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Forums - Nintendo - Digital Foundry takes a closer look at Breath of the Wild

Qwark said:
DonFerrari said:

What isn't true? No game close to what Zelda have would run on PS360? What is your evidence for that?

Because I always like to throw gasoline on fire. Both the last of us and god of war 3 managed to run on PS3. Which still look great visually today, as does ratchet and clank a crack in time.

Well... as accepted by goodnightmoon... since we haven't ever seem a game that looks like GoW3 or LTOU on WiiU the machine is uncapable of doing it.



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GTA V and BOTW can't be directly compared. GTA V's open world is filled with NPC's, buildings and traffic, something that BOTW doesn't have. Also BOTW has cel shaded graphics so a lot less details are required for it. Both have impressive physics, but PS3's CPU has more powerful and higher clocked individual cores than PS4, so it should handle BOTW's physics. BOTW is better in terms of framerate than last gen GTA V, that's the only place its better.

Also GOW 3 can run on PS3 at 45-60fps so BOTW would run on it easily. GOW 3 had incredible scale to it, some of the bosses were bigger than entire levels in some other games. Not open world, but as they are all animated that makes it more impressive and it still looks like a PS4 game on PS3.



DonFerrari said:
Goodnightmoon said:

Because that's not true.

What isn't true? No game close to what Zelda have would run on PS360? What is your evidence for that?

 

DonFerrari said:
Hynad said:

What is your evidence that such a game would run on the PS360?

Visually, a lot of things would have to be scaled back to be possible on the PS360. With all the physics in place, all the dynamic elements, and the polygon count, I really don't see a game doing all this at once for the PS360. 

Considering we had Skyrim, GTA V on PS360 I see little reason to say Zelda wouldn't be possible on then. And the bigger evidence that it would be possible is that WiiU isn't really stronger than any of them. And certainly no matter the case you would have to make adequations for any platform you release.

And the guy saying it's impossible is the one that must prove his claim, not reversing the burden of proof.

 

DonFerrari said:
Goodnightmoon said:

What is yours for sayintg the opposite? 

Mine is my eyes and a good memory, because most people seem to have a terrible amnesia when it comes to remember graphics of last gen games, the only open world game that cames remotely close to this one in Ps360 is GTAV, the most expensive game ever, and yet, it doesn't look as good as this on those consoles and it runs at 20fps half of the time, hopefully this will have a mostly stable framerate in release. Tachikoma made an analysis about XCX and she concluded that the game was not possible on Ps360 at least without making huge downgrades in some areas. This looks better than XCX and has a way more complex Physics sytem and AI so I can easily conclude with no, Ps360 could not run this game.

Sorry, but the burden is on the one that claim it's impossible... or you want me to say TLOU would be impossible on WiiU because we never saw a game that have a close similar to it on WiiU?

What an amazing denial. Zelda botw would NEVER run on ps360 as it is. it would take a downgrade to 540p, 24fps most of the time, as well as reducided poly count, textures, very reduced draw distance, enemy AI, physics...

Skyrim, GTA5 and any other ps360 game are crushed by Zelda Botw, Xenoblade X, as well as most wii u exclusives. Deal with it.



GOWTLOZ said:
GTA V and BOTW can't be directly compared. GTA V's open world is filled with NPC's, buildings and traffic, something that BOTW doesn't have. Also BOTW has cel shaded graphics so a lot less details are required for it. Both have impressive physics, but PS3's CPU has more powerful and higher clocked individual cores than PS4, so it should handle BOTW's physics. BOTW is better in terms of framerate than last gen GTA V, that's the only place its better.

Also GOW 3 can run on PS3 at 45-60fps so BOTW would run on it easily. GOW 3 had incredible scale to it, some of the bosses were bigger than entire levels in some other games. Not open world, but as they are all animated that makes it more impressive and it still looks like a PS4 game on PS3.

Only the characters in Breath of the Wild are cel shaded; rock, snow, trees, pavement, water, dirt, etc all use regular textures. And rendering a world as big and detailed as BotW takes more than just CPU grunt, it also places considerable demands on RAM and GPU power, two areas where Wii U exceeds PS3 and 360.

Also, GOW3 looks as good as it does because it is highly scripted; levels are linear, the developers control the camera so they can always micro-manage exactly what's on screen at any given time, and a lot its eye candy is smoke and mirrors. It looks flashy but its not as technically demanding as an open world game like Breath of the Wild.

 

DonFerrari said:
curl-6 said:

Wii U is stronger than PS3/360. Not by leaps and bounds, not even by much, but it is stronger. It has twice as much RAM and a more modern GPU. To get Breath of the Wild running on PS360, you would have to significantly reduce its memory footprint and likely reduce/simplify some of its effects. Sure, you could get a downgraded version running on PS3/360, but you could get a downgraded version of Uncharted 4 on PS3/360 if you made enough concessions.

It's possible some downgrades would be necessary, but I would bet that if in the hands of SSM or ND they would be able to produce basically the same product with those differences not being very perceptible. And a lot of games were sub 720p on PS360 so it wouldn't look out of place.

I doubt resolution would be the primary downgrade; I think the most noticeable cut would have to be level of detail. With half as much RAM, you couldn't fit as many assets into play at once, leading to a lot more pop-in.



God of War III? Are we talking about this game below? I think people really have selective memories.



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The physics are the most impressive part from what I've seen. One thing Nintendo has always been better than anyone else at is that sense of freedom to move in any direction you like in a 3D environment, but they've never combined it with an open world before. As much as I love other open worlds like Bethesda's and such, the movements can feel a bit clunky... from what I've seen so far that's not the case here.



Teeqoz said:
Hynad said:

Skyrim and GTAV one PS3 and 360 aren't in the same ballpark as BOTW. It would have to run at sub 720p, with maybe a low setting FXAA if at all, much less individual grass strands, much more pop-ins/weaker draw distance, and who knows what would happen to the physics. xD Skyrim and GTA V both didn't have physics as intricate as what's found in BOTW, and that is pretty CPU intensive. Let's not mention how all of it would perform. Skyrim wasn't much of an example for that, and GTA V struggles quite a bit at times, while Nintendo games are always great performers. 

If there's anything from BoTW that the PS360 wouldn't struggle with, it would be the physics. Especially the PS3 has a powerful as fuck CPU. iirc, it beats the PS4 and XBO's CPUs. Only problem is that it's hard to optimize for. GTAV and Skyrim are bad examples, because they are multiplats, and thus haven't gotten the same attention and optimization as BoTW has gotten by virtue of being an exclusive. (I mean, Bethesda is notoriously shit at optimization, the early PS3 version is infamous for it).

 

I doubt the PS360 could run BoTW with the exact same visual fidelity as the Wii U, but I also doubt they would have to reduce visual fidelity as much as you make it seem here. It would probably be plagued by pop-in though, because the one place where the Wii U is substantially ahead of the PS360 is in the amount (and perhaps speed?) of the RAM.

The Playstation 3's CPU isn't powerful. It never was even on release and certainly isn't today, I apologise if you fell for Sony's marketing, it was powerful for a console, for sure, but pales in comparison to even tablet CPU's today.

I bet all you are doing is taking the floating point numbers and comparing it against Jaguar? Wrong way to do things. You can take a 1 Teraflop GPU and it can beat a 2 Teraflop GPU, the amount of flops is useless when comparing different processors of completely different architectures, instruction sets, heck even generation.

Not only that but the Playstation 3's CPU only excels in iterative refinement floating point, Jaguar excels in everything.
Now I am not sure if you are aware, but games use all sorts of math, so you cannot strictly render a game using iterative refinement floating point, you may need your bog standard single precision, double precision, integer and more all at once.

Essentially it will be like a car race, Jaguar will be able to maintain 100km/h during the entire race regardless of conditions, whilst Cell will be doing 50km/h during the entire race, however the Cell will have an occasional "boost" when road conditions, fuel type, wind speed and direction all play to it's core strength and then it can hit 150km/h temporarily.
Cell might have the top speed, but it will loose the race every single time.

Not only that, but Jaguar is smarter, it's more efficient, it has more SIMD instructions, it has better branch tree prediction, it has better bandwidth management, it has larger caches, it's out-of-order and there is a degree of cache coherency, it's lower latency, everything.

Cell has more in common with the first generation Intel Atom's than it does with a modern out-of-order high-performance CPU architecture and it's performance meets those expectations as well.




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Oh, are we still talking about games that AREN'T Zelda?

Fun.

Regardless of whether or not this could run on PS360, the design choices here are intentional. The cel-shading, for example, means low-res textures, which are easier to render and, if stylized properly, look absolutely amazing. It free up a lot of resources on the Wii U, and (unless a similar technique was used) wouldn't properly replicate onto a PS360.

That said, the PS3 itself uses a fucking crazy-intense processor. When games were properly optimized for it, they would look on par with games rendered by mid-tier PCs half a decade later. Off the top of my head, Uncharted always looked great; The Last of Us is one of the most perfect Swan Songs for a console in the history of gaming; inFAMOUS 2 is (in my opinion) still one of the greatest sandbox games ever made; and while it might not look amazing at first for textures, Demon's Souls (a game from 2009) is capable of regularly putting out 35-40fps. Were a game like this to be put on the PS3 exclusively, yes; it would suffer for its lack of RAM. But that hasn't stopped developers in the past from continuously blowing our fucking minds.

That all said, this constant comparison between PS360 and Wii U is getting old. 360 is simply behind- that's all there is to it. PS3 lags even further behind in terms of RAM, but let's keep in mind that processor is a fucking monster. The Wii U benefits from being a newer machine with cheaper access to better RAM than what PS360 had. I know I said this game couldn't properly replicate to PS360, but optimization is a crazy thing... However, the resources it would take to do this on PS360 would cost much more than what it is costing on Wii U.



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Azuren said:


That said, the PS3 itself uses a fucking crazy-intense processor. When games were properly optimized for it, they would look on par with games rendered by mid-tier PCs half a decade later

No. It doesn't use a crazy processor.
And games didn't look good because of the CPU either, the CPU was mostly used for basic framebuffer/overlay effects.

PC's from that generation could be equipped with a Core 2 Quad... And guess what? Those chips could play that entire generation of games, what you are describing is the graphics rendering, which is... *Gasp* the main job of a GPU.

The more you know.




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Pemalite said:
Azuren said:


That said, the PS3 itself uses a fucking crazy-intense processor. When games were properly optimized for it, they would look on par with games rendered by mid-tier PCs half a decade later

No. It doesn't use a crazy processor.
And games didn't look good because of the CPU either, the CPU was mostly used for basic framebuffer/overlay effects.

PC's from that generation could be equipped with a Core 2 Quad... And guess what? Those chips could play that entire generation of games, what you are describing is the graphics rendering, which is... *Gasp* the main job of a GPU.

The more you know.

Well, it was still a crazy processor. Must've been why it was so hard to code with, it kept seeing code that wasn't there.

 

I'm aware of what a GPU is, I know whats job is, and I'm aware that a CPU only needs to be strong enough so as to not bottleneck the GPU. Please don't talk down to me like an idiot. I know you're better than that.

Iirc, didn't the Cell Processor help with the workload of the RSX? I could have swore I read that somewhere.



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