented it. Had someone been there to make them stick to the original idea the game would never have had that mode.



Publishers should make longer time frame for developers. 3 years isn't enough for AAA games, graphics are the ones taking more time.



Wyrdness said:
SvennoJ said:

I'd love to see gamer's reactions to a developer strike. PD get criticised all the time for being slow to deliver. I have no idea how the crunch situation is there, yet dare to take more than 2 years to make another release and gamers already start complaining.

But true, the film industry has learned to time manage projects, why can't game development studios learn. I've been there too, and with a group of passionate people it's always, let's try to get this in too, let's do this a bit different, etc, until it's too late and the list of issues that still need to be fixed has grown out of hand. Someone needs to step in and say cut, stick to the original script, don't promiss anything else, good enough.

Gaming is different to making a film, the programming alone can be a mountain of a task with that alone having as many issues possibly more as you would find making an entire film. Problems from how the hardware reacts to each line of code to how do we execute this idea in the game's concept to engine conflicts to overcoming hardware limitations and this is just one aspect mind you, game assets like character models as well as animation are other areas that are time consuming and remember they all have to come together like a jigsaw puzzle and the hardware has to be able to play that puzzle.

Someone stepping in and restricting freedom can remove clutter but it's a double edge sword as some influential features have come from people adding things a prime example is the multiplayer in Goldeneye, that launched consoles as a serious platform for shooters before Halo came along and cemented it. Had someone been there to make them stick to the original idea the game would never have had that mode.

Don't underestimate the work that goes into making a big movie, which also involves a lot of programming nowadays to get the cgi done. At least with games you don't have to deal with the weather. For example filming of The revenant had to be completed in Argentina due to lack of snow in Canada. The difference is, movies aren't shown 2 years in advance as the next big thing promising all locations and what not beforehand.

Hardware limitations are specific to games true, yet those are known constants. The push for ever better graphics has become a liability. Adding an unplanned multiplayer mode, move control scheme, ps4 pro enhancements, psvr additions, is it really worth the crunch? Adding things late in production always causes headaches. It turned out great with Goldeneye, yet it was still irresponsible and set a precedent for bad development style.

That's a big difference between movies and games. With movies the creative phase comes first, script, storyboarding, then executing. With games it's all going through eachother. Uncharted 3 started as a bunch of set pieces with the script tying them together pretty much coming last. No wonder time management is a big mess in games development. Ofcourse you can still run into problems with a strong script and vision as TLG simply could not be executed. Best is to stop showing off games way before they are ready and either cut or delay.



SvennoJ said:
potato_hamster said:

Honestly, probably a game developer's union of some sort. The film industry would be just as bad if it wasn't for unions protecting their workers from profit driven corportations. Otherwise, there's nothing you can do. There's hundreds of people who have never made a game in their life, who haven't gone through the grind of making a video game from start to finish that are willing to do your job, with the same hours, and same pay. It's hard to have a bargaining chip when employers know that.

... but if developers pulling the shit they do led to strikes, or walkouts, or triggered automatic financial compensations to those who are forced into the meat grinder, it would change.

I'd love to see gamer's reactions to a developer strike. PD get criticised all the time for being slow to deliver. I have no idea how the crunch situation is there, yet dare to take more than 2 years to make another release and gamers already start complaining.

But true, the film industry has learned to time manage projects, why can't game development studios learn. I've been there too, and with a group of passionate people it's always, let's try to get this in too, let's do this a bit different, etc, until it's too late and the list of issues that still need to be fixed has grown out of hand. Someone needs to step in and say cut, stick to the original script, don't promiss anything else, good enough.

Well unlike the film industry, not every problem is solvable with time and money. Sometimes a game feature is too ambititious and too innovative, and there's just no way to make it work within the hardware constraints if they can make it work at all. Sometimes a gameplay mechanic that the game was based around is plain isn't fun no matter how much is tweaked. There are unsolvable problems where the only real solution is to not do them, and to fundamentally replace them with something else that may or may not solve the problem as well. Sometimes it's a very cuttable feature like an extra game mode or an optional setting, or weapon. Sometimes its super critical and then you're fucked, and your whole project is fucked, and there is no saving it.

The only time the film industry really faces such similar problems like that is when actors die, and even then they can get around it most of the time, especially with CGI - even terrible CGI is a solution no matter how bad it is.. There's no "CGI bandaid" that can fix, say, a climbing pathfinding mechanic that doesn't actually bring the player where they intend on going 80% of the time because of a fundamental flaw in its design. You can't "good enough" that without your game still looking like a buggy, unpolished piece of shit.

There's only so much planning you can do before a project quite literally



It baffles me that when we now developers are closing down because of the costs that someone would suggest that the best solution is to reduce the time they work and raise their paycheck.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."