By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Nintendo Discussion - The origin of "casual/hardcore gamers" and other industry bullshit.

Tagged games:

kabamarutr said:
DonFerrari said:
And apparently the gaming industrie have been growing with these so called hardcores from PS1 100M to PS2 160M to PS3+X360 currently at 160M... while going casual Nintendo have hit just one time 100M but not the same level of SW attach ratio... so why would pubs give more attention to "hardcores"??

I'm so tired of the victimism (from feminists and some winny gammers)... they try to invert logic, like its devs fault for not catering for them and not them investing in devs that cater... if devs get their money from their supporters for those kind of games why would they allienate the granted buyers to try and cater to people that don't know why they buy and what to buy?


I agree with this and will add some.

Indeed, the gaming industry has been growing. Just add the total sales for each generation and you will see it clearly. The allocation of those new entries demonstrates the gaming style of preference. Clearly there is a grand amount of people out there who want to play "casually". This does not mean Nintendo. It means that when they get home after a tiring day, they need to settle and relax with a game that does not require much on behalf of the player. Some simple arcade, a mindless shooter or whatever fits your bill.

We then come to a point where the industry seeks what those people like to play. Is it shooters? Do shooters sell? They will mass-produce them until they become unprofitable again. Is it motion games, with cameras or other devices? The market will be flooded with those. If the analysts believe that the profit will be worth it, whole console developping strategies will be based on it (see XB1 and Kinect2).

We need to understand that the industry is a soulless and money eating beast (and rightly so). They don't care what "the few" like. They will fork out what people buys most -> what will bring them more profit. I, myself, hate this. I tend to cling to indie games which bring me the nostalgia of the "old school": the 8-bit and 16-bit. But I cannot expect the industry to go back to the late 80s.

To conclude, such was Nintendo's decision regarding Wii. They anticipated that motion sensing is what people are going to go crazy about and invested on it. They wanted the money and they succeeded. Such was their success, that the other two dropped the "mantle of seriousness" and set sail to the same direction. Because in that direction lied the pot of gold, at least at the time.

You were spot on... market sell and develop to what they think is profitable and don't care much about to who they sell just how much it sell... marketing will always try to put their product with a nice image, sometimes that image would be hardcore and other would be seem as casual (but usually that is more related to our bias on the subject than what the market really wants).

I don't see it as inteligent to just try to sell to minorities and hope to profit instead to sell to majority and broaden the chance of sucess... and if Ninty is being left aside they should be the ones trying to change their images not the devs.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Around the Network
Soundwave said:


Nintendo does market and design their hardware/software more for kids than the other game makers too ... it's not like they're all neutral and somehow Nintendo gets painted with a "kiddy" brush for no reason. That's like Prince being upset that people call him effeminiate ... well the voice and wearing purple velvet and a fluffy shirt kinda with women's mascara kinda gives off a certain image. 

Nintendo chooses to have the image they have. The majority of their games are so bright/cheery/colorful they make even Disney cartoons seem gritty by comparision in some cases. 





Things that need to die in 2016: Defeatist attitudes of Nintendo fans

think-man said:
The image Nintendo consoles have does scream casual more so than the other 2 consoles on the market, not sure how to got to this stage but the Wii probably didn't help it's image ( In the hardcore sense).

Nintendo consoles have been the "uncool" console for a while now. We hear of the console wars but it's basically always been Sony vs MS with Nintendo fans waving their arms in the background wanting to join the war.

The image that you speak of is the game industry marketing. And it has been succeeding.



I LOVE ICELAND!

When you make a console that looks like a purple lunchbox, and has a controller that looks like a fisher price toy, then people are going to assume your product is meant for children.

The casual gaming market simply refers to games that have short play sessions, like Brain Age or Candy Crush.

There is no such thing as "hardcore gaming," unless you are talking about those Japanese erotic themed games. Gamers that call themselves hardcore are usually insecure teenaged boys, or this:



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

kabamarutr said:
Let's add some more...

Perhaps, this will make seem a little mean towards ninty, but what the heck, we're having a discussion here.

I'd like you to consider what was Nintendo's move after the Wii. Seeing "the rise of tablets" (who would have missed it?) they tried to merge the two worlds. They created a tablet-joypad to appeal to tablet lovers and embedded the innovation of dual screen gameplay. A sound strategy, if I've ever seen any. So they rushed to get to that ground first. Be the first to grasp that market. They didn't need a strong machine for that! So they set upon the conquest of a new gaming trend.

Yet, it didn't work out (so far at least), as the essence that drew gamers to tablet gaming was not the tablet itself. It was the nature of its games. Connect three gems in a line and here the rewarding "bling", accompanied with flashes and colours and topped with a counter that changes its dials with speed like the old-time cash counters. Bringing, in this manner, the feelings of success, rewarding, glamour, glory and...profit with a few, nearly mindless moves. Rewarding that they didn't find in family life, job or otherwise. Success, that does not come easily, despite the full hours of every day hard work and the toll they take. Glory, that is so praised on movies and shows and so coveted. Money, which is as real in their pockets, as the numbers on the counter.

It's pure psychology.

Just to make things clear. Even from the get-go, Nintendo positioned the Wii as being for EVERYONE. They showed Wii Sports along with Zelda TP and Metroid Prime, as well as a trailer for Mario Galaxy during the Wii reveal. Nintendo's aim was disruptive innovation, IE serve the low-end market, and then with technology advances of their disruptive innovation, they would be able to get to the high tier, pushing their competitors higher and higher up until they are forced out of the market. Also, during their 2008 peak, the Wii alone sold twice the software of the PS3 or 360.

I'm not trying to defend the Wii U. It didn't continue the disruptive trend in the way it was supposed to. But what you cannot say about it was that it was only marketed for "teh cazualz". Again. Look at the games Nintendo are publishing for it. There is a great deal of variety.

The thing is, that when the Wii hit the world. The game industry had been busy for decades optimizing the userbase of young males, and thus alienating all other markets. So they reacted very hostile to the Wii, because the Wii also catered to markets that went against their user base optimization. Sure, they tried to change later by making the spin off "for casualz" kinect and move, but look how that turned out. They never tried to expand gaming, they just released a pink "for girls" chocolate bar.



I LOVE ICELAND!

Around the Network
AZWification said:
think-man said:
The image Nintendo consoles have does scream casual more so than the other 2 consoles on the market, not sure how to got to this stage but the Wii probably didn't help it's image ( In the hardcore sense).

Nintendo consoles have been the "uncool" console for a while now. We hear of the console wars but it's basically always been Sony vs MS with Nintendo fans waving their arms in the background wanting to join the war.

      Nintendo fans are not going to join the war if Nintendo doesn't do something to change the kiddy and casual image they  have. They have a lot of work to do.

You're being part of the problem when you say that. Nintendo never intended to be seen as "the kid console" or "the casual console". All of that toxic lingo comes from the game industry.



I LOVE ICELAND!

RolStoppable said:

The problem with discussing an article like this is that there is not much of a discussion to be had with the Soundwaves and pokokos of this world. They are right in the bubble where they not only perceive gaming as hardcore vs. casual, but are hostile against the very idea that that entire context is imaginary and was set up by marketers (because the old context of branding Nintendo as "kiddie" didn't work anymore with all those adults across the world playing DS and Wii). Admitting that it is bullshit would mean that they've been played by marketing for years. So it's not easy to get out of that self-feeding cycle, also because if they stay in, they get to keep their aura of superiority.

The reality of the situation is that Nintendo became an enemy of the video game industry, because they didn't conform to the rules. They didn't perpetuate the superiority of the young male gamer; it's also conveniently ignored that it wasn't possible for Nintendo to do that in the first place, because the industry's marketing kept harping on Nintendo hardware by declaring it to be for inferior gamers (SNES, N64, GC, Wii, Wii U). Somebody has to be the scapegoat for this kind of marketing to work.

So even if Nintendo conformed to industry standards, their sales would go down; because the industry's target demographic gets told that they should buy PlayStations and Xboxes, and the people who would play Nintendo games would get locked out by high hardware prices and a lame controller. So Nintendo is forced to divert from the industry norm in order to find success; then in turn they get blamed for doing it by the very same people who forced Nintendo to go in a different direction in the first place.

It's a perfect setup for the industry to keep pushing their narrative that Nintendo doesn't get gaming. Just like the great console war between Sony and Microsoft is a great tool. The marketing and PR works in a direction where the declared hardcore gamers are too busy fighting over which version of a multiplatform game has more grass, seemingly oblivious to having their rights removed one step at a time and getting milked with more and more special editions and DLC. And when someone stops for a moment to ask "Wait, wait, wait... what has gaming become? It didn't used to be this way.", then the answer is that all those anti-gamer moves were necessary for the industry to survive and keep the great games coming, accompanied by the notion that it could be worse: The alternative is Nintendo who suck, suck, and suck some more.

I agree. It's sad to see how people can hold on to such stupid sterotypes about gaming, and how viciously they defend them.

People seem to forget so easily how people spoke about gaming before the Wii. Noone said casual back then. Ever.



I LOVE ICELAND!

KungKras said:
kabamarutr said:
Let's add some more...

Perhaps, this will make seem a little mean towards ninty, but what the heck, we're having a discussion here.

I'd like you to consider what was Nintendo's move after the Wii. Seeing "the rise of tablets" (who would have missed it?) they tried to merge the two worlds. They created a tablet-joypad to appeal to tablet lovers and embedded the innovation of dual screen gameplay. A sound strategy, if I've ever seen any. So they rushed to get to that ground first. Be the first to grasp that market. They didn't need a strong machine for that! So they set upon the conquest of a new gaming trend.

Yet, it didn't work out (so far at least), as the essence that drew gamers to tablet gaming was not the tablet itself. It was the nature of its games. Connect three gems in a line and here the rewarding "bling", accompanied with flashes and colours and topped with a counter that changes its dials with speed like the old-time cash counters. Bringing, in this manner, the feelings of success, rewarding, glamour, glory and...profit with a few, nearly mindless moves. Rewarding that they didn't find in family life, job or otherwise. Success, that does not come easily, despite the full hours of every day hard work and the toll they take. Glory, that is so praised on movies and shows and so coveted. Money, which is as real in their pockets, as the numbers on the counter.

It's pure psychology.

Just to make things clear. Even from the get-go, Nintendo positioned the Wii as being for EVERYONE. They showed Wii Sports along with Zelda TP and Metroid Prime, as well as a trailer for Mario Galaxy during the Wii reveal. Nintendo's aim was disruptive innovation, IE serve the low-end market, and then with technology advances of their disruptive innovation, they would be able to get to the high tier, pushing their competitors higher and higher up until they are forced out of the market. Also, during their 2008 peak, the Wii alone sold twice the software of the PS3 or 360.

I'm not trying to defend the Wii U. It didn't continue the disruptive trend in the way it was supposed to. But what you cannot say about it was that it was only marketed for "teh cazualz". Again. Look at the games Nintendo are publishing for it. There is a great deal of variety.

The thing is, that when the Wii hit the world. The game industry had been busy for decades optimizing the userbase of young males, and thus alienating all other markets. So they reacted very hostile to the Wii, because the Wii also catered to markets that went against their user base optimization. Sure, they tried to change later by making the spin off "for casualz" kinect and move, but look how that turned out. They never tried to expand gaming, they just released a pink "for girls" chocolate bar.

And we how much Wii catering to "casuals" helped them after the first few years.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

KungKras said:
RolStoppable said:

The problem with discussing an article like this is that there is not much of a discussion to be had with the Soundwaves and pokokos of this world. They are right in the bubble where they not only perceive gaming as hardcore vs. casual, but are hostile against the very idea that that entire context is imaginary and was set up by marketers (because the old context of branding Nintendo as "kiddie" didn't work anymore with all those adults across the world playing DS and Wii). Admitting that it is bullshit would mean that they've been played by marketing for years. So it's not easy to get out of that self-feeding cycle, also because if they stay in, they get to keep their aura of superiority.

The reality of the situation is that Nintendo became an enemy of the video game industry, because they didn't conform to the rules. They didn't perpetuate the superiority of the young male gamer; it's also conveniently ignored that it wasn't possible for Nintendo to do that in the first place, because the industry's marketing kept harping on Nintendo hardware by declaring it to be for inferior gamers (SNES, N64, GC, Wii, Wii U). Somebody has to be the scapegoat for this kind of marketing to work.

So even if Nintendo conformed to industry standards, their sales would go down; because the industry's target demographic gets told that they should buy PlayStations and Xboxes, and the people who would play Nintendo games would get locked out by high hardware prices and a lame controller. So Nintendo is forced to divert from the industry norm in order to find success; then in turn they get blamed for doing it by the very same people who forced Nintendo to go in a different direction in the first place.

It's a perfect setup for the industry to keep pushing their narrative that Nintendo doesn't get gaming. Just like the great console war between Sony and Microsoft is a great tool. The marketing and PR works in a direction where the declared hardcore gamers are too busy fighting over which version of a multiplatform game has more grass, seemingly oblivious to having their rights removed one step at a time and getting milked with more and more special editions and DLC. And when someone stops for a moment to ask "Wait, wait, wait... what has gaming become? It didn't used to be this way.", then the answer is that all those anti-gamer moves were necessary for the industry to survive and keep the great games coming, accompanied by the notion that it could be worse: The alternative is Nintendo who suck, suck, and suck some more.

I agree. It's sad to see how people can hold on to such stupid sterotypes about gaming, and how viciously they defend them.

People seem to forget so easily how people spoke about gaming before the Wii. Noone said casual back then. Ever.

The term casual floated around, but it applied to what is now called the dudebro gamer, the ones who bought Madden and GTA for their PS2s or Madden and Halo for their Xboxes and that was about it. The funnier reaction was how rapidly previously-derided games like GTA and Halo for being too mainstream suddenly became the holy grails of "real" gaming.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

I have been explaining several of these points to people for years now. Disruptive marketing deserves support, they are the people who are going to keep this industry alive. Sony and Microsoft are fighting tooth and nail to kill it with same old graphics and hardcore bullshit. It's a pit that they just keep digging.

There's evidence of this too. Games have gotten progressively worse and more narrow in scope over the years. We used to get all kinds of RPGs and other weird games, now they all get locked in Japan. More and more game companies are churning out FPS games and too many of them are being made. The ones who churn out the less popular FPS is going to go bankrupt because why buy one of the dozen FPS games that came out this month with a meta score of 80 when there's half a dozen with a meta score of 90...

Girl gaming is a dangerous move and there's no question about that, but do you really think devs can support next gen gaming graphics if the market stays the same size as it already is? Furthermore, if the game genres available stays the same or shrinks, so will the overall amount of gamers.