2) So their numbers are final, it's the worst selling game in the franchise. You also don't seem to understand a difference between shipped and sold through but that's irrelevent because it's still the worst.

3) Dante's not an idiot before DMC4? Have you ever played DMC3? He was a bit of a smarmy twat in DMC1 as well, just not nearly played up as much so it came across to fans as cooler.

Don't call DMC4's gameply slow and clunky then defend DmC. No auto lock-on means less control and a crappier camera. It also means no directional inputs meaning crappier combat. Style rankings are utter garbage in DmC. Bosses are a terrible joke. Weapons aren't balanced. Red and blue enemy types for red and blue weapons is a lame combat mechanic. Competent aerial combat is no longer an achievement. "What are styles lulz." Guns are garbage. Devil trigger is completely lame and is reduced to a breather that throws enemies into the air while you regenerate health. Woo platforming, because that's why I play DmC, mediocre platforming elements as a big part of the game.

DMC4 looks better because it runs on a better engine. DmC had the same resolution, lower frame rate, and thanks to the crappy engine the texture just decide to pop in when they feel like it. Yes lighting and bloom effects are higher quality but the game came out 5 years later.

That's without getting into mischaracterization of characters. Like Sparda being a middle aged balding man who died running.

"That's without getting into mischaracterization of characters. Like Sparda being a middle aged balding man who died running."

Not sure if you've heard DmC is a reboot that takes place in an alternate reality, the characters can't be 'mischaracterised'. They are different characters existing in a seperate continuity. Thus they can't be mischaracterised. Learn to do your research first.

Actually it was DMC4's characters that were grossley mischaracterised. DMC4 Dante makes homo-erotic posses, Lady and Trish are butchered into Playboy fanservice, and Nero and Kyrie are based on Hollywood storytelling. Which Capcom admitted. For the original DMC fans this is utterly disrespectful to what the series originated from and unacceptable as Devil May Cry. A fact you seem to be ignoring... I wonder why? Is it possible you only ever played DMC4?

"DMC4 looks better because it runs on a better engine."

... Lol. Based on what facts? DMC4 looks okay, but Capcom's MT Framework hardly produces games on the calibre of UE3. Batman, DmC, Mass Effect, Gears of War. Theres a reason this engine has produced such a fine looking DMC game. This is evident in Capcom's own Resident Evil 6, a game which is well no need to explain why thats a bad game. Thats not necessarily means MT Framework is bad? But why would Ninja Theory settle for an engine like that when they can produce a game of DmC's calibre on UE3?

"DmC had the same resolution, lower frame rate"

DmC can't have a higher framerate on consoles. NT/Capcom pushed the consoles as far as they could go. Yet if you want to talk FPS, then why not compare the PC version? DMC4 is locked at a maximum of 120 FPS and DmC runs at a maximum of 200 FPS. Yet you are avodiing this comparsion because you know DMC4 is inferior in this area.

"You also don't seem to understand a difference between shipped and sold through but that's irrelevent because it's still the worst."

Like I said, get in it writing from Capcom that there numbers are shipped. As it stands Capcom's numbers are final, not yours.

Dante's not an idiot before DMC4? Have you ever played DMC3? He was a bit of a smarmy twat in DMC1 as well, just not nearly played up as much so it came across to fans as cooler.

Damn straight, DMC1 Dante was pure awesome. Not and idiot what so ever. Thats just what DMC4 fans stay to justify the ridiculously camp behaviour of DMC4 Dante, and his homo erotic poses, and those idiotic red homosexual cowboy boots. The character was very far from previous iterations. Calling DMC1 Dante a smarmy twat is insulting to longtime fans of the series, you woulnd't understand that only being a fan of DMC4.

"No auto lock-on means less control and a crappier camera"

How is manualling locking onto an oppenent giving the player less control?

How is a fully controllable camera inferior to a partially controllable, slowly reacting, mostly locked camera perspectives?

"Don't call DMC4's gameply slow and clunky then defend DmC."

I'm defending Capcom Japan and Hideaki Itsuno who designed DmC with respect to the serious problems that plagued DMC4's slow, clunky gameplay. If you were a DMC fan you would examine what Capcom have discussed, you would investigate the mechanics as I have instead of pretending that Capcom Japan don't know how to develop a DMC game.

"Woo platforming, because that's why I play DmC, mediocre platforming elements as a big part of the game."

I doubt you've played a DMC game before DMC4.

"It also means no directional inputs meaning crappier combat"

Directionaly inputs restricted your playstyle resulting in clunky gameplay. DmC allows the player to put any move anywhere they want. I guess this improvment is bad though... Aerial combat has been greatly improved.

Reboots are a retelling of a story with similar elements, if you're just going to squat down and crap on the original plot then here's an idea, make your own game. You know, instead of marketing it as DMC and failing to capture anything likable at all from the original series. There's literally no reason for the series to be called DmC as all it has in common is demons and names, it doesn't even have the DMC business the games are named after.

MT Frameworks was a technically superior engine when DMC4 was being developed. NT didn't use UE3 because it was the most powerful. Both games ran on the same native resolution, but DMC4 had double the frame rate and was developed FIVE YEARS BEFORE DmC. The fact that there's even debate on the topic says it all.

The fact that the PC version finally runs at a higher frame rate means nothing in regards to the fact it was designed with 30 in mind on the top consoles. Most players don't even notice the difference in FPS beyond a point so If you're trying to say the improvement from 120-200 is anything close to the improvement from 30 to 60 you're crazy.

The website you link supplies numbers of units sold and shipped, not sold by retail unless you believe it's 100% sell through rate. It doesn't matter either way because it's still the worst selling title in the DmC series by a long shot.

I've gotten every DMC, special edition and HD collections included, as a day one. You must never have played DMC3, arguably the best in the franchise, if you think Dante in DMC4 was out of character. You hate on DMC4 for being "Hollywood" when the inspiration for Hideki Kamiya's design was looking like a cool hero with over-the-top Hollywood-like presentation.

No lock on or directional inputs means less control over your combos, dumbs down combat, and necessitates slower combat. Dante in DmC is slower than Dante in DMC4 by almost 20%. That's before Turbo mode. Your combo potential is crippled by less moves and the fact enemies required the use of certain weapons on them. Devil Trigger is still garbage in DmC.  Making Aerial combat easy does not make aerial combat good.

Slow and clunky lol.

"Reboots are a retelling of a story with similar elements"

Excatly what DmC does, unlike DMC4 which squats down and craps on the original game with mischaracterisations. A point which you have avoided because you know that DMC4 Donte is nothing like the original character. I will repost that point again because you seem to be hiding from the truth:

Actually it was DMC4's characters that were grossley mischaracterised. DMC4 Dante makes homo-erotic posses, Lady and Trish are butchered into Playboy fanservice, and Nero and Kyrie are based on Hollywood storytelling. Which Capcom admitted. For the original DMC fans this is utterly disrespectful to what the series originated from and unacceptable as Devil May Cry. A fact you seem to be ignoring... I wonder why? Is it possible you only ever played DMC4?

"MT Frameworks was a technically superior engine when DMC4 was being developed."

Like I said get in it writing from Capcom that you are right and they are wrong, get it in writing that Hideaki Itsuno wishes he went with UE3. They chose this engine because MT Framework wasn't fit for the job they wanted, simple as

"Both games ran on the same native resolution, but DMC4 had double the frame rate and was developed FIVE YEARS BEFORE DmC. The fact that there's even debate on the topic says it all."

Facepalm at this point again which I already shcooled you on. DmC can't run at a higher framerate on consoles because the hardware is not powerful enough to allow a game running with that level of performance to function at 60 FPS. DMC4 can do that on consoles because its using less processing power. Thus when we look at the games running on PC we see the truth of the matter where the hardware is limitless.

What debate is there when it comes is there now? On PC DmC runs at 200+ FPS and DMC4 runs at 120 FPS. Yet you seem to think that blaming the developers for the hardware limits of the console is acceptable? Are you brain damaged? Capcom/Ninja Theory don't control the hardware of the PS3/360. How is it in their control to obtain 60 FPS on consoles? And why are you avoiding the fact that DMC4 runs at 120 FPS compared to DmC's 200 FPS when the hardware is unlimited? Are you deleberatly lying to cover up for DMC4 being an imiation of Hollywood movies and thus disrespectful to the orignal fans?

"The website you link supplies numbers of units sold and shipped, not sold by retail unless you believe it's 100% sell through rate."

Again, get it in writing from Capcom that their numbers are wrong and that your numbers are more accurate than theres. Besides the original point you mentioned was that the DMC HD collection sold more copies, which according to Capcom themselves you were dead wrong about.

"If you think Dante in DMC4 was out of character. You hate on DMC4 for being "Hollywood" when the inspiration for Hideki Kamiya's design was looking like a cool hero with over-the-top Hollywood-like presentation."

Link? Where does Hideki Kamiya say that DMC1 was designed to imitate Hollywood movies? Besides your using Hideki Kamiya's now, well even he's admitted that only DMC1 is the true iteration of the character. Certainly not DMC4 Donte, who was a great mischaracterisation of an icon.

"I've gotten every DMC, special edition and HD collections included, as a day one."

Then prove it, give me your PS3/Xbox username and I will see if your telling the truth.

"No lock on or directional inputs means less control over your combos, dumbs down combat, and necessitates slower combat."

False, DMC4 is a slower, clunkier game, don't know what you mean by dumbed down comabt, or maybe you were too dumb to understand how to play DmC? DMC4 gives the player less control because of the poor camera and the automatic lock-on which doesn't let you select the enemy you want. Lying for your Hollywood imitation won't save you here.

"Dante in DmC is slower than Dante in DMC4 by almost 20%"

DmC and DMC4 are running at about the same speed, some moves are slower, some moves are faster. DmC is actually faster when comparing the Angel weapons, which function a lot faster than Rebellion. DMC4 is also using a lower animation quality with less motion in Dante's moves. DmC adds more visual flair into Dante's motions.

"Slow and clunky lol."

Your absolutely right, that video is a perfect example of WHY DMC4 is slow and clunky. Fast animations are fine yes, but the game is slow and clunky. Thats why that player only engages one opponent at a time, and forces the enemy into the air as much as possible to avoid the enemies attacks because Dante's Evading is clunky and slow.

What I'm reffering to of course is automatic lock-on. When engaged Dante slows his speed down to walking, he physically moves slower, DmC Dante never slows down and any point, giving the player more speed when manouvering in combat. DmC Dante can also Dodge in any direction compared to DMC4's locked Dodgin angles. Previous games restrict Dante's movement to an enemy radius, other enemies are ignored, you lose precision and Dante's movement is slower. While he can only Dodge in certain directions, making his movement very clunky when engaging groups of enemies.

These are things you need to investigate instead of looking at a game running on Turbo Mode. There were serious probelms with DMC4's slow, clunky body movement, and the slow automatic lock-on. Things that needed to change with DmC. You can't be a DMC fan if you wanted that type of gameplay to continue, it wasn't in the best interest of the series, neither was Dante behaving like a homosexual with those ridiculous red cowboy boots.

oh boy, DmC discussion

I'll just say that DmC is one of the best games i've played in 20 years of gaming and leave it at that. And yeah, better than all the previous DMCs. Ninja Theory is the most underrated non-indie developer out there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjsuGB3S92Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMH2JT7AMM0

Yeah new DmC sure is faster than Dmc4 lol. 

Both DMC4 and DmC are lackluster by Devil May Cry standards and that's what matters the most!

This is just going to go in circles. All I get from this is that people who are new or less capable in the genre seem to like the dumbed down control scheme and difficulty of DmC. Saying DMC4 is slower because you "walk" while locked on is proof that you have no idea what's going on. The people who prefer DmC's combat over DMC just aren't as good at the genre, I get it.

The importance a player puts on lockon tells you all you need to know. Bayonetta is a great example. The higher tier you are the more important it becomes. You can play through the whole game and never use it, but as player skill and difficulties go up and prioritizing enemies becomes more and more important, you use lock on more.

"Saying DMC4 is slower because you "walk" while locked on is proof that you have no idea what's going on."

It is slower. That lack of speed reduces your manoverability, its clunky to switch to walking. Dante can't actually move properly when you hold the button lock (R1). He can't physically move in certain directions, he will strafe around one enemy, restricted to that enemy's radius. This was very clunky when dealing with multiple enemies. He also can't Evade enemies in more than two directions, unless the Trickester style was equiped.

Even then that dosen't solve Nero's problem nor does it solve how you are limited with your options because Trickster limits your options to that style. Its tedious to switch from one style to another just to be able to Evade an enemy properly. DmC allows the player to access all of Dante's combat options without the tedium of changing styles. Not to mention the greatly improved mobility of Dante during the air. All those Evasion options are also available in the air, where Capcom confirmed they were aiming for greatly fluidty and gameplay depth.

"The people who prefer DmC's combat over DMC just aren't as good at the genre, I get it."

Then prove it, if DmC is as easy as you claim, show me your PS3 trophy data and your name at the top of the PS3 leaderbaords, or maybe some video's showcasing the ease of what you say? If you claim to know what your talking about, why don't you prove it? While your at it I want to see if you've actually finished any of the previous DMC games, unless your claiming you can't give me your PS3 username for whatever reason? If yoru so capable a player as you claim let me see you DMC HD collection trophies?

"The importance a player puts on lockon tells you all you need to know."

DmC uses a fully functioning manual lock-on, the difference is you can't see the reticle. You don't need a recticle since you know where the lock-on is based on Dante's direction and the camera position.

Bayonetta is way better than DMC4, and its better than DmC in some respects. I never used button lock because all of Bayonetta's moves can be performed without button lock, and Bayonetta never slows down when you hold R1, nor is her movement ever slowed down by the button lock.

Man all these extra posts and it's not about the games actually coming out.