if you were saying it as a reply to Taz42, then why did you quote my post, and then say I was wrong?

I never claimed Sony's viewpoint was a valid one. My argument was plain and simple: In Sony's financial report when they say "Sold" they mean "Sold to retailers".

So basically what you're telling me now is you said "You're wrong" and then proceeded to agree with everything I said?

Anyway, your ideas are still crap. Sure in theory, it's easy to track how many things are sold. But this relies on setting up an infrastructure whereby the retailers send information to Sony. This costs the retailer money, and for no purpose. Sony could foot the bill, but why? They're paying money to track their numbers, but it doesn't help them.

To Sony, as well as Nintendo and Microsoft, the retailer is their customer. They don't care (and neither do investors) whether it's sold to an end user or whether it's collecting dust on a store shelf because the retailer has already handed the money over to Sony. The only reason why the number moving matters to them is because if they move it means they get to sell more consoles to the retailer. ie, it only effects them indirectly because it effects the important figure, the amount of consoels that they have MADE MONEY ON.

Japan works just like USA. How do you think different places in Japan have different figures? Because it's a guess based on whatever data they can get. The EXACT SAME THING happens with TV and Movie ratings. You think that every time you buy a movie ticket Sony Pictures gets a memo? You think that NBC (or whatever the tv stations you have over there) can tell when you're watching your channel? Of course not, they take a small sample and guesstimate the final solution, the same way NPD/Media Create/Chart track do it. And these outside 3rd parties collect this data because people PAY THEM TO DO IT, so they know where to put their advertising dollars, etc.

The metric to determine financial success to your investors is money made, period. Here we care about the sales figures because that shows which console people are interested in, and we like to predict how the gaming market will look. But to Sony, this is a money making business (well... supposedly)

I think you seem to have a mistaken impression that the world is generally a just and fair place and that people are clever and intelligent and won't put up with crap. I agree with what you say. I really do. The problem is that companies treat consumers like sheep to be herded because consumers ACT like sheep to be herded. Sony fucks their customers over again and again and again. Microsoft are one of the most disgusting companies in the world. Every time I read a press release from one of their executives I can barely breathe from the slimyness of their speech and the cloud of FUD they exude with every word they utter. I refuse to be a sheep for these corporations, and I haven't purchased a single Microsoft or Sony product in over a year now. But Sony is still a huge company making billions, and people are still saying how they're a great reliable company who never let them down. People are praising Microsoft and their Xbox business, and still using Windows and buying into Vista. The day that consumers stop acting like sheep will be the day that companies stop treating them like sheep.

I agree with omgwtfbbq: the reality is that your favorite company doesn't care about you. They care about profits, period. If they can deceive or cheat you to get more profits, and if they can do it in such a way that you're happy, they will. From everything I've read here, it's pretty clear that Sony has nearly 2 million unsold PS3s sitting in wear houses, which they seem to consider a point of transit. As of March 31st, they sold to retailers (their customers -- we are the retailer's customers) 3.6 million PS3s, which is about 600,000 that retailers had on their selves. This makes perfect sense and the numbers appear to line up with what we've seen. I don't think Sony could manage to sell more than 2 million units to retailers that were unsold to customers. Microsoft accomplished this, but their system is 50% cheaper and the rumor was that they used Vista as leverage against some retailers. Take that with a grain of salt, of course.

Well I know investors don't care about the product. They just care about the profit. As they should.

Well I thought Japan was accurate. I guess I was wrong. At LEAST they put out the numbers in public unlike NPD. I know TV ratings are crap. They only pick certain people to rate this stuff. The point I was making is at least it's public. Less obscure than game sales seem to be.

Well I'll just say this. Without the finances from the buyers the investors won't have any financial success to worry about. If customers mattered so little why even have customer service?

I see what you're talking about and we really aren't on opposing sides. I dig what you said here:

"I think you seem to have a mistaken impression that the world is generally a just and fair place and that people are clever and intelligent and won't put up with crap.

I agree with what you say. I really do. The problem is that companies treat consumers like sheep to be herded because consumers ACT like sheep to be herded. Sony fucks their customers over again and again and again. Microsoft are one of the most disgusting companies in the world. Every time I read a press release from one of their executives I can barely breathe from the slimyness of their speech and the cloud of FUD they exude with every word they utter.

I refuse to be a sheep for these corporations, and I haven't purchased a single Microsoft or Sony product in over a year now.

But Sony is still a huge company making billions, and people are still saying how they're a great reliable company who never let them down. People are praising Microsoft and their Xbox business, and still using Windows and buying into Vista.

The day that consumers stop acting like sheep will be the day that companies stop treating them like sheep."

I'm no sheep. I'm a Taurus. I'm a bull and you don't ride a bull. If I choose to side with you it's only my choice but it's not an obligation. The moment you cut up I drop you. You guys may think my favor of Nintendo is eternal but if they ever stopped fulfilling my requirements in producing products then they'd be out on their ass too. So far this hasn't happened and I don't get nearly as much false hype and hoodwinking from them like I see from the other companies. I don't expect any of these guys to be boy scouts but I'd like a little more straight shooting out of them. I read Sega-Sammy fiscal 2007 report and it admitted shortcomings they need to look over. I respected that. EA's on the other hand had me in a fog trying to decode GAAP from non-GAAP and the general intentional difficulty put down to making the report hard to read and understand simply.

Sega-Sammy's stuff was neat concise and clear. Direct. Itemized and explained. I can respect that. EA's Good God! Gave me a headache!

From Nintendo I get sturdy goods, consistently good games, a respectful helpful customer service, and a price with the budgets of most people in mind. If they choose to call retailers customers it doesn't mean as much because they still put focus on the real customer as well. So as long as this continues I support them. Sony's stuff used to break too much, XBox 360's stuff is doing that now. And they keep jacking up prices for questionable returns. So I won't support them with my own dollars though I don't mind playing someone else's who used their own.

If you put the work in I will buy. If you forget about who runs this whole chain then I won't.

And if they get too cocky well the pirates are there to keep 'em in check. Forget about us too long and we'll just jack your "shtuff"! Hahahahahahahaha! It'll be nice to see those financial metrics when they're zero 'cause everybody's rippin' and a' roarin'. END USER/CUSTOMER. Those who forget will pay the price.

The working man keeps society running not the boss. I always keep in mind the true important ones in every discussion matter. 

John Lucas

Well this is getting a bit too long winded and it's 1 am so I think I'll call it here. I just want to mention that I applaud your viewpoint here but you still have a kind of "viva la resistance" message that's not really happening in the real world, unfortunately. Too many people are focused on short term goals (zomg look at the graphics must buy) to think about how it hurts them in the long term (if I keep trusting this company even after they screwed me over multiple times then they'll keep screing me over). People think their voice doesn't count because there are so many others but seem to forget that the mob is just a large group of people.

your view is grand but it's never going to happen because people are just too narrow minded to see that their actions have far reaching consequences. 

I will, however, be happy to see Sony fail with the PS3, just the same was I am happy (in retrospect, I was pretty young at the time and didn't quite understand) to see Nintendo lose it with the N64. Nintendo ate the humble pie, they sat back, looked at what went wrong, and fixed it to the point where I can trust them again. I really do hope the same thing happens with Sony, and I'm glad we're starting to see at least some results (management reshuffles). But I'm not keeping my hopes too high that anything will change.

John, I don't really know what your point is. Sold to retail is what matters to investors of Sony, that's what they have reported this time (3.6 million). And sold to consumers is what matters to consumers? I don't think so. You're just thinking of yourself as the most important customer. In a couple of years, RFID will help a lot to track units sold more precisely across the whole chain (which also includes distributors, not just Sony, retail and consumers), but it will still be at the discretion of Sony if they release more numbers or not. Remember, they just have to release figures for investors. If they weren't on the stock market, they wouldn't have to publizise anything at all. And 3rd party figures from NPD or Media Create will *always* be estimates based on statistic samples. How could that not be obvious.

See that's what I'm talking about. Sold to retail SHOULDN'T matter to investors alone. If not in context to what's sold to customers it's meaningless. What I'm talking about is this practice of leaving the most important part of the chain. They can discuss figures all they want but if the so-called consumers aren't buying then none of what ANYTHING they do matters. THAT'S what I'm talking about.

I KNOW HOW they do things. What I'm saying is that's not the right focus. And the attitude to the one who puts food on your table is what irks me. I'm not talking about ME. I'm talking about US. We who buy and purchase this stuff. If businesspeople think they are above the customers they're serving then they will go out of business.

At their discretion, my ass. That's the problem and the investors should have a problem with that as well. They put their own money in to fund the company's ventures and the company can't be straight about their true performance??? It's an insult when people pass off shipped or sold to retail numbers as evidence of success. That number matters when linked to sold to customers. Which makes it more easy to sell more to more retailers. XBox 360 is proof in pudding of sold to retailers not meaning a hill of beans. How many months have we seen 9 million?

I don't care about what IS practiced or what is legal. I care about what is RIGHT. Corporations got this powerful because of people not holding their practices to task. That's how stock market crashes happen. That's how the internet bubble popped. That's how goods ended up getting made overseas gutting jobs. That's how outsourcing got started. That's how Enron did its dirt.

How simple do I have to make it? If the customer is not included in the conversation who are you serving? The investor must be respected but if customer means nothing then why produce a product? He's the whole reason any of you got your positions in the first place.

A hotel manager who can't respect the maids who keep the rooms tidy needs to go under. A general who doesn't respect the work of the grunt privates in the trenches needs to be uprooted. The one who makes the machine work is ALWAYS the most important. The attitude of condescendation toward the very one who makes the whole thing possible will never be tolerated by me and it shouldn't by you either. A boss is never more important than his workers.

It's deception and I don't tolerate deception. What have you SOLD for REAL? How is your product REALLY doing? No non-GAAP nonsense. What is on the books now? I don't accept your "gladly pay you tomorrow for a hamburger today", Wimpy. Keep that check is in the mail garbage. This is important to customers as WELL as investors. I can't invest in a company that can't be straight with me. And I can't buy from a company that won't be straight with me.

It's a simple thing called honesty and with how corporations have conducted themselves so long I can see why my words seem to be from a foreign language. No one expects what should be done and have accepted deceptive practices.

And besides investors don't care about sold to retail; they care about net profit and the returns on their shares. 

John Lucas 

Ok, then tell me any other company that breaks out sold to retail vs. sold to consumer. Any industry.

If I were an investor, I would like to know how many units that have been bought by consumers. Since Sony is losing money on each console sold, I would want to know how many customers actually have the system so I know the potential softwares sales. The consoles sitting on the shelves does Sony no good. If they are trying to make money buy selling software, how are the systems at the retailers going to convince me to invest in Sony? Smart investors should know all the facts, especially the facts that will make money.

mancandy,