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Forums - Nintendo - Why can't other 2nd party Nintendo devs ever compete with RARE?

archer9234 said:
sundin13 said:
You just can't make retail games at the pace that you used to be able to...It just doesn't work.

Well, you could. IF Nintendo started Wii U game devolepment of titles in the 4th year of Wii. But that requires them to finalize system specs really far in advance. And leave certain hardware revisions  as the years progress.


Even still, you would have to develop multiple games normally, but not release them until a bunch were done (which would be ridiculous and pointless)...



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thetonestarr said:
I've honestly been wondering the same thing. Retro is "supposed" to be the new Rare, but really just in that they work with Donkey Kong IPs. They don't release anywhere near as many titles as Rare did, and I really am amazed at the consistently high quality that Rare turned out, when they had such a rapid development cycle.

No other developer has ever had that, including Rare themselves, since then.

Rare also had a giant head start on the N64.  During the development of Donkey Kong Country they allotted large sums of money to buy expensive Silicon Graphics workstations (SGI Indigo 2, Challenge L/XL) because they developed a new rendering technique they called ACM (Advanced Computer Modeling) that required intensive processing power.  They were also one of the first studio's in the UK and Europe to invest so heavily in the expensive SGI workstations.

Rareware's prowess and skill with with the SGI machines impressed Nintendo greatly and was probably one of the reasons Nintendo chose Silicon Graphics (SGI) to develop the graphics processor for the Ultra 64.  I think development of Goldeneye started on Silicon Graphics Onyx machines before the N64 was finalized.



NoirSon said:
theRepublic said:
NoirSon said:
The biggest hurdle appears to be Nintendo itself.

During the SNES, N64 and early parts of the GC era, Nintendo was a lot more open, experimental and less restrictive with the types of games it let its second party developers work on.

1. Since, a quarter or about half way through the Wii's life cycle there was a shift that contracted most games Nintendo would put support behind. We are only now seeing Nintendo shift away from that stance in terms of the games it supports but the fact is had Rare stuck around they wouldn't have done nearly as many original games as they did in the N64 era.

2. Retro could have done more games in the Wii era then Metroid Prime 3 (and technically Trilogy) and Donkey Kong Country Returns, Nintendo just didn't let them pull the trigger on allocating sources to other projects.

1. Is there any evidence at all for this?  Nintendo didn't support Rare's Conker's Bad Fur Day back on the N64 for just one example.  What change are you talking about?  Nintendo has always been careful about releasing only quality (and mostly family friendly) software under their name.

2. So people were just sitting around Retro doing nothing?  They didn't have more resources to allocate.  Games take a lot longer to make now due to the vastly increased complexity.  I'm not sure why the OP, and some people in the thread refuse to acknowledge this.

1. Yeah, Conker's Bad Gur Day was released on the N64, they also release Geist and Eternal Darkness on the GC. As I said the contraction seemed to occur about a quarter or about half way through the Wii's life cycle. They obviously still released quality games and took chances, but you can name a number of games they decided not to release sequels to on the Wii despite the system and its motion controls fitting the game play like 1080 Snowboarding, Star Fox or F-Zero. Then you have some less then family friendly games that could have helped parched the drought in the Wii's Western (or NA in particular) release schedule between their own major releases such as Diaster: Day of Crisis, Zangeki no Reginleiv, Fatal Frame/Zero 4 and the remake of Fatal Frame/Zero 2 and nearly the three extremely well done Operation Rainfall games. These were small releases that could have helped during the back half of the Wii's life cycle, heck not cutting of the creation of games like Metriod Prime Trilogy, Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn, Punch-Out and a number of other games less then 18 after their release would have also helped in that regard.

2. I agree with you but the fact is Nintendo controls Retro and how much they have to work with. Nintendo was more content for most of the Wii's life cycle to have Retro work on either Donkey Kong Country or working to help other teams (such as their contributions toward Mario Kart 7 stages) then actually working on new software. Retro isn't a massive team but they should still be large enough that you can have some of them working on one big project and others working on something smaller even if it is only meant to be a eShop or DS/3DS title. If other Nintendo teams like Intelligent systems and even Monolith Soft can work on multiple projects Retro should have output then they do unless they are being muzzled on what they actually are able to do. We get several open sandbox games and their sequels in the last generation, while AAA development is hard and a much longer process, just putting out software can still be done in reasonable time if effort and the main company is willing.

What I said was that Nintendo didn't support Conker.  They refused to publish it.  Rare ended up publishing it themselves in NA and THQ did in Europe.

Nintendo has only so many resources to create and release games.  They have to make choices.  They can't just greenlight every idea.  They have limited manpower, limited time, and limited money.  Some games that appeared the previous gen don't get a sequel.  Others do.  Some brand new games get made.  And some games make an appearance from 2 generations or more ago.  An example of that being Sin and Punishment.

I wanted to check to see the number of games Nintendo has published for their most recent consoles.  This is for all regions.

Number of Nintendo Published Games Per Year (Any Region)

Year 1 Year 2 Year 3 Year 4 Year 5 Year 6 Year 7 Year 8 Total
N46 ('96-'01) 7 8 12 12 14 2 --- --- 55
Gamecube ('01-'06) 4 10 13 13 13 4 --- --- 57
Wii ('06-'13) 3 15 13 14 13 8 11 1 78
WiiWare ('08-'10) 8 10 9 --- --- --- --- --- 27
Wii U ('12-'14) 4 13 4 --- --- --- --- --- 21
Wii U eShop ('13-'14) 8 4 --- --- --- --- --- --- 12

This chart certainly surprised me.  With as prolific as Rare was during the N64 years, I expected the overall total to be much higher than the Gamecube and Wii years.  Not true.  Perceptions don't always equal reality.  The Wii does have 5 "New Play Control" games in there, so you could knock those out of the list.  Yes, some games are region specific, but this gives a rough idea of Nintendo's output.

I do wish NOA would have localized some more games, like the ones you mention.  However, that is an NOA problem in specific, not Nintendo in general.  Those games were all published in Japan, Europe, and Australia, so I don't know what the hell NOA's problem was.  If you want to argue that Nintendo should not be wasting time with games that will not release in all regions, I will 100% agree with that.  Or if you want to argue that NOA should be bringing in games that were localized into English anyway, I will 100% agree with that too.

I don't know what to tell you about Retro.  I can only assume they are working at full capacity.  There would be no reason for people to be sitting around doing nothing.  This is everything we know they have been involved in so far:

2002 - Metroid Prime
2004 - Metroid Prime 2
2006 - Metroid Prime Hunters
2007 - Metroid Prime 3
2009 - Metroid Prime Trilogy
2010 - DKCR
2011 - MK7
2013 - DKCR 3D
2014 - DKC Tropical Freeze

So they were working on smaller projects as DKC TF was being developed.  Unfortunately, no one is going to get excited about them co-developing a game we knew was coming anyway and a port.  I understand they did the DK assets in MK7 and the retro tracks.  Not exactly sexy work, but someone had to do it and Nintendo gave them the job.



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MohammadBadir said:
Silicon knights did a badass job on Eternal Darkness back in the day...

I heard that, but honestly it was one of the crappiest survival and horror games I have ever played. It had terrible balance issues, and some really annoying gimmicks, that didn't really work.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

Rare's games were pretty enough, at least on a technical level, but I wasn't impressed with the way most of them played. I wasn't surprised when Nintendo parted ways with them. They were already starting to go downhill, although Perfect Dark was pretty good.



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foxtail said:
thetonestarr said:
I've honestly been wondering the same thing. Retro is "supposed" to be the new Rare, but really just in that they work with Donkey Kong IPs. They don't release anywhere near as many titles as Rare did, and I really am amazed at the consistently high quality that Rare turned out, when they had such a rapid development cycle.

No other developer has ever had that, including Rare themselves, since then.

Rare also had a giant head start on the N64.  During the development of Donkey Kong Country they allotted large sums of money to buy expensive Silicon Graphics workstations (SGI Indigo 2, Challenge L/XL) because they developed a new rendering technique they called ACM (Advanced Computer Modeling) that required intensive processing power.  They were also one of the first studio's in the UK and Europe to invest so heavily in the expensive SGI workstations.

Rareware's prowess and skill with with the SGI machines impressed Nintendo greatly and was probably one of the reasons Nintendo chose Silicon Graphics (SGI) to develop the graphics processor for the Ultra 64.  I think development of Goldeneye started on Silicon Graphics Onyx machines before the N64 was finalized.


That explains the abnormally high quantity, but still doesn't explain the abnormally high quality.



 SW-5120-1900-6153

spurgeonryan said:
theRepublic said:

If you are ok with N64 level graphics, then developers could pump out games at the rate that Rare did.  If you expect more, then it is going to take a lot more time.  Simple as that.


Come on now! That was cutting edge back then. Maybe cutting edge for a cartridge, but still cutting edge. Today's tools are all the more advanced and we have so many more programs and classes that developers should be able to do the same with today's visuals. Plus remember, I asked for even just 75 percent of the games. Not even from one company. I believe Nintendo has quite a few "2nd Party" devs out there. Plus Nintendo itself.

They were able to put out that many games with what they had to work with back then. Do not tell me it is harder these days to make a game.

Cars are more advanced, does it take longer to make cars these days, or are they still on a line? Water bottles are made of plants with no BPA, no glass, and whatever else, does it take longer to make them? No. Because the technology has advanced and they put the same amount of plant making machines in the place of the old BPA making machines. The same goes with Nintendo devs. They had photoshop 1.0 and now have photoshop 10.0. I realize that is probably not something they use, but you get the idea. On top of that the developers have been trained on all of this new programs.

Doing games and CGI in general doesn't really work that way. That's why movies take over a year in post to finish the stuff. Back in Star Wars days. They took 4 months. The more detail in the game, the more longer it takes a human to work on it. Compare Mario's model in M64 to Lara Croft in TR2013. You could knock out Mario's model in couple of a days. Lara would take weeks just getting her hair and clothes to not colide all the time. It's the amount of detail into the object that takes the time. Not really the hardwares power.



spurgeonryan said:
archer9234 said:
spurgeonryan said:


Come on now! That was cutting edge back then. Maybe cutting edge for a cartridge, but still cutting edge. Today's tools are all the more advanced and we have so many more programs and classes that developers should be able to do the same with today's visuals. Plus remember, I asked for even just 75 percent of the games. Not even from one company. I believe Nintendo has quite a few "2nd Party" devs out there. Plus Nintendo itself.

They were able to put out that many games with what they had to work with back then. Do not tell me it is harder these days to make a game.

Cars are more advanced, does it take longer to make cars these days, or are they still on a line? Water bottles are made of plants with no BPA, no glass, and whatever else, does it take longer to make them? No. Because the technology has advanced and they put the same amount of plant making machines in the place of the old BPA making machines. The same goes with Nintendo devs. They had photoshop 1.0 and now have photoshop 10.0. I realize that is probably not something they use, but you get the idea. On top of that the developers have been trained on all of this new programs.

Doing games and CGI in general doesn't really work that way. That's why movies take over a year in post to finish the stuff. Back in Star Wars days. They took 4 months. The more detail in the game, the more longer it takes a human to work on it. Compare Mario model in M64 to Lara Croft in TR2013. You could knock out Mario model in half a day. Lara would take weeks just getting her hair to not colide all the time.

I just found out that SM3DW had only 90 people working on it. It had a ton of content, and looked pretty nice. If they had just three devs making two games for us a year a piece, I think many would be fine with that. Along with Nintendo making 5-6 games as well like they usually do or more.

That's all up to Nintendo if they want to hire more teams to work at the same time. That's the only way the system wouldn't have droughts. If they want to ignore 3rd parties. But they so far can't or won't for whatever reason.