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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Ubisoft wanted Splinter Cell: Blacklist to sell 5 million copies - only sold 2 million

Daisuke72 said:
superhippy420 said:


The thing is though is those are just pure development costs.    Sony also has to pay a hefty cut to retailers, shipping costs, marketing costs, and whatever other stuff Sony needs to pay for.   Theres just no way a game like Killzone 2's total costs were only 40m. while Saints Row were 123 m.          Its actually pretty crazy how much of the total costs actually go into devolopment.  I saw somewhere that GTAV's development costs alone were about 200+m. so they may have actually spent 400m. after all the marketing (which there was a TON of) and the cuts to the retailers.    Obviously is was worth it for them, but the total cost to these companies can be insane.   Nintendo has been avoiding marketing costs for years, but I think they need to invest some $$$ into the Wii U.   All the ad's they put out at holiday time obviously helped sales.

Once again you're uninformed, first party games net Sony around $40 a copy, and why isn't it possible for Killzone's budget to be only 40M? And why are you running with that clearly overblown and guessed Saint's Row budget? Your argument makes 0 sense.

Development costs don't include marketing/advertising costs. $60m for Killzone 2 is more realistic.



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JustThatGamer said:
superhippy420 said:

The cost of game development is the main reason why I think Sony will be in big trouble in the coming years, unless their 1st party games start to sell much better.   A game like SM3DW sells 1.5 million (90 million in revenue) and I wouldnt be shocked if Nintendo is already making a profit on it or has atleast broken even.  A game like Killzone Shadow Fall sells 1.2 million (72 million in revenue) and it may not even be halfway to breaking even, considering how much more it must cost to develop a game with the specs that it has.  Hopefully Sony's 1st party sales really pick up because for as much as we all talk about console sales, they don't really mean anything in terms of the parent company's success.   The gamecube only sold 20 million consoles but Nintendo sold 72 million 1st party games and actually made more money off it then Sony did off the PS3.


Don't worry about Sony's 1st party games. I mean, God of War III, Uncharted 2/3 and LittleBigPlanet all sold 5-6m. GT5 sold 10m+. That's 5 huge 1st party games right there and The Last of Us is also going to sell 5-6m. Then you have all the 2-4m sellers like Killzone 2/3, Infamous, Uncharted 1, Heavy Rain, LBP2, GT6, Motorstorm, Resistance 1/2 etc.

Most video games don't need to sell as much as you think to break even or make profit. Take God of War: Ascension for example, it cost about the same to develop as God of War III at $44 million (total budget) and even though it sold about 2m by the end of December 2013, which is only half as much as God of War III achieved in the same amount of time, it still made all its money back and then some.

Look at this GFK data for European software sales and revenue from January to June 2013: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=668021

As you can see in the case of Sony's God of War: Ascension it made over $35 million by June in Europe alone, when you consider that it sold twice as much in the US and then factor in Japan and the rest of the world it made roughly $130 million by June 2013 and only cost Sony around $40 million. If you fast forward to December 2013 it's now sold roughly 2m and made $170m+ or around $130m+ in profit. I don't know how much of the revenue Sony actually get but I'm guessing it's a good majority of it and they are making a heck of a lot of money.

So if even God of War: Ascension made that much money just imagine how much all the really big 5/6m+ exclusive games made? The 2-4 million sellers are making huge money and Sony has plenty of those as well as all their 1m+ sellers like Heavenly Sword, Infamous 2, Resistance 3, Beyond Two Souls, Ratchet & Clank games etc. So again, don't worry about Sony's 1st party, they are doing brilliantly and will only go from strength to strength on the PS4.

 

Shame about the Splinter Cell series, I loved Chaos Theory but Double Agent and Conviction just wern't that good and so I never even tried Blacklist.

lol no. Far from it.

1. We have it at 1.6m at the moment. 1.6m * $60 = $96m (at full price)
2. That's just the revenue it caused. Using this Sony makes $34 per game, so 1.6m * $34 = $54.4m (at full price !)
3. Obviously Sony didn't sell 1.6m copies at full price.
In the US: half price since May: https://web.archive.org/web/20130521023826/http://www.amazon.com/God-War-Ascension-Playstation-3/dp/B007TYC8MI
= 10 weeks or about 700k units at full or near full price = 0.7m * $34 = $23.8m
For the rest ~250k = 0.25m * $17 = $4.25m
= ~$28m

In Europe: half price since July: https://web.archive.org/web/20130728204104/http://www.amazon.de/Sony-God-of-War-Ascension/dp/B0080E49IM
(earlier in the UK but likely at the same time in the other European countries) = 20 weeks or about 350k at near full price
The Games in Europe usually vary from 60€ to 70€, so I'm taking 65€. (less in the UK)
They include ~20% tax, so to make it comparable to the US we need to take them off. That makes 52€ or $71. Using same percentage for the breakdown, Sony makes $40 per game (at full price)
= 0.35m * $40 = $14m
For the rest 0.1m * $20 = $2m
= ~ $16m

~200k missing from the Others region. Hard to tell obviously but around $5m.

= ~$49m Sony made from the game.

Budget is "a mid double digit million amount" so probably anything between $40m and $60m. Not including marketing/advertising costs so surely $10m on top of that, so probably $50m - $70m as a whole.
_________________________________________________________________________________________

Hopefully you (and others) now got a better understanding why games NEED high sales. Third party developers even more since they get ~12% less per game (due to the platform royalties).



Dgc1808 said:
superhippy420 said:

The thing is though is those are just pure development costs.    Sony also has to pay a hefty cut to retailers, shipping costs, marketing costs, and whatever other stuff Sony needs to pay for.   Theres just no way a game like Killzone 2's total costs were only 40m. while Saints Row were 123 m.          Its actually pretty crazy how much of the total costs actually go into devolopment.  I saw somewhere that GTAV's development costs alone were about 200+m. so they may have actually spent 400m. after all the marketing (which there was a TON of) and the cuts to the retailers.    Obviously is was worth it for them, but the total cost to these companies can be insane.   Nintendo has been avoiding marketing costs for years, but I think they need to invest some $$$ into the Wii U.   All the ad's they put out at holiday time obviously helped sales.


I think you're underestimating the amount of money SONY makes on a 1st party sale and overestimating the cost of getting a game out of a store and into the hands of a consumer. Look at Heavy Rain for example. that was a well marketted game with AAA production value. Development and marketting are the too biggest chunks of the budget and in total that was just over $52M for SONY. They only spent about $30.4M on the ads and that was a very well advertised game by SONY standards. The game hasn't even hit 3M yet it's put out $180M+ $130M+ in revenue for SONY.  Killzone did significanly better sales wise and Gran Turismo 5 sold at least 5-6M at full price. 

On top of the money the make on first party, you've got third party royalty fees that help them out. The bulk of Playstation's financial woes are really just tied to hardware sales. Selling a console and praying for a strong attach ratio in the early years to keep you financially healthy just isn't an awesome business model. SONY and Microsoft have proven that on a number of occassions now. 

A lot of these 3rd parties like Rockstar and THQ are operating really inefficiently or doing something else seriously wrong.  You would think they would be much more strict about this seeing as they make less than a first party publisher with each sale. I'm still trying to wrap my head around Modern Warfare2 costing Activision $40M+ in development alone. Then you have these summer blockbuster movie industry styled marketting strategies with costs in the 100s of millions to get their games featured in a commercial every 5-10mins and featured on cans for multiple brands of soda. It's not even optional. They've got to do this to make sure the game sells and actually makes up it's already crazy cost.

EDITED

Out of all users I didn't expect such an experienced one to make such a comment.

We know that he took the sales of the game, multiplied it by the full price of one unit and then told everyone that this is the amount Sony got in the end.
Proof:

At the time Heavy Rain didn't even ship 3m units (that happened in August), so maybe 2.9m shipped and 2.8m sold.
He said Sony made over 100m € with it. So $130m is the bare minimum he was talking about.
Sony gets according to him: $130m / 2.8m = $46.4 per game (minimum)
That's not even possible IF all 2.8m units were sold at full price. In realtity not even half of that were sold at full price.

Therefore he must have used $60 or the equivalent European recommended retail price without taxes.

I did the calculation two times before I think and I came to the conclusion that it made a profit of around $30m or so. Can't fully remember.



Rogerioandrade said:
outlawauron said:
Rogerioandrade said:
you know... when games need to sell 5 million to give their developer some profit, something wrong is really going on in this industry....
Didn´t people learn from Square Enix mistakes last year ?

This statement your making has nothing to do with what they've said.


Publishers wants to do expotentially better than just profitting. They want Splinter Cell to do well enough to finance multiple games on its own.

Either way or another, it´s an unsustainable situation. If a franchise is only manageable if it sells more than 5 million, a number that very, very few games achieve, then someone is not  paying attention to the signs of the market.  The AAA paradigm is not sustainable anymore

I don't disagree with that idea, but let's hope no one thinks these games aren't breaking even. They're just expected to carry the company.



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Barozi said:

Dgc1808 said:

 Development and marketting are the too biggest chunks of the budget and in total that was just over $52M for SONY. They only spent about $30.4M on the ads and that was a very well advertised game by SONY standards. The game hasn't even hit 3M yet it's put out $180M+ $130M+ in revenue for SONY.  Killzone did significanly better sales wise and Gran Turismo 5 sold at least 5-6M at full price. 

Out of all users I didn't expect such an experienced one to make such a comment.

We know that he took the sales of the game, multiplied it by the full price of one unit and then told everyone that this is the amount Sony got in the end.
Proof:

At the time Heavy Rain didn't even ship 3m units (that happened in August), so maybe 2.9m shipped and 2.8m sold.
He said Sony made over 100m € with it. So $130m is the bare minimum he was talking about.
Sony gets according to him: $130m / 2.8m = $46.4 per game (minimum)
That's not even possible IF all 2.8m units were sold at full price. In realtity not even half of that were sold at full price.

Therefore he must have used $60 or the equivalent European recommended retail price without taxes.

I did the calculation two times before I think and I came to the conclusion that it made a profit of around $30m or so. Can't fully remember.

Now that you point it out, the numbers are a stretch. I didn't do any math but the reason why I simply took this is because I looked up the original source. The numbers were stated by Guillaume de Fondaumiere. Not just a community manager for the dev team or a guy on twitter but the actual co-CEO of Quantic Dream,  Executive Producer for the studio's projects. He's also been head figure of major game related organizations like the European Games Developer Federation. I would think if this man says "Made SONY 100M Euro in revenue", his word is as solid as it gets. The game does have 1 piece of 5$ DLC and a 3$ theme in the store but that revenue number still seems pretty high.

EDITED



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