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Forums - Sales Discussion - 5.5 Million PS3s Shipped

johnlucas said:
omgwtfbbq said:
most of the fighting seems to come from the definition of "customers". To a company such as Sony, the customer is not the consumer, but the retailer. Therefore "sold to customers" means "sold to retailers" and not "sold to consumers". The truth is no company knows "sold to consumers", and no company states "sold to consumers" numbers because quite simply that number is almost impossible to track. Any number Sony could say for "sold to consumers" would just be an estimate and would be no more or less accurate than VGCharts. Of course, they will have numbers for Sold to retailers, because that's where they make their sale. The same goes for all three companies, sold only ever means "sold to retailers". So basically 5.5 million PS3's have left the doors of the manufacturing plant, 3.6 million PS3's have arrived at stores, and approx 3 million have been bought by consumers and are sitting in living rooms. This doesn't look too good for Sony, if sales continue at their current pace it will take them about 8 months just to go through their current inventory (of course, it's ridiculous to say that sales will continue at their current pace, but I would be very surprised if Sony has sold their current stack of PS3's by the time holiday season hits

Totally wrong.

You can easily track customer numbers. How?

Whatever is shipped is counted first. And whatever remains in stock after sellings to customers is the remainder. The SOLD TO CUSTOMERS is the difference. That's how you track sales to customers. Once a shipment is depleted whatever number that shipment was is a figure to count as sold. TRULY sold. Sold to Retailers means crap. Because there's no guarantee that the stuff is moving off the shelves. That's how we're 5 months in and XBox 360 still hasn't reached that 10 million number yet. The frequency of new shipments and the rapid destocking by purchases from customers means success.

Now they don't tell US this stuff word for word, no. But it's not at ALL hard to concretely figure what is being sold. It has to leave the store right? The store keeps inventory right? That nonsense about it being hard to track just doesn't hold weight. They just don't release the info to us. Japan certainly tracks this stuff which is why those ship/sold sleights of hand won't work there.

They don't talk about sales to consumers on reports much because all the investors are interested in money earned in profit. Sony made gigantic sales in revenue on the PS1 & PS2 but profitwise had little to show for that dominance. Investors only care about money, new avenues for money, new money-making ideas. So that's what they get on those reports.

There NEEDS to be customer metric for this kind of thing and I hope one day VGChartz is able to become the go-to guide to truly assess the performances of systems in the future.

John Lucas

Sure. Look, I usually agree with everything you say, but you are completely wrong here. Let's look at two scenarios:

1) Sony, follows your scenario. They count everything they sell to the retailers. They then call EVERY SINGLE RETAILER IN THE WORLD, asking them how many PS3's are sitting on shelves. They then sutract one number from the other and come up with an accurate number of consoles sold to consumers. They come up with a number (3 million) and give that to their investors. There's a reason why NPD takes two weeks to get their data, it's a lot of hard work, and they're only tracking one country, they don't even track all of it, and they GET MONEY FOR IT.

2) Sony calls retailers their customers, and just counts how many they sold to retailers, which of course they know since they have control over it. They release a larger number (looks better to their investors), and since they had to do a lot less work they get to take an early lunch.

I'm sorry, but scenario 1 is ridiculous. Sony's customer is the retailer, not the end user. 

...

Hang on, the second half of your post is basically agreeing with me, saying the numbers Sony released as their number of PS3's sold were actually sold to retailers and not consumers...

What's your point? 



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mrstickball said:
You can work the numbers to say whatever you want them to say. Sony has shipped or has, 5.5m PS3s in the world. Good? Yes, but MS produced 4.4m in just 3 months when the PS3 launched. So we stand at (in millions): MS; 10.9 shipped Nintendo; 5.83 shipped Sony; 5.5 shipped With actual units in gamers hands as of today: MS; 9.7 Nintendo; 6.8 Sony; 3.7

Good post, but Nintendo can't have shipped 5.83 million if they sold 6.8 ;)



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Taz42 said:
I'm pretty sure you'll find different definitions if you look up those words in a dictionary, so it has nothing to do with redefining the english language. They are hardly missusing the words. 'sold' can mean sold to any party. I don't understand why you get so hung up on it to absolutely mean an end-user. I'm sure retailers are paying customers. That said, I'd really like shipped and sold to mean what you said, but your argumentation for the case is pretty weak imho. Ofcourse the difference between sold to retail and what they have left in stock is what has been sold to consumers, but the console manufacturers don't have the current inventory numbers for every retailer in the entire world.

I like this reply.

Why?

Because WHO the HELL are they making the damn things for? Are they making 'em for the storeowners? No. Are they making them for the truckers who drive them all across the country? No. Are they making them for the shipcrews who ferry these things across the seven seas? No. Are they making them to please the manufacturers? No. Are they making them for the accountants to write little numbers on the books simply for writing's sake? No. Are they making them for aliens in outerspace to ward off extraterrestial attacks by displaying humanity's grasp of high-technology? No.

They Are Making Them For The Folks Who Are Going To Be USING Them. The USER at the END of the commerce chain. Yes, the end-user. The consumer. The customer.

Argumentation weak? HA. The moment any company forgets this basic rule is the moment they lost touch with reality.

Without me the customer you ain't gon' be in biz'ness, brother! Hahahahahaha!

Retailers? Retailers only care about a box. If it was made for them only, they'd just be selling boxes. Why put anything in them? Just produce boxes and have retailers stock them on shelves. Yeah if it was only about producer and retailer they can just send boxes back and forth between each other while we look on in wonder. Obviously that's not their roles, is it?

It's common sense. Basic English. I don't have to interpret it. It's plain as the nose on your face which is how it always SHOULD be. When it's NOT that's when someone's trying to confuse you. Like Lawyers. Communication has to be clear or what's the point? Right? Words should be taken at face value in an honest exchange.

When companies get of the mindset that you mention, that's when they start to go downhill. Anyone who thinks they're above the paying customer/end-user has the missed the point of why they are in business in the first place. When I hear conversations leaving the buyer out as if that is a non-issue that is when I see a big problem.

These are Sony & Microsoft's practices toward the buyer which is why the prices are the way they are and why manufacturing quality is the way it is. The end-user is seen as assumed. Something to corral like sheep. In the bag. A pawn in a larger playing game. And that's the entirely WRONG attitude.

There should ALWAYS be a buyer-producer link. And it should be STRONG. When I part of my hard-earned dollars to buy your widget, your widget better be damned good and your service better be the same. I should get maximum enjoyment out of my widget and when I do I will buy more of your widgets to reward you. Keep your widgets prices reasonable to the contents of my wallet and you will keep a loyal paying customer. If you're lucky I may entice my hard-earning friends to part of their dollars to buy some of your widgets.

The retailer is the middleman. He is NOT the focus. Sold To Retailer figures are important because they tell END USER the amount of supply of the product. It STILL revolves around the end user. The retailer doesn't exist without the end user. This retailer only sells goods others make. He's nothing without either. And he's actually the weakest in the chain. He's just the revolving door everyone passes.

Shipped numbers are important because it tells customers about supply quantity and prepare middleman retailer to stock appropiately for the buyers of the area.

But TRUE sold numbers are the ones that matter because buyer has to buy from retailer for any of this to make a damn difference. And when retailer can't move producer's stuff don't they make the producer buy it back? If retailer can't move stock doesn't he stop dealing with the producer? Buyer/Consumer/Customer is actually the most important in the chain.

Keep it real, my brotha. Don't EVER forget about the customer.

Shipped means that which is shipped by A SHIP, AIRSHIP (plane), GROUNDSHIP (truck/train).

Sold means that which is sold in a SALE/SELL to someone who BUYS. Someone who buys is a buyer. A retailer is someone who retails. Tails Again. So sold to retailer only means beginning of the tail. He has to tail again by selling these bought pieces to the TRUE buyer getting to the END of the tail wagging happily for our story (our tale).

The definition is not mysterious as nothing is truly mysterious in straight talk. Only when someone wants to confuse you does language become difficult. Obscuring communication will do that for ya. Can't see when it's not clear. And you will always be in a fog.

John Lucas



Words from the Official VGChartz Idiot

WE ARE THE NATION...OF DOMINATION!

 

omgwtfbbq said:
 

Sure. Look, I usually agree with everything you say, but you are completely wrong here. Let's look at two scenarios:

1) Sony, follows your scenario. They count everything they sell to the retailers. They then call EVERY SINGLE RETAILER IN THE WORLD, asking them how many PS3's are sitting on shelves. They then sutract one number from the other and come up with an accurate number of consoles sold to consumers. They come up with a number (3 million) and give that to their investors. There's a reason why NPD takes two weeks to get their data, it's a lot of hard work, and they're only tracking one country, they don't even track all of it, and they GET MONEY FOR IT.

2) Sony calls retailers their customers, and just counts how many they sold to retailers, which of course they know since they have control over it. They release a larger number (looks better to their investors), and since they had to do a lot less work they get to take an early lunch.

I'm sorry, but scenario 1 is ridiculous. Sony's customer is the retailer, not the end user.

...

Hang on, the second half of your post is basically agreeing with me, saying the numbers Sony released as their number of PS3's sold were actually sold to retailers and not consumers...

What's your point?


I just wrote it out for Taz42. I KNOW that's how Sony counts their figures. What I'm saying is that it's bullshit.

The retailer is the middleman. And it's not really hard to do this if they wanted to. All they have to do is ask if shipment has been totally sold out. And that number represents true sales.

Sony may 'call' their retailers customers but that's actually crap. Who are we? Chopped meat? It's not hard at all to count this but the refusal to care about such things speaks to how the company views you who should be the most important part of the commerce chain. Without the END BUYER none of these other guys exist!

"Looks better to their investors." Exactly. And that's the whole problem. Fudging numbers to hoodwink and confuse and dazzle and mesmerize. NPD is worthless and they won't even release the numbers without a fee.

You wanna a real easy way to do this? Just have the barcode input count as the sale. When it passes the register with money exchanged that's a sale. Computers record the data and send it direct to the companies. Voila!

Hard to track, my ass. Japan does this every week. Actual numbers. No one has to dig through tomes of guesstimates and estimated figures. They TELL you what's been sold because that crap doesn't fly over there. Different mentality. They pride themselves on their national businesses and want to know EXACTLY how good or how bad they're doing in the market to make better decisions.

The fact that this site exists explains how little companies think of their customers. The fact NPD numbers are secret lets you know how they think we don't matter in the scheme of the commerce chain. We're just sheep to be herded and I hate that attitude. We should know EXACTLY what's being sold and how well the things are doing to make wiser purchasing choices.

We know box office don't we? We know TV ratings don't we? There's no reason we shouldn't know game sales. And it can be tracked like any thing else in this world.

I don't care what they do and I know the logic behind what they do. I'm saying it's BS. Don't brag about cargo you're stuffing on the shelves of a store and making that big news. That thing could take months to move and that means nothing to me who has to buy it. You brag about what people are USING. Anybody can ship an assload anywhere. That's not talent.

The metric you determine success is how many customers are buying and enjoying your product and nothing more. SOLD means END USER. The whole commerce chain rests in the hands of the end user. And don't you ever forget it.

John Lucas



Words from the Official VGChartz Idiot

WE ARE THE NATION...OF DOMINATION!

 

johnlucas said:
omgwtfbbq said:
 

Sure. Look, I usually agree with everything you say, but you are completely wrong here. Let's look at two scenarios:

1) Sony, follows your scenario. They count everything they sell to the retailers. They then call EVERY SINGLE RETAILER IN THE WORLD, asking them how many PS3's are sitting on shelves. They then sutract one number from the other and come up with an accurate number of consoles sold to consumers. They come up with a number (3 million) and give that to their investors. There's a reason why NPD takes two weeks to get their data, it's a lot of hard work, and they're only tracking one country, they don't even track all of it, and they GET MONEY FOR IT.

2) Sony calls retailers their customers, and just counts how many they sold to retailers, which of course they know since they have control over it. They release a larger number (looks better to their investors), and since they had to do a lot less work they get to take an early lunch.

I'm sorry, but scenario 1 is ridiculous. Sony's customer is the retailer, not the end user.

...

Hang on, the second half of your post is basically agreeing with me, saying the numbers Sony released as their number of PS3's sold were actually sold to retailers and not consumers...

What's your point?


I just wrote it out for Taz42. I KNOW that's how Sony counts their figures. What I'm saying is that it's bullshit.

The retailer is the middleman. And it's not really hard to do this if they wanted to. All they have to do is ask if shipment has been totally sold out. And that number represents true sales.

Sony may 'call' their retailers customers but that's actually crap. Who are we? Chopped meat? It's not hard at all to count this but the refusal to care about such things speaks to how the company views you who should be the most important part of the commerce chain. Without the END BUYER none of these other guys exist!

"Looks better to their investors." Exactly. And that's the whole problem. Fudging numbers to hoodwink and confuse and dazzle and mesmerize. NPD is worthless and they won't even release the numbers without a fee.

You wanna a real easy way to do this? Just have the barcode input count as the sale. When it passes the register with money exchanged that's a sale. Computers record the data and send it direct to the companies. Voila!

Hard to track, my ass. Japan does this every week. Actual numbers. No one has to dig through tomes of guesstimates and estimated figures. They TELL you what's been sold because that crap doesn't fly over there. Different mentality. They pride themselves on their national businesses and want to know EXACTLY how good or how bad they're doing in the market to make better decisions.

The fact that this site exists explains how little companies think of their customers. The fact NPD numbers are secret lets you know how they think we don't matter in the scheme of the commerce chain. We're just sheep to be herded and I hate that attitude. We should know EXACTLY what's being sold and how well the things are doing to make wiser purchasing choices.

We know box office don't we? We know TV ratings don't we? There's no reason we shouldn't know game sales. And it can be tracked like any thing else in this world.

I don't care what they do and I know the logic behind what they do. I'm saying it's BS. Don't brag about cargo your stuffing on the shelves of a store and making that big news. That thing could take months to move and that means nothing to me who has to buy it. You brag about what people are USING. Anybody can ship an assload anywhere. That's not talent.

The metric you determine success is how many customers are buying and enjoying your product and nothing more. SOLD means END USER. The whole commerce chain rests in the hands of the end user. And don't you ever forget it.

John Lucas

if you were saying it as a reply to Taz42, then why did you quote my post, and then say I was wrong?

I never claimed Sony's viewpoint was a valid one. My argument was plain and simple: In Sony's financial report when they say "Sold" they mean "Sold to retailers".

So basically what you're telling me now is you said "You're wrong" and then proceeded to agree with everything I said?

Anyway, your ideas are still crap. Sure in theory, it's easy to track how many things are sold. But this relies on setting up an infrastructure whereby the retailers send information to Sony. This costs the retailer money, and for no purpose. Sony could foot the bill, but why? They're paying money to track their numbers, but it doesn't help them.

To Sony, as well as Nintendo and Microsoft, the retailer is their customer. They don't care (and neither do investors) whether it's sold to an end user or whether it's collecting dust on a store shelf because the retailer has already handed the money over to Sony. The only reason why the number moving matters to them is because if they move it means they get to sell more consoles to the retailer. ie, it only effects them indirectly because it effects the important figure, the amount of consoels that they have MADE MONEY ON.

Japan works just like USA. How do you think different places in Japan have different figures? Because it's a guess based on whatever data they can get. The EXACT SAME THING happens with TV and Movie ratings. You think that every time you buy a movie ticket Sony Pictures gets a memo? You think that NBC (or whatever the tv stations you have over there) can tell when you're watching your channel? Of course not, they take a small sample and guesstimate the final solution, the same way NPD/Media Create/Chart track do it. And these outside 3rd parties collect this data because people PAY THEM TO DO IT, so they know where to put their advertising dollars, etc.

The metric to determine financial success to your investors is money made, period. Here we care about the sales figures because that shows which console people are interested in, and we like to predict how the gaming market will look. But to Sony, this is a money making business (well... supposedly)



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I think you seem to have a mistaken impression that the world is generally a just and fair place and that people are clever and intelligent and won't put up with crap. I agree with what you say. I really do. The problem is that companies treat consumers like sheep to be herded because consumers ACT like sheep to be herded. Sony fucks their customers over again and again and again. Microsoft are one of the most disgusting companies in the world. Every time I read a press release from one of their executives I can barely breathe from the slimyness of their speech and the cloud of FUD they exude with every word they utter. I refuse to be a sheep for these corporations, and I haven't purchased a single Microsoft or Sony product in over a year now. But Sony is still a huge company making billions, and people are still saying how they're a great reliable company who never let them down. People are praising Microsoft and their Xbox business, and still using Windows and buying into Vista. The day that consumers stop acting like sheep will be the day that companies stop treating them like sheep.



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I agree with omgwtfbbq: the reality is that your favorite company doesn't care about you. They care about profits, period. If they can deceive or cheat you to get more profits, and if they can do it in such a way that you're happy, they will. From everything I've read here, it's pretty clear that Sony has nearly 2 million unsold PS3s sitting in wear houses, which they seem to consider a point of transit. As of March 31st, they sold to retailers (their customers -- we are the retailer's customers) 3.6 million PS3s, which is about 600,000 that retailers had on their selves. This makes perfect sense and the numbers appear to line up with what we've seen. I don't think Sony could manage to sell more than 2 million units to retailers that were unsold to customers. Microsoft accomplished this, but their system is 50% cheaper and the rumor was that they used Vista as leverage against some retailers. Take that with a grain of salt, of course.



omgwtfbbq said:
 

if you were saying it as a reply to Taz42, then why did you quote my post, and then say I was wrong?

I never claimed Sony's viewpoint was a valid one. My argument was plain and simple: In Sony's financial report when they say "Sold" they mean "Sold to retailers".

So basically what you're telling me now is you said "You're wrong" and then proceeded to agree with everything I said?

Anyway, your ideas are still crap. Sure in theory, it's easy to track how many things are sold. But this relies on setting up an infrastructure whereby the retailers send information to Sony. This costs the retailer money, and for no purpose. Sony could foot the bill, but why? They're paying money to track their numbers, but it doesn't help them.

To Sony, as well as Nintendo and Microsoft, the retailer is their customer. They don't care (and neither do investors) whether it's sold to an end user or whether it's collecting dust on a store shelf because the retailer has already handed the money over to Sony. The only reason why the number moving matters to them is because if they move it means they get to sell more consoles to the retailer. ie, it only effects them indirectly because it effects the important figure, the amount of consoels that they have MADE MONEY ON.

Japan works just like USA. How do you think different places in Japan have different figures? Because it's a guess based on whatever data they can get. The EXACT SAME THING happens with TV and Movie ratings. You think that every time you buy a movie ticket Sony Pictures gets a memo? You think that NBC (or whatever the tv stations you have over there) can tell when you're watching your channel? Of course not, they take a small sample and guesstimate the final solution, the same way NPD/Media Create/Chart track do it. And these outside 3rd parties collect this data because people PAY THEM TO DO IT, so they know where to put their advertising dollars, etc.

The metric to determine financial success to your investors is money made, period. Here we care about the sales figures because that shows which console people are interested in, and we like to predict how the gaming market will look. But to Sony, this is a money making business (well... supposedly)


Well I know investors don't care about the product. They just care about the profit. As they should.

Well I thought Japan was accurate. I guess I was wrong. At LEAST they put out the numbers in public unlike NPD. I know TV ratings are crap. They only pick certain people to rate this stuff. The point I was making is at least it's public. Less obscure than game sales seem to be.

Well I'll just say this. Without the finances from the buyers the investors won't have any financial success to worry about. If customers mattered so little why even have customer service?

I see what you're talking about and we really aren't on opposing sides. I dig what you said here:

"I think you seem to have a mistaken impression that the world is generally a just and fair place and that people are clever and intelligent and won't put up with crap.

I agree with what you say. I really do. The problem is that companies treat consumers like sheep to be herded because consumers ACT like sheep to be herded. Sony fucks their customers over again and again and again. Microsoft are one of the most disgusting companies in the world. Every time I read a press release from one of their executives I can barely breathe from the slimyness of their speech and the cloud of FUD they exude with every word they utter.

I refuse to be a sheep for these corporations, and I haven't purchased a single Microsoft or Sony product in over a year now.

But Sony is still a huge company making billions, and people are still saying how they're a great reliable company who never let them down. People are praising Microsoft and their Xbox business, and still using Windows and buying into Vista.

The day that consumers stop acting like sheep will be the day that companies stop treating them like sheep."

I'm no sheep. I'm a Taurus. I'm a bull and you don't ride a bull. If I choose to side with you it's only my choice but it's not an obligation. The moment you cut up I drop you. You guys may think my favor of Nintendo is eternal but if they ever stopped fulfilling my requirements in producing products then they'd be out on their ass too. So far this hasn't happened and I don't get nearly as much false hype and hoodwinking from them like I see from the other companies. I don't expect any of these guys to be boy scouts but I'd like a little more straight shooting out of them. I read Sega-Sammy fiscal 2007 report and it admitted shortcomings they need to look over. I respected that. EA's on the other hand had me in a fog trying to decode GAAP from non-GAAP and the general intentional difficulty put down to making the report hard to read and understand simply.

Sega-Sammy's stuff was neat concise and clear. Direct. Itemized and explained. I can respect that. EA's Good God! Gave me a headache!

From Nintendo I get sturdy goods, consistently good games, a respectful helpful customer service, and a price with the budgets of most people in mind. If they choose to call retailers customers it doesn't mean as much because they still put focus on the real customer as well. So as long as this continues I support them. Sony's stuff used to break too much, XBox 360's stuff is doing that now. And they keep jacking up prices for questionable returns. So I won't support them with my own dollars though I don't mind playing someone else's who used their own.

If you put the work in I will buy. If you forget about who runs this whole chain then I won't.

And if they get too cocky well the pirates are there to keep 'em in check. Forget about us too long and we'll just jack your "shtuff"! Hahahahahahahaha! It'll be nice to see those financial metrics when they're zero 'cause everybody's rippin' and a' roarin'. END USER/CUSTOMER. Those who forget will pay the price.

The working man keeps society running not the boss. I always keep in mind the true important ones in every discussion matter. 

John Lucas



Words from the Official VGChartz Idiot

WE ARE THE NATION...OF DOMINATION!

 

johnlucas said:


Well I know investors don't care about the product. They just care about the profit. As they should.

Well I thought Japan was accurate. I guess I was wrong. At LEAST they put out the numbers in public unlike NPD. I know TV ratings are crap. They only pick certain people to rate this stuff. The point I was making is at least it's public. Less obscure than game sales seem to be.

Well I'll just say this. Without the finances from the buyers the investors won't have any financial success to worry about. If customers mattered so little why even have customer service?

I see what you're talking about and we really aren't on opposing sides. I dig what you said here:

"I think you seem to have a mistaken impression that the world is generally a just and fair place and that people are clever and intelligent and won't put up with crap.

I agree with what you say. I really do. The problem is that companies treat consumers like sheep to be herded because consumers ACT like sheep to be herded. Sony fucks their customers over again and again and again. Microsoft are one of the most disgusting companies in the world. Every time I read a press release from one of their executives I can barely breathe from the slimyness of their speech and the cloud of FUD they exude with every word they utter.

I refuse to be a sheep for these corporations, and I haven't purchased a single Microsoft or Sony product in over a year now.

But Sony is still a huge company making billions, and people are still saying how they're a great reliable company who never let them down. People are praising Microsoft and their Xbox business, and still using Windows and buying into Vista.

The day that consumers stop acting like sheep will be the day that companies stop treating them like sheep."

I'm no sheep. I'm a Taurus. I'm a bull and you don't ride a bull. If I choose to side with you it's only my choice but it's not an obligation. The moment you cut up I drop you. You guys may think my favor of Nintendo is eternal but if they ever stopped fulfilling my requirements in producing products then they'd be out on their ass too. So far this hasn't happened and I don't get nearly as much false hype and hoodwinking from them like I see from the other companies. I don't expect any of these guys to be boy scouts but I'd like a little more straight shooting out of them. I read Sega-Sammy fiscal 2007 report and it admitted shortcomings they need to look over. I respected that. EA's on the other hand had me in a fog trying to decode GAAP from non-GAAP and the general intentional difficulty put down to making the report hard to read and understand simply.

Sega-Sammy's stuff was neat concise and clear. Direct. Itemized and explained. I can respect that. EA's Good God! Gave me a headache!

From Nintendo I get sturdy goods, consistently good games, a respectful helpful customer service, and a price with the budgets of most people in mind. If they choose to call retailers customers it doesn't mean as much because they still put focus on the real customer as well. So as long as this continues I support them. Sony's stuff used to break too much, XBox 360's stuff is doing that now. And they keep jacking up prices for questionable returns. So I won't support them with my own dollars though I don't mind playing someone else's who used their own.

If you put the work in I will buy. If you forget about who runs this whole chain then I won't.

And if they get too cocky well the pirates are there to keep 'em in check. Forget about us too long and we'll just jack your "shtuff"! Hahahahahahahaha! It'll be nice to see those financial metrics when they're zero 'cause everybody's rippin' and a' roarin'. END USER/CUSTOMER. Those who forget will pay the price.

The working man keeps society running not the boss. I always keep in mind the true important ones in every discussion matter.

John Lucas

Well this is getting a bit too long winded and it's 1 am so I think I'll call it here. I just want to mention that I applaud your viewpoint here but you still have a kind of "viva la resistance" message that's not really happening in the real world, unfortunately. Too many people are focused on short term goals (zomg look at the graphics must buy) to think about how it hurts them in the long term (if I keep trusting this company even after they screwed me over multiple times then they'll keep screing me over). People think their voice doesn't count because there are so many others but seem to forget that the mob is just a large group of people.

your view is grand but it's never going to happen because people are just too narrow minded to see that their actions have far reaching consequences. 

I will, however, be happy to see Sony fail with the PS3, just the same was I am happy (in retrospect, I was pretty young at the time and didn't quite understand) to see Nintendo lose it with the N64. Nintendo ate the humble pie, they sat back, looked at what went wrong, and fixed it to the point where I can trust them again. I really do hope the same thing happens with Sony, and I'm glad we're starting to see at least some results (management reshuffles). But I'm not keeping my hopes too high that anything will change.



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John, I don't really know what your point is. Sold to retail is what matters to investors of Sony, that's what they have reported this time (3.6 million). And sold to consumers is what matters to consumers? I don't think so. You're just thinking of yourself as the most important customer. In a couple of years, RFID will help a lot to track units sold more precisely across the whole chain (which also includes distributors, not just Sony, retail and consumers), but it will still be at the discretion of Sony if they release more numbers or not. Remember, they just have to release figures for investors. If they weren't on the stock market, they wouldn't have to publizise anything at all. And 3rd party figures from NPD or Media Create will *always* be estimates based on statistic samples. How could that not be obvious.



Hardcore gaming is a bubble economy blown up by Microsoft's $7 $6 billion losses.