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Forums - Nintendo - Why do Zelda Console games take 5 years to develop.... ?

Pavolink said:
Jon-Erich said:
Pavolink said:


This.

OP: Incompetence and financial reasons are behind it.

Incompetence because, as much as I love Skyward Sword, it took them a lot to do a game without even a proper overwolrd. 4 years to do A Link Between Worlds, focused on remakes, etc... Aonuma doesn't know at this point what to do with the franchise anymore. He has to remade half of the franchise history to decide to go with a Zelda NES based game, and implementing other things from other games like Hyrule Warriors.

Financial reasons because, first, games are released on holidays, second to fit on celebrations like the 25th anniversary. It won't be a surprise if Zelda HD "fits" by the god's will with the 30th anniversary next year...

The better solutions is for Aonuma and Miyamoto to step down and let someone else with clear ideas to take control of the franchise. Someone like Koizumi. He was heavily involved in Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask.

Skyward Sword actually had an average development cycle, about three and a half years. A Link Between Worlds started development in 2011 and was finished by 2013. Again, another average develop cycle. In fact, let's analyze the release dates for Zelda games dating back to Twilight Princess since that release would take place 10 years before the intended release of the Wii U Zelda. And I'm only going by games that the Zelda team worked on since Aonuma's role in the remakes and spinoffs was that of an advisor/supervisor:

2006-The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess

2007-The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass

2007-Link's Crossbow Training (was worked on by EAD Group No. 3 aka the Zelda Team)

2009-The Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks

2011-The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword

2013-The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker HD

2013-The Legend of Zelda: A Link Between Worlds

2016-Zelda U

So on average, we had to wait about 2 years for a new Zelda game since 2006 and even before then. Only Zelda U seems to be breaking this tradition. Both the console and handheld Zelda games were worked on by the same team so you know they were never spending too much time with one game. With the exception of Link's Crossbow Training and Wind Waker HD, remakes and spinoffs were handled by other studios which allows EAD Group No. 3 to focus their attention on the main games. 

The worst game on this list was Link's Crossbow Training and that wasn't even bad for what it was supposed to be. Those other games were all pretty good. They all stand out from one another and don't feel like a repeat of the same experience and we seem to be getting them at a decent pace. So tell me again why Aonuma is doing such a bad job and why he needs to retire?

First off, there are 2 Zelda teams, one for handhelds and one for consoles. Thus, the line up is like this:

Handheld team:

Phantom Hourglass 2007 - previous game was Minish Cap in 2005

Spirit Tracks 2009 - 2 years

A Link to the past 2 2013 - 4 years

 

Homeconsole team

Twilight Princess 2006 - 4 years after The Wind Waker. The game was delayed a full year to release a Wii version

Skyward Sword 2011 - 5 years

Zelda HD - TBD (at least 5 years)

 

According to experts, remakes doesn't affect development of the main projects, in fact, in some cases like this one, it speed ups.

And btw, if they started ALBW development in 2011, what did the handheld team do between 2010 and 2011?

Two teams? Where did you get that information? Both console and handheld Zelda games are done by EAD Group No. 3. I'm sure the team is diveded whenever a handheld and console version of Zelda is in development at the same time, but if you look at the release dates, it supports the fact the team as a whole works on whatever needs to be worked on at the time. That being said, it would make sense for ALBW to start in 2011 because they were wrapping up development on Skyward Sword. In fact, here's a cited source from wikipedia regarding the development of Skyward Sword: 

 "In April 2008, game designer Shigeru Miyamoto confirmed the Zelda team to be "forming again to work on new games".[22] He later clarified at the E3 2008 trade show that the staff members had been working on a new installment in the series for the Wii.[23] The development of Skyward Sword started between the production cycles of the two The Legend of Zelda games for the Nintendo DS: it began after the completion of Phantom Hourglass and before the development of Spirit Tracks.[1] Director Hidemaro Fujibayashi and his team developed Skyward Sword and Spirit Tracks simultaneously until the latter was completed and all staff was transferred to work solely on the Wii game.[1] A report of Official Nintendo Magazine pointed out that the developers were still in the planning stages in November 2008, and that a first screening at E3 2009 was considered an optimistic prediction."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_Zelda:_Skyward_Sword#cite_note-24

Well how about that. The team who developed Skyward Sword were previously working on the DS games. Development on Skyward Sword didn't even begin until late 2008, exactly three years before the game was released. So when you consider the facts, it has to be said that Zelda games, for the most part, have the development cycles of normal AAA games and that Aonuma's management of EAD Group No. 3 is really good. We get a new Zelda game every 2-3 years. We never have to wait too long for them and Nintendo doesn't have to rely on yearly releases like Activision and Ubisoft do with their games. 

Also, wether remakes affect development schedules or not is almost completely irrelevent since the Zelda Team had absolutely nothing to do with remakes outside of Eiji Aonuma's supervision with the exception of Wind Waker which was developed by the Zelda team.



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Jon-Erich said:

Two teams? Where did you get that information? Both console and handheld Zelda games are done by EAD Group No. 3. I'm sure the team is diveded whenever a handheld and console version of Zelda is in development at the same time, but if you look at the release dates, it supports the fact the team as a whole works on whatever needs to be worked on at the time. That being said, it would make sense for ALBW to start in 2011 because they were wrapping up development on Skyward Sword. In fact, here's a cited source from wikipedia regarding the development of Skyward Sword: 

 "In April 2008, game designer Shigeru Miyamoto confirmed the Zelda team to be "forming again to work on new games".[22] He later clarified at the E3 2008 trade show that the staff members had been working on a new installment in the series for the Wii.[23] The development of Skyward Sword started between the production cycles of the two The Legend of Zelda games for the Nintendo DS: it began after the completion of Phantom Hourglass and before the development of Spirit Tracks.[1] Director Hidemaro Fujibayashi and his team developed Skyward Sword and Spirit Tracks simultaneously until the latter was completed and all staff was transferred to work solely on the Wii game.[1] A report of Official Nintendo Magazine pointed out that the developers were still in the planning stages in November 2008, and that a first screening at E3 2009 was considered an optimistic prediction."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_Zelda:_Skyward_Sword#cite_note-24

Well how about that. The team who developed Skyward Sword were previously working on the DS games. Development on Skyward Sword didn't even begin until late 2008, exactly three years before the game was released. So when you consider the facts, it has to be said that Zelda games, for the most part, have the development cycles of normal AAA games and that Aonuma's management of EAD Group No. 3 is really good. We get a new Zelda game every 2-3 years. We never have to wait too long for them and Nintendo doesn't have to rely on yearly releases like Activision and Ubisoft do with their games. 

Also, wether remakes affect development schedules or not is almost completely irrelevent since the Zelda Team had absolutely nothing to do with remakes outside of Eiji Aonuma's supervision with the exception of Wind Waker which was developed by the Zelda team.


That has been mentioned since ages ago. They released both The Wind Waker and A Link Between Worlds in the same year, just a couple of months apart, both developed by the same team? No. They have mentioned before that there are 2 teams, and sometimes they trade people, part of the staff of the hh team goes to the hc game and viceversa. In that way, they keep fresh the development and add new ideas.



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Pavolink said:
Jon-Erich said:

Two teams? Where did you get that information? Both console and handheld Zelda games are done by EAD Group No. 3. I'm sure the team is diveded whenever a handheld and console version of Zelda is in development at the same time, but if you look at the release dates, it supports the fact the team as a whole works on whatever needs to be worked on at the time. That being said, it would make sense for ALBW to start in 2011 because they were wrapping up development on Skyward Sword. In fact, here's a cited source from wikipedia regarding the development of Skyward Sword: 

 "In April 2008, game designer Shigeru Miyamoto confirmed the Zelda team to be "forming again to work on new games".[22] He later clarified at the E3 2008 trade show that the staff members had been working on a new installment in the series for the Wii.[23] The development of Skyward Sword started between the production cycles of the two The Legend of Zelda games for the Nintendo DS: it began after the completion of Phantom Hourglass and before the development of Spirit Tracks.[1] Director Hidemaro Fujibayashi and his team developed Skyward Sword and Spirit Tracks simultaneously until the latter was completed and all staff was transferred to work solely on the Wii game.[1] A report of Official Nintendo Magazine pointed out that the developers were still in the planning stages in November 2008, and that a first screening at E3 2009 was considered an optimistic prediction."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_Zelda:_Skyward_Sword#cite_note-24

Well how about that. The team who developed Skyward Sword were previously working on the DS games. Development on Skyward Sword didn't even begin until late 2008, exactly three years before the game was released. So when you consider the facts, it has to be said that Zelda games, for the most part, have the development cycles of normal AAA games and that Aonuma's management of EAD Group No. 3 is really good. We get a new Zelda game every 2-3 years. We never have to wait too long for them and Nintendo doesn't have to rely on yearly releases like Activision and Ubisoft do with their games. 

Also, wether remakes affect development schedules or not is almost completely irrelevent since the Zelda Team had absolutely nothing to do with remakes outside of Eiji Aonuma's supervision with the exception of Wind Waker which was developed by the Zelda team.


That has been mentioned since ages ago. They released both The Wind Waker and A Link Between Worlds in the same year, just a couple of months apart, both developed by the same team? No. They have mentioned before that there are 2 teams, and sometimes they trade people, part of the staff of the hh team goes to the hc game and viceversa. In that way, they keep fresh the development and add new ideas.

But you originally claimed that there was a handheld team and console team and there isn't. As I pointed out, the teams are created depending on what needs to be worked on. The whole point of this argument that I'm making is it goes entirely against your claims that the development of the handheld games have no effect on the development of the console games and the long development times for the console games is all because of Aonuma's incompetence. You tried to say that under Aonuma's leadership, it takes many years for one handheld game to be finished and many years for a console game to get finished and It's been proven already that much of the team will often work on both console and handheld games and if you look at what comes out of that team as a whole, we get a new Zelda game every 2-3 years, meaning that these games actually have the development cycle of an average game. You also tried to blame the long development cycles on the focus of remakes even though the 3DS Zelda remakes have nothing to do with what the Zelda team works on.

My point still stands. Aonuma is doing a great job with the Zelda team and we'll probably see at least two more original Zelda games come from that team in 5 years or less.



Check out my art blog: http://jon-erich-art.blogspot.com

Jon-Erich said:
Pavolink said:


That has been mentioned since ages ago. They released both The Wind Waker and A Link Between Worlds in the same year, just a couple of months apart, both developed by the same team? No. They have mentioned before that there are 2 teams, and sometimes they trade people, part of the staff of the hh team goes to the hc game and viceversa. In that way, they keep fresh the development and add new ideas.

But you originally claimed that there was a handheld team and console team and there isn't. As I pointed out, the teams are created depending on what needs to be worked on. The whole point of this argument that I'm making is it goes entirely against your claims that the development of the handheld games have no effect on the development of the console games and the long development times for the console games is all because of Aonuma's incompetence. You tried to say that under Aonuma's leadership, it takes many years for one handheld game to be finished and many years for a console game to get finished and It's been proven already that much of the team will often work on both console and handheld games and if you look at what comes out of that team as a whole, we get a new Zelda game every 2-3 years, meaning that these games actually have the development cycle of an average game. You also tried to blame the long development cycles on the focus of remakes even though the 3DS Zelda remakes have nothing to do with what the Zelda team works on.

My point still stands. Aonuma is doing a great job with the Zelda team and we'll probably see at least two more original Zelda games come from that team in 5 years or less.


http://nintendoeverything.com/a-look-at-the-team-sizes-and-development-periods-for-the-zelda-games/

 

As you can see, this proves my point. And in many ways. Skyward Sword development cycle is 5 years, not 3. A Link Between Worlds is 4, not 2. On top of that, this image also proves how the development cycle of past games are shorter than the new ones, which, once again, proves my point.



Proud to be the first cool Nintendo fan ever

Number ONE Zelda fan in the Universe

DKCTF didn't move consoles

Prediction: No Zelda HD for Wii U, quietly moved to the succesor

Predictions for Nintendo NX and Mobile


mZuzek said:
I feel like the comparisons with GTA here are a bit shallow. You guys are missing something.

Zelda has a lot of artistic creation behind it. For every new game, they have to come up with a new gameplay mechanic, artstyle, world, story, characters etc. etc. etc. to keep the game fresh. If you look at stuff like the artwork in Hyrule Historia, it's clear they spend a lot of time designing each and every part of the game to make it unique.

GTA doesn't have that. They have all the artistic process done from scratch - copy a real world town with realistic visuals, make a cliche story involving crime and corruption, and don't make lots of significant changes to gameplay or new mechanics/twists. They pretty much start development with the artistic process basically done.

The Zelda team delays the games because they shift focus during development with new ideas for what they want to create - GTA doesn't have this problem because from the start it's already set in stone what the game should play like.

You realize that statement can easily be turned around, right?

and to really claim that GTA's artistic process is all done at the start is laughable. I don't like GTA at all, but I don't see how you can dissrespect the work that goes into them.



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Pavolink said:
Jon-Erich said:

But you originally claimed that there was a handheld team and console team and there isn't. As I pointed out, the teams are created depending on what needs to be worked on. The whole point of this argument that I'm making is it goes entirely against your claims that the development of the handheld games have no effect on the development of the console games and the long development times for the console games is all because of Aonuma's incompetence. You tried to say that under Aonuma's leadership, it takes many years for one handheld game to be finished and many years for a console game to get finished and It's been proven already that much of the team will often work on both console and handheld games and if you look at what comes out of that team as a whole, we get a new Zelda game every 2-3 years, meaning that these games actually have the development cycle of an average game. You also tried to blame the long development cycles on the focus of remakes even though the 3DS Zelda remakes have nothing to do with what the Zelda team works on.

My point still stands. Aonuma is doing a great job with the Zelda team and we'll probably see at least two more original Zelda games come from that team in 5 years or less.


http://nintendoeverything.com/a-look-at-the-team-sizes-and-development-periods-for-the-zelda-games/

 

As you can see, this proves my point. And in many ways. Skyward Sword development cycle is 5 years, not 3. A Link Between Worlds is 4, not 2. On top of that, this image also proves how the development cycle of past games are shorter than the new ones, which, once again, proves my point.

Don't give me that. I'm not going by team size or man hours. I'm going by when they started and when they finished. It even shows that I was right about the development times. Of course the newer games are going to require bigger teams. The facts still stand. Skyward Sword's development started in 2008 and stopped in 2011. A Link Between Worlds started in 2011 and ended in 2013. Besides, what does any of this do with explaining why Aonuma isn't fit to run the Zelda team?



Check out my art blog: http://jon-erich-art.blogspot.com

Jon-Erich said:
Pavolink said:


http://nintendoeverything.com/a-look-at-the-team-sizes-and-development-periods-for-the-zelda-games/

 

As you can see, this proves my point. And in many ways. Skyward Sword development cycle is 5 years, not 3. A Link Between Worlds is 4, not 2. On top of that, this image also proves how the development cycle of past games are shorter than the new ones, which, once again, proves my point.

Don't give me that. I'm not going by team size or man hours. I'm going by when they started and when they finished. It even shows that I was right about the development times. Of course the newer games are going to require bigger teams. The facts still stand. Skyward Sword's development started in 2008 and stopped in 2011. A Link Between Worlds started in 2011 and ended in 2013. Besides, what does any of this do with explaining why Aonuma isn't fit to run the Zelda team?

1. Why does new games will requiere bigger developmente cycles if teams are bigger?

2.And the full cycle of Skyward Sword is 5 years. Even if development was just 3, pre-production was 2 and that counts also.

3. As already explained in many other threads, he doesn't know what to do with the franchise anymore. Zelda HD is based on Zelda NES (open world). This is most likely their own version adding some new features from previous games and some new ones like Hyrule Warriors. This game is not a new concept, like other games, from example The Wind Waker or Majora's Mask.



Proud to be the first cool Nintendo fan ever

Number ONE Zelda fan in the Universe

DKCTF didn't move consoles

Prediction: No Zelda HD for Wii U, quietly moved to the succesor

Predictions for Nintendo NX and Mobile


Pavolink said:
Jon-Erich said:
Pavolink said:


http://nintendoeverything.com/a-look-at-the-team-sizes-and-development-periods-for-the-zelda-games/

 

As you can see, this proves my point. And in many ways. Skyward Sword development cycle is 5 years, not 3. A Link Between Worlds is 4, not 2. On top of that, this image also proves how the development cycle of past games are shorter than the new ones, which, once again, proves my point.

Don't give me that. I'm not going by team size or man hours. I'm going by when they started and when they finished. It even shows that I was right about the development times. Of course the newer games are going to require bigger teams. The facts still stand. Skyward Sword's development started in 2008 and stopped in 2011. A Link Between Worlds started in 2011 and ended in 2013. Besides, what does any of this do with explaining why Aonuma isn't fit to run the Zelda team?

1. Why does new games will requiere bigger developmente cycles if teams are bigger?

2.And the full cycle of Skyward Sword is 5 years. Even if development was just 3, pre-production was 2 and that counts also.

3. As already explained in many other threads, he doesn't know what to do with the franchise anymore. Zelda HD is based on Zelda NES (open world). This is most likely their own version adding some new features from previous games and some new ones like Hyrule Warriors. This game is not a new concept, like other games, from example The Wind Waker or Majora's Mask.

1. Because you're dealing with newer, more spohisticated technology and bigger games. That requires more man hours. It's a common issues the industry is having. All things considering, development times for the console games have been somewhat consistant.

2. I don't like to count pre-production times. Pre-production is done during the development of the previous games, meaning that they couldn't start working on the next game until the previous one is finished. In pre-production, a teams size, development cycle, and budget are being considered. Again, this is a normal thing in the industry and has nothing to do with Aonima's inability to get a game out at a decent time.

3. He's not creating an open world game because he's out of ideas. He specifically said he has always wanted to create an open world game like what was on the NES but the technology wasn't there that allowed him to do such a thing in a 3D environment. If anything Aonuma has ideas that are thought of years ahead of time but he has to pick the right game for those ideas to be utilized. With Zelda HD, his ideas for that game could not be done before.



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Jon-Erich said:

1. Because you're dealing with newer, more spohisticated technology and bigger games. That requires more man hours. It's a common issues the industry is having. All things considering, development times for the console games have been somewhat consistant.

2. I don't like to count pre-production times. Pre-production is done during the development of the previous games, meaning that they couldn't start working on the next game until the previous one is finished. In pre-production, a teams size, development cycle, and budget are being considered. Again, this is a normal thing in the industry and has nothing to do with Aonima's inability to get a game out at a decent time.

3. He's not creating an open world game because he's out of ideas. He specifically said he has always wanted to create an open world game like what was on the NES but the technology wasn't there that allowed him to do such a thing in a 3D environment. If anything Aonuma has ideas that are thought of years ahead of time but he has to pick the right game for those ideas to be utilized. With Zelda HD, his ideas for that game could not be done before.

1. Not all of the new games are bigger than the predecessors.

2. Zelda team was able to have a more consistent release schedule. The entire industry struggling doesn't excuse Zelda team for doing the same.

3. He specifically mentioned the open world and Zelda NES. If the NES was able to handled an open world there's no excuse for the subsequent hardware. Also, he doesn't have any idea ahead of time as his ideas are from other games or it comes during development, not before.



Proud to be the first cool Nintendo fan ever

Number ONE Zelda fan in the Universe

DKCTF didn't move consoles

Prediction: No Zelda HD for Wii U, quietly moved to the succesor

Predictions for Nintendo NX and Mobile


TK14 said:
bigtakilla said:

Okay, a remake only sold 1.5 mil as a launch title. You can use that, but I don't think it's very indicative to what a new LoZ with 10+ million fan base will pull. And remember, it pulled that much with less than 3 million install base if I'm not mistaken. It's actually pretty impressive.

WWHD came out 11 months after launch...not really a launch title. And Wii U was probably around 4-5 million by that point if I remember.

I'm not saying Zelda U couldn't do a respectable 3-4 million or more, but I just think Nintendo may be worried about investing so much $$ into an open-world, HD Zelda game (previously, Skyward Sword was their most expensive game to make, and because of its late release after Wii was dead, it didn't sell as well as they wanted it to) and then not getting a healthy profit return on it because of Wii U's puny install base. They will no doubt think of Twilight Princess, how it sold incredibly well on the new console and still a decent amount on the low install-base of the GameCube, AND helped sell the Wii at launch because a new-Zelda launch title is a HUGE deal. So if they dual-release on NX, they increase the sales/profits of Zelda U, as well as guarantee a strong NX launch (if its even a console and not a handheld that wouldn't be able to handle Zelda U anyway), which means a lot less risk after investing so much into the development of Zelda U. 

3.91 mil, so true a little more than I though (and a little less than you were saying) and true 11 months which is a little longer than a release title, but still earlier than any must have on the console. (that would come in Nov with 3D World). So the truth kind of lands in between. Still, even for a little less than 4 mil, 1.5 is pretty freaking good.

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/editorial/35841/how-do-wii-us-sales-compare-to-nintendos-past-consoles (where I got the Sept numbers for the Wii U)