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Forums - Gaming - Why is it hard to believe that third parties are biased against Nintendo?

dharh said:
Zero999 said:

how does the bolded relate to wii u? nintendo isn't lowering the standard and the console isn't radically different, or much different, or even moderately different. it's different simply because  consoles are different.


I entirely disagree. I think Nintendo's software this gen, so far, has been lackluster. This console is yet another radical change from the previous iteration, primarily the controller.

Nintendo went from traditional ergonomic controller in the Gamecube, to a one hand motion control remote in the Wii, now to a two hand motion control tablet. Even if you consider using the Wii Mote on the Wii U, that is _2_ different controllers for one console.

It's different. Compare that to basically the same controller with minor changes for 3+ generations on the PlayStation and XBOX. I am still holding my controller the same way I did over a decade ago. I can't say the same on the Wii U.

I can't believe someone still says that. the gamepad is a regular controller with a screen, deal with it.

I'm still waiting for you to say what's radically different on game development.



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impertinence said:

So, to recap. Bias exsists, it effects all business decissions but to a degree that is insignificant to the rationality of the outcome.

In other words, you are contradicting yourself. What you are trying to assert here is that the market consists of rational agents as their bias has no significance on the decissions they make.

This is your assumption. If you actually paid attention you would realize I am not asserting anything. I have defined signifcance in the context of how it used in my argument of what an objective analysis is -> overwriting the rationality of a decision. If it fufills qualification, it is significant. Else, its is not.

This is the classical view of economics like I've said before, and it's also pretty much universally rejected by now. If you want to keep arguing this point, there's lot's of material to draw from, but be warned that there is not much there to help validate your point.

Clearly, the fact that you keep trying to link my concession to classical economics is indicative of the fact that you have not yet grasped it. 

Again, this boils down to a disagreement over behavioral economics vs, classic economics

It does not.

and the proof you are looking for is well established if you bother to look for it. Yes, proven using the scientific method that you randomly thought had any relevance to what you were saying earlier.

Your other attempts to try to frame the debate into your weird obsession with logical proof is also absurd as it relies on measurring the rational sense a decission makes.

Weird to you perhaps but not to anyone who is actually trying to prove something to an impartial judge. I will admit that this line of questioning is a bit extreme since it is an internet discussion, but you are the one who is flat out refusing to accept that the topic can be approached with any sort of objectivism

The whole point is that measurring rationality of a decission is extremely difficult,

Never said that, I told you how to measure the rationality of the decision. I said measuring bias is difficult without favorable conditions. Determing rationale as an outside observer is basically impossible to do objectively.

and the more complex the system is the more difficult to impossible it becomes. If there was such a thing as your hypotetical objective 'it makes rational sense' measurments, then people would not make incorrect decissons. Ever. The problem is that the measuring stick doesn't exsist. What appears to make 'rational sense' is ALWAYS colored by bias.

See this is how I know you don't understand/read my posts. I said in the event that a company has made the wrong decision, then biases are observable. My experiment is only impossible if companies are infalliable.

So, again, if you put away your bias that third parties always act rationally when dealing with the Wii U

i have never said this

and think about all the things you know about video games, publishers and developers you will be able to find instances of anti Nintendo bias. Here's a hint: you have parroted one of the common anti Nintendo biases earlier in this thread, just a few posts ago. If you can find it, good for you. If you can't, perhaps you are under a little bit of bias blindness.

 

 

evidence is missing, you claim it exists but you want me to find it -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof

Another point that might have escaped you: When you have to resort to contradictions, search for the 'hidden' meanings in things and move the goal posts all over the place it might be a sign that you are trying to hard to make an argument fit with your own bias.

 

If only, it was that easy. Instead, I constantly have to repeat myself:



Dr.Henry_Killinger said:
impertinence said:

Sigh. Are you trying to imply that making Playstation 4 and Xbox One games are like making desks and making WiiU games is like making cars? I am going by the assumption here that professional game developers have the skills and the know how to be able to make games on the Wii U as well as the Playstation 4 and the Xbox One.

Your counter example is obviously completely meaningless. Unless of course you hold on to a bias that developing games for the Wii U is so extremly easy compared to other platforms that it is akin to the difference between making a desk and a car? To answer your question, your useless interpretation of what I said is pretty close to as unreasonable as anything can get.

Finally, your last point about who is responsible for what is another statement right from the echo chamber. Also, it is completely irrelevant to the discussion just like your first example. First of all, who is blaming anyone for anything? Third parties (and Niontendo, and Sony, and Microsoft, and you and I) all operate based on bias to some extent or another. That doesn't mean I am blaming third parties for anything. They make their decission (irrational as they are) that effects their business and their money, reputation, feeling of self and whatever else motivations they have. Good for them. I am simply pointing out that these decissions are not driven solely by clear analytical thought, and that the underlyig bias is very easy to see. And yeah, one of the strong biases in the videogame industry right now is that Nintendo is out of touch, the hardware too weak, can only sell to casuals etc etc. I am sure you can add to the list.

You're refusal to openly consider opposing arguments, makes discussion with you purely just banter. You came into this thread already locked in your own opinion. I will agree that since the Wii U and HD twins are essentially the same hardware, a more accurate example would be the HD Twins as Diesel cars, and the Wii U being electric. 

Bias is inherent to human nature. But your bias is, ironically, clouding your judgement.

Company's are a lot more rational then humans, because they have to be to survive, and they are the conglomeration of all the biases of the people working in the company. Even if the CEO's mother died playing the Wii, EA would still make games for it because the profit overwrites any bias against Nintendo.

Unless you can prove undoubtedly that 3rd parties not developing for the Wii U is detrimental to themselves, then it is pointless to try to analyze any possible bias.

So many goalpost have been moved:



In this day and age, with the Internet, ignorance is a choice! And they're still choosing Ignorance! - Dr. Filthy Frank

Dr.Henry_Killinger said:

impertinence said:

So, again, if you put away your bias that third parties always act rationally when dealing with the Wii U

i have never said this

I am glad we could come to an agreement.

Thirdparties sometimes act irrationally when dealing with the Wii U. According to your formula that proves that there are third parties with a Nintendo bias. Not sure why we  had to argue for a whole two pages when I was right all along?



In all this lengthy debate trying to prove bias is hilarious. As people are acting like companies having a bias is morally wrong, and, or a sin. When in fact companies are mostly autonomous entities that can invest their money where they see fit. Acting like the world owes Nintendo anything is almost like following Nintendo as as being a religious dogma that must be followed. Absolute

What a joke!




impertinence said:

I am glad we could come to an agreement.

Thirdparties sometimes act irrationally when dealing with the Wii U. According to your formula that proves that there are third parties with a Nintendo bias. Not sure why we  had to argue for a whole two pages when I was right all along?

That's because we are arguing about two related but distinct things.

You are concerned with the existence of bias.

I'm concerned with the objectively proving the scale of the bias, which already assumes that it exists.

Furthermore, it has occured to me after some thought that my method is flawed because while I have defined what significant is in terms of the discussion, I havent defined at what marketshare the determination is based on. Which means its up for interpretation or subjective, which means that the entire method cannot be objective.

Ultimately, subjectivity is the main issue when talking about human nature.

Most of the reasoning I see in this forum is not rigorous enough.



In this day and age, with the Internet, ignorance is a choice! And they're still choosing Ignorance! - Dr. Filthy Frank

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Dr.Henry_Killinger said:
mysteryman said:
Dr.Henry_Killinger said:

I have never said Companies have no bias, nor have I said that bias has no effect in a companies decision making process. However, with regard to the topic title. I have repeatidely stated that any specifically anti-nintendo bias cannot be observed unless the system in question is succesful enough that bias is the only thing preventing ports. The bias is not significant enough to overwrite and rational force that exists as well. We are biased actors trying to analyze the biases of a conglomeration of people who form a buisness which must make good decisions in order to survive. You cannot just claim that because biases exist and because 3rd parties didn't support the Wii U, that 3rd parties are biased against the Wii U, especially when it makes rational sense. 

Consider a company run by computers without any biases whatsoever. If they acted exactly like these human companies, how would you know whether or not bias had a significant effect on the human company. See the problem? You know the biases exist but you can't understand them if it is not obvious.

1.@Bolded

Dr.Henry_Killinger said:

Everyone has Biases, but when your a AAA publisher, those biases are practically irrelevant.

You are saying that bias has no effect for AAA publishers right here. Though I wasn't referring to you directly, but instead to others in the thread who have stated it impossible for large companies to be biased.

practically irrelevant =/= no effect

practically irrelevant == not significant

 (not significant) in a companies decision making process  <- unfortunately this is a subjective claim as it depends on what I have defined significance to be luckily:

I've already defined significance as overwriting the rationality of a decision.

If a port to System A makes rational sense, then if its on system A then clearly any System A bias cannot be determined, even if the decision was made out of 100% bias. If the port does not make rational sense and its on System A, then we can say without a doubt that their is bias for System A. Conversely, the opposite scenario holds true. If a port makes rational sense on System A, and its not their. Then bias have overwritten rationality against System A. It holds true in every scenario regardless of whoever is observing or who it concerns. The fact that we are talking about Nintendo, 3rd parties, or even the gaming industry is irrelevant. If you can't apply the same method of thinking to any other company then clearly the method is relative and untrustworthy.

2. You assume that bias itself must be either extreme or have extreme consequences. Port prevention is not the only outcome of bias towards Nintendo and there are many forms of bias, which can affect decision making at many levels:

where?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

3. You assume these businesses always, and only, make good decisions, which is clearly not true. I provided a quote showing just that:

"Our candid conversations with senior executives behind closed doors reveal a similar unease with the quality of decision making and confirm the significant body of research indicating that cognitive biases affect the most important strategic decisions made by the smartest managers in the best companies"

Are you generalizing the quote to apply to every company, or at the very least all multiplat publishers? Where did I make the assumption that you claim I did in number 3? Wouldn't my whole argument necessitate that wrong decisions are made some times?

4. @Italicised. I never made this claim. Though is it not plausible that confirmation bias has played a role?

This is a generalized claim, it is not directed at you specifically. It is an assertion that attempting to describe bias on the grounds that it exists is not sufficient. 

5. I do agree that it is difficult to prove, completely and utterly, without any insider knowledge, but that does not mean it has been disproved. You admit that it's difficult to discern bias, but you are sure that it's not there.

Evidence of absence is not absence of evidence. My entire argument is that without the right conditions one cannot observe the biases even though they exist.

6. Finally, back to my question which has been glossed over. What is a reasonable explanation (purely to maximise profits, and completely free from bias) for omitting any mention of a Wii U version alongside all of the others, for multiplat games in advertising?

How should I know. I never addressed that question in the first place. My concern is solely in the method of examing biases in decision to port to the Wii U.



1. Significant for you, is totally overwriting the rationality of a decision, and you say this is not seen, therefore you say that there is no significant effect. Semantics, but in essence you are saying there is no effect (because it's never significant). This is warped by your subjective definition of 'significant'.

2. You say the bias must be easily discernable to be significant.

I am saying here that the effect can be significant, even if not going to the extreme case of totally overwriting the rationality of a decision in a complately obvious manner. Also, the consequences of bias do not need to end in a poor decision, though one does need to be aware that this could also be confirmation bias in play, which will make poorer decisions better in hindsight due to a self-fulfilling prophecy.

3. The quote is general, showing a trend amongst higher-ups in large businesses in general, that bias is affecting large companies.

You say "buisness which must make good decisions in order to survive", implying that if the businesses are still here, they've made good decisions (and good decisions must have been free of bias).

4. I agree that this doesn't prove, on it's own, a certain causation. But correlation should at least show a plausibility to investigate further, but many shut down even the plausibilty or possibility (an effect of bias in its own right?).

5. You feel you have disproved it, but your criteria are flawed. But assuming they arent, you are agreeing here that bias could be playing a role, you just aren't able to discern it with 100% accuracy.

6. This was an example of potential bias. It hasn't had the effect of stopping a port to the Wii U (as i said before, that wasn't the only possible outcome of bias) but is a decision that makes no sense and only serves to reduce Wii U version sales of a multiplat title and hence reduce profit. I would even say it's more detrimental to the Wii U version than no advertising at all, as it gives the impression that the Wii U version doesn't exist.

Another potential example, though debatable, was the decision to delay the Wii U version of Rayman Legends. We can only speculate on the difference in sales if it had remained exclusive and released on time, and confirmation bias could be at play, justifying the less-than-stellar performance of the game as reasoning for the delay.

7. Just a thought; how could you determine bias using your criteria, if a biased group or individual was intentionally maintaining an air of plausible deniability?



chocoloco said:
In all this lengthy debate trying to prove bias is hilarious. As people are acting like companies having a bias is morally wrong, and, or a sin. When in fact companies are mostly autonomous entities that can invest their money where they see fit. Acting like the world owes Nintendo anything is almost like following Nintendo as as being a religious dogma that must be followed. Absolute

What a joke!


This is a pretty lofty jump to conclusions. I think you are a victim of bias here, assuming that bias when proven is morally wrong. I can'tremember anyone implying tat, seems like that one is on you.



mysteryman said:

 


See the post preceeding yours.



In this day and age, with the Internet, ignorance is a choice! And they're still choosing Ignorance! - Dr. Filthy Frank

I'm not really up to wading through this thread and all the semantics I've already seen through simple skimming, I am just wondering to what degree some of you believe bias plays for certain third parties in their relationship with nintendo? I could see it being something of a contributing factor as bias is to a degree in all human in all human interaction, or do you believe it to be an overriding or even deciding factor in some of their decisions?



cheshirescat said:
I'm not really up to wading through this thread and all the semantics I've already seen through simple skimming, I am just wondering to what degree some of you believe bias plays for certain third parties in their relationship with nintendo? I could see it being something of a contributing factor as bias is to a degree in all human in all human interaction, or do you believe it to be an overriding or even deciding factor in some of their decisions?



In this day and age, with the Internet, ignorance is a choice! And they're still choosing Ignorance! - Dr. Filthy Frank