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Forums - Politics - Face it. It is over. Trump won.

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Trump or Hillary?

Trump FTW! 305 51.69%
 
Hillary all the way! 285 48.31%
 
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Machiavellian said:
Mr Puggsly said:

The thing is Isis became a real threat under Obama's watch. Its a threat that was allowed to grow because the world ignored it.

I've looked around the web from crime commited by illegal aliens, what I see is significantly higher than 1%. I get the impression you're citing a source that supports what you want but may not be reality. Even articles that sympathetic illegal aliens give statistics higher than 1%. Either way, we should do a better job monitoring who's here illegally and throwing out anyone commiting crimes.

Anywho, I feel Hilary's lies are more signfiicant.

Yes ISIS did become a bigger threat under Obama presidency but then again to put the total blame on Obama is viewing the situation without considering the full scope.  What I find interesting is that people complained that we were in a war we should not have been in so bring back our troops.  When our troops started dying people complained.  When Obama did not bring the troops home fast enough there was complaining, when we were forced out of Iraq because our agreement was up, people blamed him for pulling our troops and helping spread ISSIS.  The thing is no matter what the president did he was going to be blamed for it because the president is blamed for everything.  People forget that Obama kept the troops in Iraq because the area was destabilized.  We had to bring back the troops after the Bush agreement with Iraq was over and they told us we had to leave.  Not leaving would have broken that agreement and thus meant occupation.  

As for crimes commited by illegal aliens, I did not say illegal aliens I said undocumented Mexican immigrants.  There is a big difference here because Trump did not say illegal aliens, he specifically pointed to undocument Mexicans since he was using them as his case to support building a wall.  He stated that Mexico is sending their people here who are murders and rapaist not illegal aliens.  If he stated it that way we probably would have nothing to talk about on that subject.

For your last point I do understand how you feel.  As a father, my kids make the same lies as Hillary all the time.  You get in trouble and you think you can spin it so that your dad does not punish you.  Hell, as a husband, who has not told their wife a few lies because you did not want to deal with the fallout.  One of my biggest problem with Trump is that if he make up stuff like this before he gets into office, what will he do once there.  Usually POTUS canidates do not lie or make up as much stuff as Trump before they get into office because they are concerned about character and image.  The fact that Trump doesn't care about Trump at this stage does not look good for how his presidency would go.  I believe something like Bush and the Iraqi war and saying there was WMDs would be the least of the lies that we will see from him.

Well its a great thing we didn't occupy, because things are great now. I get what you're saying though, but its evident things aren't gonna get better there until the threat is annihilated and Obama did not encrouage that. But I hope people have learned you can't just ignore evil.

Well illegal Mexicans do make up a vast majority of crime commited by illegal aliens. Mexico is our neighbor and its clearly a country with a lot of problems. Nobody is suggesting a wall for Canada for obvious reasons. People will interpret the Trump Mexicans speech to what fits the narrative they want. Democrats want us all to believe it was a racist speech, but the real intent of that speech was to be tougher on criminal illegals which are mostly from Mexico. Had he said it differently there wouldn't be a discussion, it was the biggest blunder Trump has made in his campaign.

People say Bush lied, but wasn't there a lot of intelligence saying Iraq had WMDs? Either way, I'm of a small minority that seems to think the world is better with Saddam dead. I just wish more was done to bring sanity to the middle east, because ignoring it and hoping things get better was never an option.



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SpokenTruth said:
This is your candidate. Watch it. Don't shrug it off, don't spin it, just watch it and then ask yourself how you can excuse all of that.

https://thescene.com/watch/gq/176-reasons-donald-trump-shouldn-t-be-president

It's not really 176 reasons, it's 2 reasons, "he is insulting" and "he is lying", with 176 "evidences". So the title is quite a bit stretched.

It's not put in perspective, while we know that Trump supporters vote a lot against Clinton. Can you really think about that, don't shrug it off, don't spin it :
- what ever lie and bold statement Trump had, he had it just as a public personality, and he knew he would get media attention worth million dollars from any bold statement. It's fair to say he would not be even there without that, and that part is a tactical use of sensationalist journalism. It's fair enough also to say he has a big ego and present himself as prescient.
- what ever lie and bold statement Clinton had, she had it as a public servant, she is accountable for it, especially because a lot of her lies (or supposedly lies) are here to cover her dishonnesty (corruption) as a public servant.

In these "evidences", we can see different patterns we have to break down.

- Trump is falsely presented as the problem when he is not the major concern
Trump can call to hack Clinton's server, but it's just words. He does not have an army of obedient hackers waiting his order, right ? Hackers will hack anyway. So that's not big deal, it's just tactical. The real problem here is Clinton, she lied about her private server, she put national security at risk with her private server, and she did not comply to congress requests. That's so much worst, it's not even comparable.
Trump can lie about his position regarding Irak, and that's something I don't like, but it's not the same as actually voting for the war in Irak. As a business man, he did not have access to reports, does not have specifically thought about the question.

- Bold statements are presented as something horrible
That can be too much, but again that's part a communication style, part about getting attention, and part an hyperbole. I mean telling illegal mexican immigrants are bringing drug and crime, he does not mean every single of them, the point here is that there is that there is a security issue with illegal immigration, a complete failure regarding immigration law reinforcement, and that he's positionning himslef as someone that acknoweldge the problem, and as someone that is willing to fix it. Also it has to compared to Clinton that does not even think about it as a problem. There is a major drug and crime problem inside Mexico, that's plain fact, how the hell would uncontrolled, illegal immigration does not bring drugs and crimes ?

- His lies to make up thing or make himself look smart
That's a fact and I don't think it's a good thing, but it's not as much damaging as lying unde oath in front of the congress regarding security. Also it does not make him less smart or able, he is successful, his economic plan makes sense to me, and he is not tied by foreign and wall street money. The ability to do is the point, and it does not minor it so much. Clinton on the other hand is the very reason why nothing changes : corruption.



Mr Puggsly said:
Machiavellian said:

Yes ISIS did become a bigger threat under Obama presidency but then again to put the total blame on Obama is viewing the situation without considering the full scope.  What I find interesting is that people complained that we were in a war we should not have been in so bring back our troops.  When our troops started dying people complained.  When Obama did not bring the troops home fast enough there was complaining, when we were forced out of Iraq because our agreement was up, people blamed him for pulling our troops and helping spread ISSIS.  The thing is no matter what the president did he was going to be blamed for it because the president is blamed for everything.  People forget that Obama kept the troops in Iraq because the area was destabilized.  We had to bring back the troops after the Bush agreement with Iraq was over and they told us we had to leave.  Not leaving would have broken that agreement and thus meant occupation.  

As for crimes commited by illegal aliens, I did not say illegal aliens I said undocumented Mexican immigrants.  There is a big difference here because Trump did not say illegal aliens, he specifically pointed to undocument Mexicans since he was using them as his case to support building a wall.  He stated that Mexico is sending their people here who are murders and rapaist not illegal aliens.  If he stated it that way we probably would have nothing to talk about on that subject.

For your last point I do understand how you feel.  As a father, my kids make the same lies as Hillary all the time.  You get in trouble and you think you can spin it so that your dad does not punish you.  Hell, as a husband, who has not told their wife a few lies because you did not want to deal with the fallout.  One of my biggest problem with Trump is that if he make up stuff like this before he gets into office, what will he do once there.  Usually POTUS canidates do not lie or make up as much stuff as Trump before they get into office because they are concerned about character and image.  The fact that Trump doesn't care about Trump at this stage does not look good for how his presidency would go.  I believe something like Bush and the Iraqi war and saying there was WMDs would be the least of the lies that we will see from him.

Well its a great thing we didn't occupy, because things are great now. I get what you're saying though, but its evident things aren't gonna get better there until the threat is annihilated and Obama did not encrouage that. But I hope people have learned you can't just ignore evil.

Well illegal Mexicans do make up a vast majority of crime commited by illegal aliens. Mexico is our neighbor and its clearly a country with a lot of problems. Nobody is suggesting a wall for Canada for obvious reasons. People will interpret the Trump Mexicans speech to what fits the narrative they want. Democrats want us all to believe it was a racist speech, but the real intent of that speech was to be tougher on criminal illegals which are mostly from Mexico. Had he said it differently there wouldn't be a discussion, it was the biggest blunder Trump has made in his campaign.

People say Bush lied, but wasn't there a lot of intelligence saying Iraq had WMDs? Either way, I'm of a small minority that seems to think the world is better with Saddam dead. I just wish more was done to bring sanity to the middle east, because ignoring it and hoping things get better was never an option.

If you want stability in the Middle East so bad, why don't you go over there and fight for it? Sign up for the Marines, they're always looking for fresh recruits. It's easy to say to other people they should risk their lives to go fight in a country which in reality doesn't have much to do with America. 

The "ISIS inspired" attacks in the US killed 16 people in San Bernandino and 49 in that Florida nightclub (which I still suspect was also motivated by a guy who was basically gay himself, what shooter "scopes" out a gay nightclub ... for several years, the drink specials were that good?).

More people have died in "regular" school shootings in the US. 

Since 9/11 there's likely been more people killed in America by bee stings per year on average than a terrorist attack. Should we declare war on the bees too?

Mexican immigrants commit less crime than the average American actually as well:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-mythical-connection-between-immigrants-and-crime-1436916798

Trump is pandering to a racist section of the right wing by pushing this narrative. If you want to be a "criminal", it's far easier to do so in Mexico, why the fuck would you come to America for that? It's a lot easier to live that life style and you can bribe your way out jail time there, you'd have to be a dumb ass to do that in the US where people get life in prison for smoking a joint three times. Most Mexicans coming here are people who just want a better life for their kids and willing to work cleaning up shit stained toilet bowls and puke stained bed sheets and picking fruit in blazing heat for 60 hours a week for pennies on the dollar. 



Soundwave said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Well its a great thing we didn't occupy, because things are great now. I get what you're saying though, but its evident things aren't gonna get better there until the threat is annihilated and Obama did not encrouage that. But I hope people have learned you can't just ignore evil.

Well illegal Mexicans do make up a vast majority of crime commited by illegal aliens. Mexico is our neighbor and its clearly a country with a lot of problems. Nobody is suggesting a wall for Canada for obvious reasons. People will interpret the Trump Mexicans speech to what fits the narrative they want. Democrats want us all to believe it was a racist speech, but the real intent of that speech was to be tougher on criminal illegals which are mostly from Mexico. Had he said it differently there wouldn't be a discussion, it was the biggest blunder Trump has made in his campaign.

People say Bush lied, but wasn't there a lot of intelligence saying Iraq had WMDs? Either way, I'm of a small minority that seems to think the world is better with Saddam dead. I just wish more was done to bring sanity to the middle east, because ignoring it and hoping things get better was never an option.

If you want stability in the Middle East so bad, why don't you go over there and fight for it? Sign up for the Marines, they're always looking for fresh recruits. It's easy to say to other people they should risk their lives to go fight in a country which in reality doesn't have much to do with America. 

The "ISIS inspired" attacks in the US killed 16 people in San Bernandino and 49 in that Florida nightclub (which I still suspect was also motivated by a guy who was basically gay himself, what shooter "scopes" out a gay nightclub ... for several years, the drink specials were that good?).

More people have died in "regular" school shootings in the US. 

Since 9/11 there's likely been more people killed in America by bee stings per year on average than a terrorist attack. Should we declare war on the bees too?

Mexican immigrants commit less crime than the average American actually as well:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-mythical-connection-between-immigrants-and-crime-1436916798

Trump is pandering to a racist section of the right wing by pushing this narrative. If you want to be a "criminal", it's far easier to do so in Mexico, why the fuck would you come to America for that? It's a lot easier to live that life style and you can bribe your way out jail time there, you'd have to be a dumb ass to do that in the US where people get life in prison for smoking a joint three times. Most Mexicans coming here are people who just want a better life for their kids and willing to work cleaning up shit stained toilet bowls and puke stained bed sheets and picking fruit in blazing heat for 60 hours a week for pennies on the dollar. 

Okay, maybe I will go. I got some free time. Bottom line, the world doesn't get better when we just sit around. You can't ignore evil and that's why we drop bombs and send in the drones, but it evidently doesn't solve the problem entirely.

I don't think you got all the ISIS inspired killings... but the ones you mentioned are a good start. Perhaps the attacks in Europe are worth a mention as well. Fortunately we do stop some before they can attack as well. Frankly, its a problem you fight before it gets worse.

I can post links too! http://www.cbsnews.com/news/undocumented-immigrants-increasingly-filling-arizona-prisons/

Why come to America to be a criminal? Too much competition in Mexico? Even the police will rob you in Mexico and that's not a joke.

I live in Arizona and I totally see the value of Mexican's in this country, but we can let in what we need legally. US citizens pay the taxes and our safety should be the priority, so at the very least we should track who is here illegally for our safety and deal with the criminals. Simply doing that would make people more comfortable with our illegal population.



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Mr Puggsly said:

I live in Arizona and I totally see the value of Mexican's in this country, but we can let in what we need legally. US citizens pay the taxes and our safety should be the priority, so at the very least we should track who is here illegally for our safety and deal with the criminals. Simply doing that would make people more comfortable with our illegal population.

Well, if this is true I guess you will not be supporting the candidate who will make sure that illegals never, ever, ever allow themselves to get tracked for fear of summary deportation? 



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SpokenTruth said:

So pretty much what I thought.  Mostly shrugged off and several "but Hillary's".  Credit that you watched it all though.

You shrug things off because he was private sector rather than public.  But that's what we have to work with.  Do you honestly think that his demeanor, his tactics, his lies, his ego, his global ties, etc...will all suddenly change on January 20th, 2017?  That's been his life for 70 years.  That's been the man presented to us for the past 15 months.  That's not going to change.

You are showing reason for not voting for Trump. Implicitely, you are telling people should vote for someone else than Trump... But we should not compare, and not even talk about Clinton ? It's about as dishonnest as it can be.



Norris2k said:

The speculation fuels itself largely, tax cut are in the hundreds billions, the derivative market is currently 1200 trillons dollars (20 times the world GDP), so it's a whole different magnitude. Trump is a lot about tax cuts from the begininng, why Wall Street does not care and massively give to Clinton ? Because they want no change, the current situation is very good for them.

It's possible money flew to speculation (hard to assess in such a messy economic system), but again, you can't reduce Trump plan to cut spending, it's also about changing corporate rules, an infrastructure program (which is a lot more beneficial than the trillon spent in wars), and a change in the trade with China and Mexico.  Also the Trump plan is much more ambitious and much more focused on business than what Bush did. Again, it's much more similar to what Reagan did, and that worked pretty well. Reagan was not just about tax cuts, he totally dealt with the Japanese unfair trade advantage (cheap currency), and Trump seems a lot more than Clinton willing to deal with Chinese problem. And this has a lot to do whith how their campains are financed.

I believe that with the level of technology, assets, know-how and infrastructure we have accumulated, it should be great, we should have stable, well paid jobs. And if we don't have it, some people are fighting against our interests, and we need a change. Trump is a change in the right direction.

You keep loving Reagan but was the economy that great in the 80s?  I don't know as much considering I was just growing up then.  I do know the 90s were pretty decent economic times but still not best.  I know for fact Reagan started driving up debt during the 80s.  His plan was cut taxes for rich brackets mainly and increase military spending to outspend Russia in the Cold War.

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http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/debt_deficit_history

 

You keep touting Reagan like his Voodoo economics was a miracle for the US economy.  I'm just not seeing it.  You can't cut taxes along with social programs but then pump up the defense budget.  Driving up the military budget won't offset the cuts in social programs.  Basically, Republicans want to increase the size of government military wise but slash social programs that many Americans rely on.  Doesn't seem right in my book.  They also say oh there is so much fraud in welfare, food stamps, etc... Sure there is but you know what I believe the US military has way more fraud.  If you want to save some money don't increase the military budget.  Give it a full audit and get rid of all the bullshit waste projects that we have or have done with private contractors wasting untold billions.



zuvuyeay said:
so it is everyone against "uneducated and or angry white males" according to the leftists

hope trump wins over another bush-clinton myself

 Obviously that is an oversimplification, if only angry white males would elect Trump he would've already lost. As the race is pretty tight currently (although with a small advantage for Clinton), there must be some others who are willing to vote for Trump.



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Qwark said:
As a European I pretty much beg you Americans to not vote for Trump.

As an european I pretty much don't care which of the two will bring WWIII. Although I could beg the Americans to vote for Jill Stein.



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Lefil said:

If Trump is elected as President, he's going to destroy America's influence, power, and reputation, in the world.. and therefore make China becomes the next global leader.

Well, China will be the next global leader either way. OK, some nuclear bombs on major chinese cities may change that outcome, but it may change the future of the whole worlds in unforseeable ways.



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