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Forums - Movies & TV - Hey Pork eating infidels, Should Ms Marvel (the Pakistani one) be in the Avengers? or the old blonde one?

PullusPardus on 11 May 2014
binary solo said:
Augen said:
The biggest issue I have is when they "reboot" established characters in efforts to shoe horn in more diversity. Now, if this was the Green Lantern concept where the object is passed anyone can be it so that is cool, but when they killed Peter Parker and had some afro-Caribbean kid replace him as Spider-Man? Not a fan of replacing Spider-Man at all, and it felt like a marketing effort.

I am perfectly fine with having muslim or what ever heroes, let them stand on their own as opposed to "It's the muslim version of Iron Man or Superman or what have you."

Admittedly I have not kept up with comics for past few years so not sure what has happened (especially since DC completely rebooted their universe).


But why does Spiderman have to be a white person? If Peter Parker is killed off and they chose to 're-create Spiderman then why does the new Spiderman have to be a white dude? What exactly is wrong with introducing racial diversity in that way? The way that is contrived and awkward is if Robert Downey stops playing Tony Stark and they replace him with Denzel Washington as Tony Stark. But if Tony Stark either quits or dies then Don Cheadle taking over as Iron man is all good, nes pa?

And of course the other point is we should not be confined by the casual racism of the first 3/4s of the 20th century where almost every Superhero was a white dude, and occasionally a white chick. The fact that our default expectation of a Superhero is they are white means there's still an underlying racial bias.


the thing is Spiderman is one of those characters that should always be a college/highschool kid and poor struggling american, otherwise it just doesn't feel like "Spidey" 

its the same as if having captain america be chinese or something



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d21lewis on 11 May 2014
Augen said:
burning_phoneix said:

Captain Marvel died I think so Carol Danvers took his place as "Captain". Therefore, the title of Ms.Marvel was vacant.

So, essentially this is like Dick Grayson becoming Batman when Bruce Wayne died and Damian Wayne being the new Robin?

I guess, though might be nice to give her own identity and groom her a while then be Ms. Marvel.  

Comics have used that story so often, it's embarrassing.  Everybody gets replaced by a controversial character for a while.  Green Lantern, Hulk, Superman, Captain America, Iron Man (who somehow got replaced by his younger self!!) Batman (Azrael Batman), Wonder Woman, Spider-Man (who got replaced by his own clone, a black/Hispanic kid/and his own worst enemy)--pretty much everybody dies, gets replaced, or both.

 

Anyway, I considere myself a comics fan and I've only read a few with blonde Ms. Marvel in it.  The last one being Abengers vs. X-Men.  To me, she's just not iconic enough for the main roster.



adriane23 on 11 May 2014

I'd prefer if she was her own super-hero. It's like Marvel tries to promote diversity in the most racist way possible.



I am the Playstation Avenger.

   

Augen on 12 May 2014
binary solo said:


But why does Spiderman have to be a white person? If Peter Parker is killed off and they chose to 're-create Spiderman then why does the new Spiderman have to be a white dude? What exactly is wrong with introducing racial diversity in that way? The way that is contrived and awkward is if Robert Downey stops playing Tony Stark and they replace him with Denzel Washington as Tony Stark. But if Tony Stark either quits or dies then Don Cheadle taking over as Iron man is all good, nes pa?

And of course the other point is we should not be confined by the casual racism of the first 3/4s of the 20th century where almost every Superhero was a white dude, and occasionally a white chick. The fact that our default expectation of a Superhero is they are white means there's still an underlying racial bias.

Spider-Man is Peter Parker, who happens to be white, happens to be American, an American and starts out a nerdy teenager.  He is not Ben Reilly or Otto Octavius (who both are also white) so it is more with the lack of respect to a character or a mythos than being against diveristy. Given the way he acquired his powers (by an accident) the only successor I could see is an offspring.

Make a new hero, make him or her what ever you want, and let them stand on their own. Cyborg is black and has managed to move up the ranks in DC from the TItans to the Justice League. It feel authentic over decades to see a character grow and develop and come into their role.

On Iron Man, Rhodes, who is War Machine, did take on role of Iron Man for a bit.  The question to me is why can't War Machine be his own hero, get his own stories and not always feel like a level below Iron Man.  Make a War Machine movie with Cheadle and I'd be fine with that.

I agree with this last point that white should not be a the deafult. We should introduce characters that show the diversity of humanity in super hero stories to get unique and interesting stories.  However, we shouldn't do it by just killing off and replacing all the old characters for the sake of it.



Augen on 12 May 2014
d21lewis said:

Comics have used that story so often, it's embarrassing.  Everybody gets replaced by a controversial character for a while.  Green Lantern, Hulk, Superman, Captain America, Iron Man (who somehow got replaced by his younger self!!) Batman (Azrael Batman), Wonder Woman, Spider-Man (who got replaced by his own clone, a black/Hispanic kid/and his own worst enemy)--pretty much everybody dies, gets replaced, or both.

 

Anyway, I considere myself a comics fan and I've only read a few with blonde Ms. Marvel in it.  The last one being Abengers vs. X-Men.  To me, she's just not iconic enough for the main roster.

Agreed. My biggest issue with comics and why I fell out with them was the nonsense of "they're dead!" followed by "Gasp! They're back!" to artificially boost sales.  If a character died let them stay dead and enter a new age of heroes.  It would be interesting to me to see actually progression of time (and not in some parallel universe like Kingdom Come) and the old guard fade out and see what modern heroes would be like.

You could still do mini series and stories about the classic heroes.



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PullusPardus on 12 May 2014
Augen said:
d21lewis said:

Comics have used that story so often, it's embarrassing.  Everybody gets replaced by a controversial character for a while.  Green Lantern, Hulk, Superman, Captain America, Iron Man (who somehow got replaced by his younger self!!) Batman (Azrael Batman), Wonder Woman, Spider-Man (who got replaced by his own clone, a black/Hispanic kid/and his own worst enemy)--pretty much everybody dies, gets replaced, or both.

 

Anyway, I considere myself a comics fan and I've only read a few with blonde Ms. Marvel in it.  The last one being Abengers vs. X-Men.  To me, she's just not iconic enough for the main roster.

Agreed. My biggest issue with comics and why I fell out with them was the nonsense of "they're dead!" followed by "Gasp! They're back!" to artificially boost sales.  If a character died let them stay dead and enter a new age of heroes.  It would be interesting to me to see actually progression of time (and not in some parallel universe like Kingdom Come) and the old guard fade out and see what modern heroes would be like.

You could still do mini series and stories about the classic heroes.

you can blame both comic fans and superman for this.

the first time they did it it boosted the sales dramatically, new people got into comics and all that, now every time it gets stale they do it again like a vital injection needle (ironically)  and comic fans buy into it sadly.



Kasz216 on 12 May 2014
Augen said:
PullusPardus said:
Augen said:
PullusPardus said:

the original ms marvel turned into Captain Marvel awhile ago, she's the girl with her hands crossed in the panels I've shown, the new ms marvel sees her as a role model and she wants to "Be like her" so she shape shifted to her literally, in the second issue she goes into "not pretend you are someone else is better than trying to be someone you're not" kind of thing, so she learns how to control it.


By "turned into" you mean she took up the mantle or that she physically transubstantiated into a new form?

If it is the former I really don't get the idea that Captain Marvel outranked Ms. Marvel as always thought she was more popular.  Was it an emotional rationale that she is doing it to honor his death?

As for the new character, maybe she will evolve into something distinct and finds her own identity as never been a fan of the "Superman/Supergirl/Superboy" type concept of spin off characters.

I think you're confusing the DC character captain marvel who is called shazam, other than that I don't really know I'm not a big super hero comic fan I like the shorter story arcs. And non super hero comics

This guy, but he never really was a major character, more like third tier hero.  Why I mean Ms. Marvel was a bigger character. It would be like when Jason Todd died Batman became Robin. She moved down into the role of a lesser character...but it's better because..."Captain" is better than "Ms."?

 

I mean... true.  But there was a Captain Marvel who was more popular then both of them... (argueably combined).

 

Though they shuffled another name on to her.

 

White Female Captain Marvel is best known as "That girl who gave rogue her superman powers".

 

This Captain Marvel led the Avengers for a while.

(There is also Gensis-Vell Captain Marvel, and one or two others i want to say)

 

She definitly wins the "Most successful Captain Marvel" trophy.

 

Well ok, OG Mar-vell technically saved the universe, but not really.   

He beat thanos, but only because thanos subconsiously lost because he felt he didn't deserve to win.   Squirrel Girl could of did it.



noname2200 on 12 May 2014

This thread keeps confusing me. The only Captain Marvel I know is (ironically) the DC Comics one...



Kasz216 on 12 May 2014
noname2200 said:
This thread keeps confusing me. The only Captain Marvel I know is (ironically) the DC Comics one...


Full picture list of Marvel Captain Marvels... ( I think).    (Well... 616 Captain Marvels.)

 

           

 

 

   



Kasz216 on 12 May 2014
Augen said:
burning_phoneix said:

Captain Marvel died I think so Carol Danvers took his place as "Captain". Therefore, the title of Ms.Marvel was vacant.

So, essentially this is like Dick Grayson becoming Batman when Bruce Wayne died and Damian Wayne being the new Robin?

I guess, though might be nice to give her own identity and groom her a while then be Ms. Marvel.  


Nah, Captain Marvel died a looooong time ago.   Then he was replaced by a black woman because the media gave her that name.   Then SHE was replaced by Captain Marvel (OG's son) who went crazy became a near ultra powerful god and maybe killed himself?   And was replaced by his sister,   Who then gave up the name of replacing her dad to replace Quasar, an even less well known character who can basically be summed up as "Marvel Green Lantern".

Then Captain Marvel came back to life after, probably at least 2 decades of real life time dead, only he turned out to be a skrull.  THAN he was replaced by another Kree who's connection i honestly can't remember, other then being a Kree, to be evil Dark Avenger Marvel....  he's still alive.   Then Carol Danvers took over.

 

I THINK because they want the NEW Ms Marvel to essentially be her Robin/Wonder Girl,  Ms is already about as low as you can go in the surname game.  So Carol Danvers got promoted to Captain Marvel... likely because she wasn't married and therefore couldn't be Mrs. Marvel.

 

 

Of course, maybe the real Captain Marvel did come back to life at some point too... I'm not so sure.  Either way, there have been a TON of captain marvels at this point, who have held the mantle for a fairly long period of time apiece.