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Forums - Nintendo - The truth about Nintendo

 

What do you think about Nintendo's attitude?

Awful, they should fail i... 189 14.04%
 
Pretty Bad, they should l... 385 28.60%
 
Not bad, they're just as anybody else 188 13.97%
 
Good, we need more like them 389 28.90%
 
Excellent, they don't need to change one bit 173 12.85%
 
Total:1,324
Michael-5 said:

He's still much better then the guys at GamrReview. He at least proof reads for typos and errors, and makes an arguement with research.

As for research, well Nintendo is still looking for easy answers. To be fair Super Mario 3D World plays in 60FPS 1080p, and it looks great because of that. However as technology improves, people are going to expect pixar levels of graphics. Everyone else took that big investment and learnt how to make HD games, but I think one reason why WiiU is struggling is because Nintendo doesn't have the capacity to make that many HD games. Pikmin 3 as an example was suppose to be a 2011 Wii game (one reason why I got the Wii), then it got delayed twice and moved to the WiiU only to be delayed again. Had they had the resources, this could have been a launch title, and maybe even helped out with sales.

Nintendo did not cater the WiiU very much to 3rd party's. Bethesda said that by the time they were informed about the WiiU, it was already having it's final stages of production done. I think all Bethesda wanted was a more powerful rig so they can more easily downgrade PS4/XB1 titles, but the WiiU is too much like current gen machines.

 

@Bold:  I personally feel I could do much better of a job.  While his spelling isn't bad, it isn't really indicative of anything.  I rarely make spelling errors on here, and when I do I fix them shortly afterwards.  His sources are also not very good.  There are quite a few things he misinterpreted about the data he's looking at as well, and many times where he jumps to a conclusion simply because of a correlation (which shows he isn't a good researcher).

@Second paragraph:  I don't think it was as much about the resources as it was about Nintendo being anal about polishing a game to a certain level.  I recall reading that Nintendo didn't put the game on the Wii because it didn't fit with what they wanted out of the game (hardware wasn't strong enough).  In the end, Nintendo has definitely been late to the HD party and is paying the price for it.  This, however, means very little in terms of the argument OP makes.

@Third paragraph:  I definitely am aware that Nintendo didn't do very much to cater the Wii U to 3rd parties, but they were definitely thinking about it with the Wii U.  They just made the balance for what they wanted/needed and what they thought third parties wanted/needed really bad, which translated to a system that doesn't cater very well to the majority of gamers.  The games are quite possibly the only thing that can save the system, and since the system has little support it is doomed to a relatively low lifetime sales number.

Anyway, I personally feel like the OP has something personal against Nintendo because the rhetoric is clearly antagonistic.  



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MDMAlliance said:
Michael-5 said:

He's still much better then the guys at GamrReview. He at least proof reads for typos and errors, and makes an arguement with research.

As for research, well Nintendo is still looking for easy answers. To be fair Super Mario 3D World plays in 60FPS 1080p, and it looks great because of that. However as technology improves, people are going to expect pixar levels of graphics. Everyone else took that big investment and learnt how to make HD games, but I think one reason why WiiU is struggling is because Nintendo doesn't have the capacity to make that many HD games. Pikmin 3 as an example was suppose to be a 2011 Wii game (one reason why I got the Wii), then it got delayed twice and moved to the WiiU only to be delayed again. Had they had the resources, this could have been a launch title, and maybe even helped out with sales.

Nintendo did not cater the WiiU very much to 3rd party's. Bethesda said that by the time they were informed about the WiiU, it was already having it's final stages of production done. I think all Bethesda wanted was a more powerful rig so they can more easily downgrade PS4/XB1 titles, but the WiiU is too much like current gen machines.

 

@Bold:  I personally feel I could do much better of a job.  While his spelling isn't bad, it isn't really indicative of anything.  I rarely make spelling errors on here, and when I do I fix them shortly afterwards.  His sources are also not very good.  There are quite a few things he misinterpreted about the data he's looking at as well, and many times where he jumps to a conclusion simply because of a correlation (which shows he isn't a good researcher).

@Second paragraph:  I don't think it was as much about the resources as it was about Nintendo being anal about polishing a game to a certain level.  I recall reading that Nintendo didn't put the game on the Wii because it didn't fit with what they wanted out of the game (hardware wasn't strong enough).  In the end, Nintendo has definitely been late to the HD party and is paying the price for it.  This, however, means very little in terms of the argument OP makes.

@Third paragraph:  I definitely am aware that Nintendo didn't do very much to cater the Wii U to 3rd parties, but they were definitely thinking about it with the Wii U.  They just made the balance for what they wanted/needed and what they thought third parties wanted/needed really bad, which translated to a system that doesn't cater very well to the majority of gamers.  The games are quite possibly the only thing that can save the system, and since the system has little support it is doomed to a relatively low lifetime sales number.

Anyway, I personally feel like the OP has something personal against Nintendo because the rhetoric is clearly antagonistic.  

Well if you won't agree that the OP wrote a good article, will you at least agree that journalism in gaming is a complete joke? OP does have a bias towards Nintendo (e.g. the royalties during the NES era did partly save the game industry by cleaning out a lot of crap).

Pikmin 3 was 85% done before it got switched to the WiiU. Maybe they are anal, but if they had a grand scheme of the game, they should have switched it to the WiiU earlier. This is just poor management on their part. A better example would be Kid Icarus, it was designed from the start to be an early 3DS title, and it was great.

LOL Nintendo had 3rd parties in mind, okay. They've gone from completely ignoring them with the N64, to keeping 3rd parties in mind. This is still far behind Sony who designs their systems after talking to 3rd party studios. This is why now most PC games are limited by PS4/XB1 specs, Sony and MS listened, and now 3rd party studios want to put their games on those respective systems.

Personally I feel Nintendo fell because of Hiroshi Yamauchi's retirement. He designed the ultra successful DS, and play a role in Wii's design. Iwata said he would resign if WiiU sales didn't break 5 million for the 1st fiscal year, which they didn't. He's just not talented enough to run the company, and I feel WiiU was his attempt at replicating DS's design and sales. Everyone makes mistakes though (Gunpei Yokoi - creator of Metroid, retired after making the failure that is Virtual Boy). Hopefully Iwata will make the next Nintendo a proper console. If not, I fear for the company.



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Michael-5 said:

Well if you won't agree that the OP wrote a good article, will you at least agree that journalism in gaming is a complete joke? OP does have a bias towards Nintendo (e.g. the royalties during the NES era did partly save the game industry by cleaning out a lot of crap).

Personally I feel Nintendo fell because of Hiroshi Yamauchi's retirement. He designed the ultra successful DS, and play a role in Wii's design. Iwata said he would resign if WiiU sales didn't break 5 million for the 1st fiscal year, which they didn't. He's just not talented enough to run the company, and I feel WiiU was his attempt at replicating DS's design and sales. Everyone makes mistakes though (Gunpei Yokoi - creator of Metroid, retired after making the failure that is Virtual Boy). Hopefully Iwata will make the next Nintendo a proper console. If not, I fear for the company.


@Bold: I suppose.  I haven't read too many gaming journalists' articles, but I do know they aren't the best (sort of mediocre).

@Italics:  I'm not entirely sure about this whole process, and I would probably need to research it more but I personally didn't feel like the Wii U was replicating the DS's design, and I read that the Wii U was never meant to do Wii levels of sales (much less DS levels).  I think the Wii U was much more done because of the Tablet trend going on.  I personally like the gamepad, but it's probably due to my heavy preference for being unrestricted with my gaming locations (AKA why I really like handhelds).



You may disagree, but it's at least well written and argued and there are a few good points.

Things like not refunding faulty machines, limiting the number of games by 3rd parties, the YouTube scandal, strictness with region-locking and odd formats to avoid piracy, high royalties, etc do show that Nintendo has been a bit stingy and tried to abuse the market to their advantage whenever they could.

It doesn't mean Nintendo are evil, and despite their low-investment, high profit margin approach, they make great games. But if they want to compete in this market they need to change and I think they have changed to some degree, if only because they were forced by market changes.



No troll is too much for me to handle. I rehabilitate trolls, I train people. I am the Troll Whisperer.

Zod95 said:
Mnementh said:

You said PS2 was the most powerful console when it launched. It barely have beaten the Dreamcast, but that aside - you're right. But also right is, that the WiiU was the most powerful console when it launched. So you might define 'cutting edge' differently, but if you do it as you do for PS2, the same can be applied to WiiU.

This is obvious for what you do - you apply different measurements for different companies/consoles. Same about the money. Nintendo made long time profit, and you concluded the gamer get more investments for his dollar with Sony or MS. Now Sony makes profit on PS4 and Nintendo loses on WiiU, but you will not accept your own line of argument for current facts.

I dare you to prove that WiiU is more powerful than PS3.

But even assuming the WiiU is more powerful (which is not), what is your point? You want to convince me that WiiU is cutting-edge when it's 1 entire generation behind consoles that were launched only 1 year later?

Regarding the profits, I think I've already told you why it's not wise to consider what happens in some months or years to take conclusions about a company's attitude. Sony had to sell their entire headquarters in the USA. They will need so many little profits like the ones they had last quarter that if things continue on this pace they should be having their buildings back by 2050. If such thing happens (which would be not bad at all for Sony regarding what happened to them in the recent years), will you say they're greedy just by recovering their assets?

LOL, you really believe that stuff about WiiU is weaker than PS3? Oh god. First rule of propaganda: don't believe your own lies. You should be provng me, that PS3 is more powerful than WiiU, but I will help you a bit: look at games like X, and say they are possible on PS3?

And you spin your argument around - your argument was, that PS2 was most powerful as it was released, hence it was cutting edge. If we want to use logic and apply the same argument to WiiU, you say no, it doesn't apply here, because ... it is Nintendo. Well, that's logic! You're my hero.

But that's a general pattern, that you ignore all logic. Your profit-argument ids only true  for MS and Sony, not for Nintendo. That's incredible. I don't even want to talk about the fact, that losses resulting from a loss-leading strategy are invested into marketshare, not games. I don't want to talk about the fact, that companies usually invest on profits, not losses. What Nintendo did, they created a lot more gaming-IPs over the years, than Sony and MS together. That is investment in gaming. But you aren't even willing to use your own argument in it's consequence. In your initial post you even said that Sony made initial profit (and therefore ripped customers off), but SHOULD now have balanced out. You don't deliver facts. So, a shorter time of losses for Sony is good for gamers, but a shorter time of losses from Nintendo isn't. Again, no logic at all.



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There were always tons of shovelware/terrible games on the NES ... like those Friday the 13th games (lol). There were plenty of times where I game I rented wasn't even worth the rental fee on the NES, lol. I actually grew up with an NES so I remember. There were great games of course but there were plenty of terrible ones too. 

The thing was it was still a far better system than the Sega Master System because even though the Sega had some pretty cool 1st party games, it had virtually nothing else. Nintendo was the system to play if you wanted the most games in every genre, not just Mario.

Somewhere between there and now, Nintendo somehow turned their console model into the Sega Master System model, while handing away the "NES role" to Sony/MS.

The Wii/DS formula works great, when there is no Apple/Google to disrupt it and you can come reliably come up with an exciting new gimmick every couple of years. Unfortunately that is not so easy to pull off and competing against Apple/Google and the smartphone is honestly harder than competing against Sony/MS directly. People are not willing to give up their smartphone for anything, it's their *life* and kids gravitate to tablets like a fly drawn to a light. 



PenguinZ said:
Zod95 said:
PenguinZ said:

Yes, Sony and Microsoft, unlike Nintendo, develop top-notch game engines.

Can you list  some examples, and what distinctions you made to determine why those are top-notch engines. Are you implying that Nintendo's in house game engines do not meet that criteria? What can NIntendo do to make their game engines top-notch?

Some examples:

PhyreEngine

MotorStorm Engine

Killzone Engine

Halo Engine

God of War Engine

Project Gotham Engine

Insomniac Engine 3.0

Modified MAG Engine

 

I would determine based on the following criteria: current gen ; above the average (disregarding shovelware).

Yes, Nintendo's game engines do not match this criteria.

They could create game engines on a platform holding current gen tech.


Last time I checked the whole purpose of a game engine is to give the tools to develop a game. I give you credit for the engines you've listed, but again.. What's the criteria for current gen, or what's above average? Please think about and elaborate on this point if you wish. Nintendo's game engines match the criteria that they need to make the games they want to make, so what's the issue?

Yes, a game engine is to give tools to develop a game and, yes, Nintendo's game engines match the criteria that they need to make the games they want to make. No issue, they just don't want to make top-notch game engines. That's all.

Current gen tech means anything similar to X360/PS3 on the 7th gen or anything similar to XOne/PS4 on the 8th gen. Basically you see how far are consoles going on each gen. Many PS2 were sold during 7th gen but that was not current gen at that time.

Above the average, I clearly defined that earlier: remove the shovelware, then make the average.

 

PenguinZ said:

What I've gotten from this thread is that everyone else does want Nintendont... Who cares if they aren't modelling realistic cities? Who cares if they aren't creating realistic shooters. Should they be held accountable for choosing not to do that? Should we hold other companies accountable for not going out of their comfort zone?

Realism is not the keyword here. Commitment, deepness are more like it. This is a very hard thing to explain but I will do my best.

As a fan of videogaming, what matters to me is that this industry produces high-quality games. That's what really matters. But quality is about how much a game is appreciated by each person. Then, it varies from gamer to gamer, because it is about tastes. Talking about tastes is going around in circles, it's not possible to argue on this field. What is awesome to someone may be awful to another (and even if it isn't so, one can say it is without having to prove anything, "it's just about my tastes", he/she could say). So, we only have 2 options if we want to debate quality: either we say it's only about tastes, each person has his own, end of the story, let's go out of this forum ; or we remove tastes from the equation and see what's left.

For those that stay on the "quality" debate, that's the big question: what's left? In my opinion, what's left is the commitment of each dev (effort/time/money) shown on measurable (objectivity) remarkable (relevance) achievements. Once it's measurable, it's not about subjectivity anymore and thus is give us a commong ground to debate. Once it's remarkable, it proves it is related to quality. Once it requires effort/time/money, it proves it is rare (only few are willing to spend so much resources) and thus it's valuable. Therefore, any achievement one can find that fits into this criteria is proof of commitment to work towards quality. Is this a perfect criteria? Not at all. Is this a good quality filter? Absolutely.

Realism is not really necessary. A made-up city may have required as much work as a realistic one. However, it is much easier to assess commitment on realistic games, once any deviation from reality means lack of effort. On the other hand, any lack of effort on the creation of a made-up city may be seen as an artistic option. The lack of effort is disguised here. An exellent example on how realism promotes effort is The Getaway:

- They have recreated the modern London. It's one of the very few sandbox games (if not the only one) that has recreated in 3D a real modern city. They had to buy cinematic equipment to capture every inch of every street to afterwards design it in 3D. They ended up skipping many streets and anyone can easily perceive that lack of effort. Yet, that small and truncated sample of London became a unique asset of the whole industry (as far as I know, there isn't out there any better recreation of a modern city). This achievement showed a great commitment from Team Soho and is one of the greatest software benchmarks that magnifies videogaming and imposes some respect to those that despise it.

- They have recreated real cars and real characters. Once more, they had to buy equipment that would let them capture and render those cars and characters. They were pioneers (the first or one of the first) in the movement capture of the bodies and facial expressions. They got to know real people with real lifes that were similar to the ones of the characters from the game. For example, to play the character of a boxer that was also a gangster they recruited a boxer that was also a gangster. To play the character of a high-profile business man, they convinced a real high-profile business man to enter in the project. Etc. These real people were rendered to the game, did all the action scenes to capture their movements and did their own voices too. This whole process demanded a lot of time, interviews, cinematic preparation, performances, etc. But the end result was absolutely remarkable: an immersive game like no other on the 6th generation.

Could have all this effort, investment, time-consuming and thorough work been done on a made-up city with made-up vehicles and made-up characters with made-up lives and made-up voices? Sure. Would it be likely to happen? Of course not. The motivation to avoid effort or time or money spending when such resources become painfully expensive is too big when there is an easy alternative to disguise them as "different artistic options".

Nintendo doesn't need to go out of their comfort zone. There are still plenty of "objective quality filters" that doesn't involve realism. Fully-editable levels, like LittleBigPlanet has, perfectly fits on the criteria mentioned above. Thousands of km2, like Fuel has, is another. But the point is that Nintendo has very little to show on here. Like the OP says, they have always avoided what is massive money spending, monsters of uncontrolled quality, bold concepts that could become state-of-the-art achievements. Nintendo games are nothing more than small and conventional fun experiences that can only be praised on a subjective analysis. Objectively, they are a nullity.

 

PenguinZ said:

Lets be realistic here... Nintendo doesn't meet YOUR criteria. You don't seem to agree how Nintendo does business, how they utilize their resources, or agree with their philosophies in general. You do not enjoy the type of games that Nintendo makes. You feel that they should offer more diversity and complexity. In your opinion you feel like they've damaged the industry with their actions. I get that, I respect that... I even agree with a few of the points you have brought up.  You have your own standard or perception on how games should be... That's fine, but please don't confuse truth with your perception of reality.

Not my criteria. As I said earlier, I disregard my tastes or the tastes of anybody else when talking about quality in a forum full of different people that have different perceptions of quality. Instead, I use objective criteria (universal truth) not to assess quality but to try to estimate it. You may find it good or bad, but it is indeed an estimation based on facts, not tastes. And even if you don't connect commitment to quality, that's fine, don't call it quality, call it commitment. The section 1.2 of the OP shows how commited Nintendo has been along the time.



Prediction made in 14/01/2014 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 100M      XOne: 70M      WiiU: 25M

Prediction made in 01/04/2016 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 100M      XOne: 50M      WiiU: 18M

Prediction made in 15/04/2017 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 90M      XOne: 40M      WiiU: 15M      Switch: 20M

Prediction made in 24/03/2018 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 110M      XOne: 50M      WiiU: 14M      Switch: 65M

AstroGamer said:

I am going to take piece by piece and reply to each point

1.1. What Nintendo does with your dollar

Your philosophy on the game industry business is a generally bad idea. It promotes stagnancy by keeping profits low. While "$1 in = $1 out" seems like a good concept, if you cannot sustain the $1 in part, you are already close to debt. It makes that 1 flop is even more dangerous. Lots of "debt to gamers" as you put it shows health in a gaming company.  The industry doesn't grow vertically then. The danger of a flop puts the company also in a less risky mood that less creative works get created and they don't need to make the next big thing. Instead of the industry growing exponentially, it grows at a steady slope or not at all. There would be more derivative series and less Wonderful 101 or Beyond: Two Souls or Xenoblades.

Nintendo has been always in a low risky mood regardless their losses or astronomical profits. This has more to do with a company's mindset than with its profits. A profitable company may naturally engage into big projects and today there's already many ways to control the risk of a game to become a flop. What that section of the OP criticizes is the attitude of a company that makes huge profits, doesn't engage into major risks, doesn't evolve like the others do, and see its profits to go from huge to astronomical while keeping a significant part (if not most) of it on its pockets.

 

AstroGamer said:

1.2. How Nintendo has evolved along the time

I don't get why this particularly bad especially with the previous section. maybe you think that Games should be become more like movie. Is realism innovation or is that merely going with the trends. And is it objectively better. The crux of how this is bad is that Nintendo is not following the industry trends. Moving the industry forward is making your own trends. Assuming that Modnation Racers or Spore advanced the industry forward isn't accurate. They advanced the industry in a tangental direction or we would see track editors in most racing game or there would be more games like Spore. However, I don't think you are completely wrong but they still evolve in some ways.

I reply to you what I wrote to PenguinZ:

"Realism is not the keyword here. Commitment, deepness are more like it. This is a very hard thing to explain but I will do my best.

As a fan of videogaming, what matters to me is that this industry produces high-quality games. That's what really matters. But quality is about how much a game is appreciated by each person. Then, it varies from gamer to gamer, because it is about tastes. Talking about tastes is going around in circles, it's not possible to argue on this field. What is awesome to someone may be awful to another (and even if it isn't so, one can say it is without having to prove anything, "it's just about my tastes", he/she could say). So, we only have 2 options if we want to debate quality: either we say it's only about tastes, each person has his own, end of the story, let's go out of this forum ; or we remove tastes from the equation and see what's left.

For those that stay on the "quality" debate, that's the big question: what's left? In my opinion, what's left is the commitment of each dev (effort/time/money) shown on measurable (objectivity) remarkable (relevance) achievements. Once it's measurable, it's not about subjectivity anymore and thus is give us a commong ground to debate. Once it's remarkable, it proves it is related to quality. Once it requires effort/time/money, it proves it is rare (only few are willing to spend so much resources) and thus it's valuable. Therefore, any achievement one can find that fits into this criteria is proof of commitment to work towards quality. Is this a perfect criteria? Not at all. Is this a good quality filter? Absolutely.

Realism is not really necessary. A made-up city may have required as much work as a realistic one. However, it is much easier to assess commitment on realistic games, once any deviation from reality means lack of effort. On the other hand, any lack of effort on the creation of a made-up city may be seen as an artistic option. The lack of effort is disguised here. An exellent example on how realism promotes effort is The Getaway:

- They have recreated the modern London. It's one of the very few sandbox games (if not the only one) that has recreated in 3D a real modern city. They had to buy cinematic equipment to capture every inch of every street to afterwards design it in 3D. They ended up skipping many streets and anyone can easily perceive that lack of effort. Yet, that small and truncated sample of London became a unique asset of the whole industry (as far as I know, there isn't out there any better recreation of a modern city). This achievement showed a great commitment from Team Soho and is one of the greatest software benchmarks that magnifies videogaming and imposes some respect to those that despise it.

- They have recreated real cars and real characters. Once more, they had to buy equipment that would let them capture and render those cars and characters. They were pioneers (the first or one of the first) in the movement capture of the bodies and facial expressions. They got to know real people with real lifes that were similar to the ones of the characters from the game. For example, to play the character of a boxer that was also a gangster they recruited a boxer that was also a gangster. To play the character of a high-profile business man, they convinced a real high-profile business man to enter in the project. Etc. These real people were rendered to the game, did all the action scenes to capture their movements and did their own voices too. This whole process demanded a lot of time, interviews, cinematic preparation, performances, etc. But the end result was absolutely remarkable: an immersive game like no other on the 6th generation.

Could have all this effort, investment, time-consuming and thorough work been done on a made-up city with made-up vehicles and made-up characters with made-up lives and made-up voices? Sure. Would it be likely to happen? Of course not. The motivation to avoid effort or time or money spending when such resources become painfully expensive is too big when there is an easy alternative to disguise them as "different artistic options".

Nintendo doesn't need to go out of their comfort zone. There are still plenty of "objective quality filters" that doesn't involve realism. Fully-editable levels, like LittleBigPlanet has, perfectly fits on the criteria mentioned above. Thousands of km2, like Fuel has, is another. But the point is that Nintendo has very little to show on here. Like the OP says, they have always avoided what is massive money spending, monsters of uncontrolled quality, bold concepts that could become state-of-the-art achievements. Nintendo games are nothing more than small and conventional fun experiences that can only be praised on a subjective analysis. Objectively, they are a nullity."

 

AstroGamer said:

1.3. What Nintendo is willing to offer

The problem with this is that too many games drop in price too fast and game sales are too front loaded for most non Nintendo games. The high value of Nintendo games acts as an insurance as you can resell the game for close to the original value or if you waited a couple months down the line, you wouldn't get a better deal. With most other games, in order to get you to buy the game on day one, they throw in a day-one DLC or preodrer bonuses and tack on a multiplayer since that's when the community would be largest. These kind of practices we dislike as gamers. As for the lower cost games, we have seen that a lot in the past 2 generations ie pack in Wiimote with Wii Play as the biggest example and their downloadable offerings. they offered NSLU as a standalone $30. They don't offer their main games at lower prices because of the value they percieve themselves. they percieve Super Mario 3D World as at least the value of Uncharted or Last of Us. While i agree they should lower their prices quicker for their big games (perhaps like the Nintendo Selects), behaving like the rest of the industry who have little respect for their initial customers is not the way to go.

Following pure supply/demand logic, the games should in fact drop the price like Sony and Microsoft do. Is that disrespecting the customers? I don't think so. Each gamer can make his/her own trade-off: pay more or wait more. What Nintendo does is being stubborn in an attempt to blackmail gamers in the long-term. They are the ones that are wrong and acting in bad faith. I find Sony's and Microsoft's consoles not only better but also more affordable considering the whole investment (console +  games + accessories). Anyone willing to wait will find that too.

 

AstroGamer said:

1.4. Nintendo’s policies towards gamers

The first example is telling of Nintendo's horrible past but isn't really indicative of modern Nintendo. The second example is while bad, is more indicative of their fear of piracy than control of the consumer. And Nintendo only really divides releases into 3 or 4 main regions for physical. If you are from say Latin America, you can import all your games from America since it should work on your system. The eShop's lack of presence in several countries is an issue though. The  more worrying problem is that Nintendo in its policies towards gamers is that nintendo is causing issues with fan community particularly the video making ones. Regardless of one's opinion of Youtubers, they use Youtube to work at the thing they enjoy. And then, they almost canceled EVO last year because of Melee. They need to promote the Youtube community better since its a very valuable one now that people trust them more than actual journalists.

Like I said to other user, when they had the opportunity X, they did Y. Now that they don't have X anymore, they can't do Y. But it doesn't mean they wouldn't like to if they had the chance again.

There are other ways to fight piracy without harming who's not guilty at all.



Prediction made in 14/01/2014 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 100M      XOne: 70M      WiiU: 25M

Prediction made in 01/04/2016 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 100M      XOne: 50M      WiiU: 18M

Prediction made in 15/04/2017 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 90M      XOne: 40M      WiiU: 15M      Switch: 20M

Prediction made in 24/03/2018 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 110M      XOne: 50M      WiiU: 14M      Switch: 65M

Zod95 said:
PenguinZ said:

What I've gotten from this thread is that everyone else does want Nintendont... Who cares if they aren't modelling realistic cities? Who cares if they aren't creating realistic shooters. Should they be held accountable for choosing not to do that? Should we hold other companies accountable for not going out of their comfort zone?

Realism is not the keyword here. Commitment, deepness are more like it. This is a very hard thing to explain but I will do my best.

As a fan of videogaming, what matters to me is that this industry produces high-quality games. That's what really matters. But quality is about how much a game is appreciated by each person. Then, it varies from gamer to gamer, because it is about tastes. Talking about tastes is going around in circles, it's not possible to argue on this field. What is awesome to someone may be awful to another (and even if it isn't so, one can say it is without having to prove anything, "it's just about my tastes", he/she could say). So, we only have 2 options if we want to debate quality: either we say it's only about tastes, each person has his own, end of the story, let's go out of this forum ; or we remove tastes from the equation and see what's left.

For those that stay on the "quality" debate, that's the big question: what's left? In my opinion, what's left is the commitment of each dev (effort/time/money) shown on measurable (objectivity) remarkable (relevance) achievements. Once it's measurable, it's not about subjectivity anymore and thus is give us a commong ground to debate. Once it's remarkable, it proves it is related to quality. Once it requires effort/time/money, it proves it is rare (only few are willing to spend so much resources) and thus it's valuable. Therefore, any achievement one can find that fits into this criteria is proof of commitment to work towards quality. Is this a perfect criteria? Not at all. Is this a good quality filter? Absolutely.

Realism is not really necessary. A made-up city may have required as much work as a realistic one. However, it is much easier to assess commitment on realistic games, once any deviation from reality means lack of effort. On the other hand, any lack of effort on the creation of a made-up city may be seen as an artistic option. The lack of effort is disguised here. An exellent example on how realism promotes effort is The Getaway:

- They have recreated the modern London. It's one of the very few sandbox games (if not the only one) that has recreated in 3D a real modern city. They had to buy cinematic equipment to capture every inch of every street to afterwards design it in 3D. They ended up skipping many streets and anyone can easily perceive that lack of effort. Yet, that small and truncated sample of London became a unique asset of the whole industry (as far as I know, there isn't out there any better recreation of a modern city). This achievement showed a great commitment from Team Soho and is one of the greatest software benchmarks that magnifies videogaming and imposes some respect to those that despise it.

- They have recreated real cars and real characters. Once more, they had to buy equipment that would let them capture and render those cars and characters. They were pioneers (the first or one of the first) in the movement capture of the bodies and facial expressions. They got to know real people with real lifes that were similar to the ones of the characters from the game. For example, to play the character of a boxer that was also a gangster they recruited a boxer that was also a gangster. To play the character of a high-profile business man, they convinced a real high-profile business man to enter in the project. Etc. These real people were rendered to the game, did all the action scenes to capture their movements and did their own voices too. This whole process demanded a lot of time, interviews, cinematic preparation, performances, etc. But the end result was absolutely remarkable: an immersive game like no other on the 6th generation.

Could have all this effort, investment, time-consuming and thorough work been done on a made-up city with made-up vehicles and made-up characters with made-up lives and made-up voices? Sure. Would it be likely to happen? Of course not. The motivation to avoid effort or time or money spending when such resources become painfully expensive is too big when there is an easy alternative to disguise them as "different artistic options".

Nintendo doesn't need to go out of their comfort zone. There are still plenty of "objective quality filters" that doesn't involve realism. Fully-editable levels, like LittleBigPlanet has, perfectly fits on the criteria mentioned above. Thousands of km2, like Fuel has, is another. But the point is that Nintendo has very little to show on here. Like the OP says, they have always avoided what is massive money spending, monsters of uncontrolled quality, bold concepts that could become state-of-the-art achievements. Nintendo games are nothing more than small and conventional fun experiences that can only be praised on a subjective analysis. Objectively, they are a nullity.

 


@bolded: The foundation of your objective argument is your subjective opinon and your list of objective criteria is subjectively chosen.

@underlined: If we assume the statement to be true, then logically, there exists quality games that don't meet the criteria. In other words, the criteria may filter for quality games, but the games filtered out aren't certain to be poor (see denying the antecedent).



mysteryman aka JohnLucas said:


@bolded: The foundation of your objective argument is your subjective opinon and your list of objective criteria is subjectively chosen.

@underlined: If we assume the statement to be true, then logically, there exists quality games that don't meet the criteria. In other words, the criteria may filter for quality games, but the games filtered out aren't certain to be poor (see denying the antecedent).

The requirements are objectively chosen (and anyone can freely add more as long as they meet the criteria) but the foundation of the criteria is indeed subjective. Yet, I'm open to other views. And, although other views may be legitimate, mine is too. In other words, they could be different routes to get to different quality games. My route definitely leaves quality games filtered out, you're right. And other routes could catch them. However, I'm not seeing those other routes. Be my guest to show me any.

Nevertheless, it's just odd that Nintendo performs so badly on my criteria. But then, if we start to connect the dots, we realize it's not that odd. The way Nintendo got clinged to old concepts, the way they lagged behind on the generations, the way they shifted their focus to a less demanding audience (kids), the astronomical profits they made and the obscene ROI they got...there are too many facts pointing out to the same conclusion: Nintendo is not committed to quality.



Prediction made in 14/01/2014 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 100M      XOne: 70M      WiiU: 25M

Prediction made in 01/04/2016 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 100M      XOne: 50M      WiiU: 18M

Prediction made in 15/04/2017 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 90M      XOne: 40M      WiiU: 15M      Switch: 20M

Prediction made in 24/03/2018 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 110M      XOne: 50M      WiiU: 14M      Switch: 65M