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Forums - Nintendo - I feel like Nintendo is in big trouble at this point. Here's why:

Soundwave said:
oniyide said:
Soundwave said:
RolStoppable said:

The bolded shows that I never implied what you talk about in the fourth paragraph. This isn't the first time in this thread that you are trying to misrepresent my position.

As for some of the Nintendo games you mentioned, yes, they had competitors emerge (Nintendogs and Brain Training). But Wii Sports and Wii Fit (especially Sports) haven't come under as heavy fire, and neither of them can be done on smartphones and tablets. That's the point you continue to ignore, because you believe in the casual games label that makes all games you don't like equal. The question that needs to be asked is if the Wii's potential was fully realized and hardly anyone would say that it was. It's not just simple and accessible games, it's simple and accessible games with a unique and appealing control scheme. That's what sets the Wii apart from other products, plus local multiplayer on the same screen.

And once again, Nintendo was counting on the Wii audience to buy a GameCube. That was their mistake. If they hadn't been so much in love with the GC, they would have realized that the Wii U Gamepad contradicted the appeal of the Wii.


 The problem is you've romanticized this notion to a degree that you can no longer see the actual market realities of today. I mean I get it, wasn't it wonderful that Nintendo had discovered this new magic formula that allowed them to have such tremendous success? It was sweet to watch Sony/MS sputter in response, surely it could've lasted longer? It's easy to take that and think of it as dogma, kind of like a guy who has success with a pick-up line once and then assumes that it should work on every girl, every time he tries it again.

Smartphones don't need to exactly mimic Wii Sports to get the same (actually larger) audience. In fact it's an asset that they don't, the casual audience wants new/different types of experiences, Angry Birds is successful because it's Angry Birds, not Bird Sports. The ecosystem offer by the smartphone/tablet business offers them a flood of constant new software. What smartphones/tablets DO ape (very successfully) from the Touch Generation/Wii line is the same basic foundation though of easy-to-play arcadey games that any casual or novice player can get into quickly. It's no coincidence either that most of the successful iPhone/Android games feature non-threatening cartoony/simple graphics (ahem right out of Nintendo's playbook), not realistic graphics of the Playstation/XBox ilk. 

The novelty of the control input is less important, what's important is the control interface is suitably user friendly and intuitive. No button multitouch fits the bill as well (maybe even better) than waving a wand around. People don't want controller novelties for novelty sake alone, otherwise Nintendo would just introduce a dozen weird controllers like maybe a game machine that's controlled by bouncing a ball (which would likely flop). Consumers aren't *that* stupid, they would eventually see that strategy for what it is -- desperation. 

I agree with him that WIi Sports and Fit cant really be replicated on phones. But here is my question do people really care about them? no not anymore not in the numbers they used to put up. It seems like you said some people have romantized those games. Fact is people will and have become tired of them. IMHO motion gaming as well.  The real question is is the audience for those games big enough anymore where a another actual Wii console (same thing as Wii but more powerful) would have been successful. I think no.


That's the thing -- you don't need to replicate yesterdays hits ... you just need to come up with tomorrow's crazes. And smartphones/tablets are quite honestly eating the lunch of not just Nintendo but Sony/MS when it comes to that in a casual-appeal categorey. 

What iOS/Android gaming does successfully ape from Nintendo's Touch Generations/Wii _____ line is the formula of easy to play games that are fun in short burts (not everyone is a core gamer that likes to play for 5 hours a day, some people just want to have a few minutes of fun), that are easy to play, and are inviting ... notice how most blockbuster game apps are colorful/simple graphics, not like Infinity Blade which tries to look like an XBox 360 game. 

And I do get why there is some denial here from some Nintendo fans on this ... in a way it isn't fair. It's not fair that Nintendo found this wonderful secret and really they only got to enjoy it for a few years. Nintendo themselves is probably in a bit of deep shock over all this too ... how could things go from so good to so bad in just a few years seemingly? I think Iwata probably has driven himself to sickness in a way because of all this. It wasn't supposed to be this way, but that is part of what makes the game industry great -- there are no short cuts or magic formulas. You gotta work for what you get every cycle. 

tomorrow's crazes is easier said than done and that is the problem.

Thats just it though it wasnt a secret. At all, people knew about it, but as Rol said pulling it off is VERY hard to do which is why most dont even attempt. Hell alot of us called it years ago. We said that it wouldnt last forever hell it didnt even last the whole gen as the last Wii years it dropped like a rock, but we were labelled as haters. It isnt fair but not for the reasons you listed. It isnt fair because Ninty is in a place IMHO where they HAVE to chase the next blue ocean craze they cannot fight MS or Sony on the red ocean front they will lose time and time again.  Nintendo as a brand, not Wii. is just not as popular as it used to be and it will never get that way again. I think thats where the true denial comes from. Wii gave some fans a false sense of security, yeah Ninty is back everyone loves them like we do. Here comes WIi U; yeah not really where right back to GC levels. Nintendo as a brand at least compared to SOny and a lesser extent MS is kinda niche. There is nothing wrong with that but the sooner fans understand that and stop the denial the happier they will be.



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oniyide said:
Mr Khan said:

The key to the Wii was about thinking outside the box, and you saw that with much of the leading software which was innovative rather than iterative: Wii Sports brought the core concept to life, Wii Fit helped expand it in other directions: Wii Sports Resort brought more depth in several dimensions: more accurate control and deeper games.

Wii U attempts to be iterative, to deliver the same experience as before, over again. This is the definition of a red ocean console which doesn't break new ground. Meanwhile Wii U was too expensive, designed around what is, ultimately, a very traditional controller, and attempted to capitalize on the idea of "retrieving the lost core gamer."


So wouldnt just releasing a WIi 2 been the same damn thing? a more powerful Wii? What should they have done?

The power should have been used towards creating new experiences in the vein of new experiences the Wii brought us. "How" is difficult to say. The Vitality Sensor was one such idea, one that i still think had a quiet brilliance and why it's a shame it hasn't been realized (yet. QoL is coming, after all).

Now it would entail nintendo branching further away from gaming as we know it, but their core experience for fans like me is still profitable enough (as long as they're selling on good-selling hardware, which they need proper blue ocean values to make).

The key with the story of the Wii through the end of 2009 was that it was all about new experiences. 2010 was when Nintendo started to miss the boat and rehash. The Wii U is them running a bunch of rehashes again, with Mario Kart 8 feeling like the first game that wasn't stuck in the shadow of Wii-era software (although Pikmin 3 and Wonderful 101 certainly attempted to be pathbreaking, both are of niche appeal to begin with. Super Mario 3D World was iterative, but something that needed to happen, refining the formula from the lackluster 3D Land into something great, but still unoriginal ultimately)



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Experimental42 said:
Nintendo's online infrastructure is as good as it needs to be. It's probably the dumbest thing I've seen on these boards, in my short time here, to say not supporting 32+ players is a flaw in Nintendo's online capabilities. It's obvious Nintendo will never be a console for large FPS games, so if anyone wants to respond to this, can you at least point to ONE Nintendo title, barring bad fps ports, that would benefit from more than 12 online at once?

I'm going to say you can't.

I actually made this point a while back in a more thorough rebuttal of the OP before i decided it wasn't quite worth the energy. Officially, Wii's WiFi Connection was capable of 32 players simultaneously. No game ever achieved more than 12, but that was just because no game wanted to.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

oniyide said:
Soundwave said:
oniyide said:
Soundwave said:
RolStoppable said:

The bolded shows that I never implied what you talk about in the fourth paragraph. This isn't the first time in this thread that you are trying to misrepresent my position.

As for some of the Nintendo games you mentioned, yes, they had competitors emerge (Nintendogs and Brain Training). But Wii Sports and Wii Fit (especially Sports) haven't come under as heavy fire, and neither of them can be done on smartphones and tablets. That's the point you continue to ignore, because you believe in the casual games label that makes all games you don't like equal. The question that needs to be asked is if the Wii's potential was fully realized and hardly anyone would say that it was. It's not just simple and accessible games, it's simple and accessible games with a unique and appealing control scheme. That's what sets the Wii apart from other products, plus local multiplayer on the same screen.

And once again, Nintendo was counting on the Wii audience to buy a GameCube. That was their mistake. If they hadn't been so much in love with the GC, they would have realized that the Wii U Gamepad contradicted the appeal of the Wii.


 The problem is you've romanticized this notion to a degree that you can no longer see the actual market realities of today. I mean I get it, wasn't it wonderful that Nintendo had discovered this new magic formula that allowed them to have such tremendous success? It was sweet to watch Sony/MS sputter in response, surely it could've lasted longer? It's easy to take that and think of it as dogma, kind of like a guy who has success with a pick-up line once and then assumes that it should work on every girl, every time he tries it again.

Smartphones don't need to exactly mimic Wii Sports to get the same (actually larger) audience. In fact it's an asset that they don't, the casual audience wants new/different types of experiences, Angry Birds is successful because it's Angry Birds, not Bird Sports. The ecosystem offer by the smartphone/tablet business offers them a flood of constant new software. What smartphones/tablets DO ape (very successfully) from the Touch Generation/Wii line is the same basic foundation though of easy-to-play arcadey games that any casual or novice player can get into quickly. It's no coincidence either that most of the successful iPhone/Android games feature non-threatening cartoony/simple graphics (ahem right out of Nintendo's playbook), not realistic graphics of the Playstation/XBox ilk. 

The novelty of the control input is less important, what's important is the control interface is suitably user friendly and intuitive. No button multitouch fits the bill as well (maybe even better) than waving a wand around. People don't want controller novelties for novelty sake alone, otherwise Nintendo would just introduce a dozen weird controllers like maybe a game machine that's controlled by bouncing a ball (which would likely flop). Consumers aren't *that* stupid, they would eventually see that strategy for what it is -- desperation. 

I agree with him that WIi Sports and Fit cant really be replicated on phones. But here is my question do people really care about them? no not anymore not in the numbers they used to put up. It seems like you said some people have romantized those games. Fact is people will and have become tired of them. IMHO motion gaming as well.  The real question is is the audience for those games big enough anymore where a another actual Wii console (same thing as Wii but more powerful) would have been successful. I think no.


That's the thing -- you don't need to replicate yesterdays hits ... you just need to come up with tomorrow's crazes. And smartphones/tablets are quite honestly eating the lunch of not just Nintendo but Sony/MS when it comes to that in a casual-appeal categorey. 

What iOS/Android gaming does successfully ape from Nintendo's Touch Generations/Wii _____ line is the formula of easy to play games that are fun in short burts (not everyone is a core gamer that likes to play for 5 hours a day, some people just want to have a few minutes of fun), that are easy to play, and are inviting ... notice how most blockbuster game apps are colorful/simple graphics, not like Infinity Blade which tries to look like an XBox 360 game. 

And I do get why there is some denial here from some Nintendo fans on this ... in a way it isn't fair. It's not fair that Nintendo found this wonderful secret and really they only got to enjoy it for a few years. Nintendo themselves is probably in a bit of deep shock over all this too ... how could things go from so good to so bad in just a few years seemingly? I think Iwata probably has driven himself to sickness in a way because of all this. It wasn't supposed to be this way, but that is part of what makes the game industry great -- there are no short cuts or magic formulas. You gotta work for what you get every cycle. 

tomorrow's crazes is easier said than done and that is the problem.

Thats just it though it wasnt a secret. At all, people knew about it, but as Rol said pulling it off is VERY hard to do which is why most dont even attempt. Hell alot of us called it years ago. We said that it wouldnt last forever hell it didnt even last the whole gen as the last Wii years it dropped like a rock, but we were labelled as haters. It isnt fair but not for the reasons you listed. It isnt fair because Ninty is in a place IMHO where they HAVE to chase the next blue ocean craze they cannot fight MS or Sony on the red ocean front they will lose time and time again.  Nintendo as a brand, not Wii. is just not as popular as it used to be and it will never get that way again. I think thats where the true denial comes from. Wii gave some fans a false sense of security, yeah Ninty is back everyone loves them like we do. Here comes WIi U; yeah not really where right back to GC levels. Nintendo as a brand at least compared to SOny and a lesser extent MS is kinda niche. There is nothing wrong with that but the sooner fans understand that and stop the denial the happier they will be.

The other thing I think people have trouble with is that the casual market that Nintendo really tapped into with Touch Generations/Wii is a very different market from the core/hardcore/teenager typical gaming market. They behave very differently. 

I would say that market is more like the mainstream pop music industry or the fashion industry ... things are hot one moment and then they cool ... and they will cool no matter what because the whole name of the game is finding something else that's fresher/hipper/newer eventually. 

It is a trend based market. Even Angry Birds ... now is kinda passe. It's on the downcycle of its popularity, Candy Crush and Flappy Bird are the new "hot sh*t" just like once upon a time that used to be Wii Sports and Guitar Hero. Today you can't even find a store that carries Guitar Hero, unless it's at the bottom of a used discount bin, just a few years ago it was a monster franchise. 

It really is a remakarable if you think about it. Then you look at something like Grand Theft Auto ... I really thought 10 years ago that this franchise would be dead by now, but it's bigger than ever. Go figure. 

Casual blockbuster IPs age like milk. Core/hardcore IPs age like fine wine provided you don't do stupid things with the quality of the sequels.



I have only 2 words on this subject: third party



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Mr Khan said:
oniyide said:
Mr Khan said:

The key to the Wii was about thinking outside the box, and you saw that with much of the leading software which was innovative rather than iterative: Wii Sports brought the core concept to life, Wii Fit helped expand it in other directions: Wii Sports Resort brought more depth in several dimensions: more accurate control and deeper games.

Wii U attempts to be iterative, to deliver the same experience as before, over again. This is the definition of a red ocean console which doesn't break new ground. Meanwhile Wii U was too expensive, designed around what is, ultimately, a very traditional controller, and attempted to capitalize on the idea of "retrieving the lost core gamer."


So wouldnt just releasing a WIi 2 been the same damn thing? a more powerful Wii? What should they have done?

The power should have been used towards creating new experiences in the vein of new experiences the Wii brought us. "How" is difficult to say. The Vitality Sensor was one such idea, one that i still think had a quiet brilliance and why it's a shame it hasn't been realized (yet. QoL is coming, after all).

Now it would entail nintendo branching further away from gaming as we know it, but their core experience for fans like me is still profitable enough (as long as they're selling on good-selling hardware, which they need proper blue ocean values to make).

The key with the story of the Wii through the end of 2009 was that it was all about new experiences. 2010 was when Nintendo started to miss the boat and rehash. The Wii U is them running a bunch of rehashes again, with Mario Kart 8 feeling like the first game that wasn't stuck in the shadow of Wii-era software (although Pikmin 3 and Wonderful 101 certainly attempted to be pathbreaking, both are of niche appeal to begin with. Super Mario 3D World was iterative, but something that needed to happen, refining the formula from the lackluster 3D Land into something great, but still unoriginal ultimately)

and see thats my problem right there. People keep saying new expeirences, but noboday is saying how. So again i ask what they should have done? Because im sure this same conversation happened at HQ. Maybe just maybe they dont know themselves, so what were they supposed to do when they realize they got nothing? Just sit the gen out? Actually maybe that wouldnt be bad.



poklane said:
I have only 2 words on this subject: third party


At the end of the day that is basically the fundamental issue ... no single publisher (not just Nintendo, it could be anyone) can compete in this business consistently with a console that largely has games only from them versus other machines that have every major publisher in the world making games for them 24/7. 

You may be able to pull out a miracle once in a while, but generally speaking you're going to lose eventually and often. 

"Joe Public" by and large too aren't fanboys. They don't really care one way or another what name is on their console, they just want the console they gives them the widest variety of games. If it's Nintendo (NES over Sega Master System, SNES over Genesis but close) great, if that's Sony great, if that's MS they'll go that way too. There's never been a game console since the NES which was reasonably priced and had a very wide variety of third party content that was an outright failure. 



RolStoppable said:
Captain_Tom said:

My "Counter argument" is that they tried both the Blue Ocean strategy while also acting like it was for the hardcore as well.  No strategy is 100% the same.  However it is close enough that eveyone here knows what I mean when I say "Attempt another Wii generation."

Blue ocean and red ocean strategies cannot be combined. The primary goal of blue ocean strategy is higher profit margins which contradicts the nature of red ocean markets.


Exactly.  That is why the Wii U is doing so badly.  I am glad we are finally on the same page!



Soundwave said:
oniyide said:
Soundwave said:
oniyide said:
Soundwave said:
RolStoppable said:

T

The other thing I think people have trouble with is that the casual market that Nintendo really tapped into with Touch Generations/Wii is a very different market from the core/hardcore/teenager typical gaming market. They behave very differently. 

I would say that market is more like the mainstream pop music industry or the fashion industry ... things are hot one moment and then they cool ... and they will cool no matter what because the whole name of the game is finding something else that's fresher/hipper/newer eventually. 

It is a trend based market. Even Angry Birds ... now is kinda passe. It's on the downcycle of its popularity, Candy Crush and Flappy Bird are the new "hot sh*t" just like once upon a time that used to be Wii Sports and Guitar Hero. Today you can't even find a store that carries Guitar Hero, unless it's at the bottom of a used discount bin, just a few years ago it was a monster franchise. 

It really is a remakarable if you think about it. Then you look at something like Grand Theft Auto ... I really thought 10 years ago that this franchise would be dead by now, but it's bigger than ever. Go figure. 

Casual blockbuster IPs age like milk. Core/hardcore IPs age like fine wine provided you don't do stupid things with the quality of the sequels.

thats what ive been saying from day one and people are surprised when the Wii fizzled when it did. Some would still argue; it wasnt supported! Sure it was, look at the actual games, Carnival games, Deca Sports, Skylanders, what they have in common is that every iteration sold worse than the last. So even during the gen the newness was wearing off.

Grand theft auto is a perfect example. how much GTAs were released on consoles the past gen just two. thats how its supposed to be. Ironically Nintendo themselves get it, which is why you rarely 3 games in the same series on the same console. two max. which leaves people wanting more, gives the series room to breath so when it does return, HW has been learned and they can take full advantage and you have successes like GTA. Where companies mess up is gettign greedy and making yearly installments, im actually surprised COD has lasted as long as it did, but again that is difference between your core gamers and non core gamers. Non core dont really care about video games perse. 



oniyide said:
Mr Khan said:

The power should have been used towards creating new experiences in the vein of new experiences the Wii brought us. "How" is difficult to say. The Vitality Sensor was one such idea, one that i still think had a quiet brilliance and why it's a shame it hasn't been realized (yet. QoL is coming, after all).

Now it would entail nintendo branching further away from gaming as we know it, but their core experience for fans like me is still profitable enough (as long as they're selling on good-selling hardware, which they need proper blue ocean values to make).

The key with the story of the Wii through the end of 2009 was that it was all about new experiences. 2010 was when Nintendo started to miss the boat and rehash. The Wii U is them running a bunch of rehashes again, with Mario Kart 8 feeling like the first game that wasn't stuck in the shadow of Wii-era software (although Pikmin 3 and Wonderful 101 certainly attempted to be pathbreaking, both are of niche appeal to begin with. Super Mario 3D World was iterative, but something that needed to happen, refining the formula from the lackluster 3D Land into something great, but still unoriginal ultimately)

and see thats my problem right there. People keep saying new expeirences, but noboday is saying how. So again i ask what they should have done? Because im sure this same conversation happened at HQ. Maybe just maybe they dont know themselves, so what were they supposed to do when they realize they got nothing? Just sit the gen out? Actually maybe that wouldnt be bad.

The problem is that Nintendo is overflowing with new ideas. You don't need one singular new idea to dominate a console, you can build your console to accept multiple new ideas: that was the genius of the Wiimote, not that it was just a waggle wand, but could be used as a lightgun pointer, tilted on its side to run like an NES controller or a cheap substitute for a steering wheel, while still getting closer to the real deal than anything aside from those expensive actual wheel controllers you can buy (with force feedback and all), or modulated with a nunchuk to function much like a "traditional" controller. Nintendo then made a bunch of different new games to flow in with these new ideas. Some were good, some... less so (say what you will about Other M, but it was certainly a "new" take on Metroid). The Zelda games for DS are often poorly regarded, but they were certainly "new", and very distinct from any Zeldas that came before. A lot of times Nintendo's new ideas don't stick, but a lot of the crazier games they make show that they certainly aren't without them.

The console doesn't need to be as bold as the Wii to do "new" things, however. It just needs to be flexible.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.