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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Addressing The Argument That Japanese Developers Are Not As Good As Western

pokoko said:
KingdomHeartsFan said:
pokoko said:

Borderlands 1 & 2, Torchlight 1 & 2, Fallout 3 & New Vegas, Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, Dragon Age 1 & 2, Deponia, Dead Island, Tomb Raider (2013), Deus Ex: Human Revolution, Alan Wake, BioShock Infinite, The Last of Us, Alan Wake, Dishonored, Saint's Row the Third, The Witcher 1 & 2, Batman: Arkham Asylum, the Assassin's Creed games, the Mass Effect games, Darksiders 1 & 2, Just Cause 2, Far Cry 2 & 3, XCOM: Enemy Unknown, All the Grand Theft Auto games, Hitman: Absolution, LA Noire, Red Dead Redemption, Psychonauts, the Fable games, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, Dead Space, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning, Infamous 2, Lego City ...  I think that's enough to make my point.  Everything there averages over 10 hours just for the main story and more for people who do side objectives.


Fuse, fracture, fear 2 and 3, frontlines fuel of war, gun, goldeneye 007 reloaded, homefront, inversion, injustice gods amoung us, kane and lynch 1 and 2 dog days, killzone 2, 3 and liberation, basically every kinect game, lair, lego batman 1 and 2, mag, perfect dark zero.

Ugh.  Nevermind, man.  Just go ahead with your generalizations.  It's completely meaningless but I no longer have any interest in this.  Still, really, a fighting game?  An online only game?  Really?

... nevermind.  


You didn't see me complaining when you picked an MMO...I never generalized all western games as being around 8 hours, I said most.  Most means 50.0000001% or more.



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These days I give the edge to western developers, for the simple fact that gameplay-wise, many Japanese developers are still stuck in the 90's and early 00's.

GTAV alone drops its drawers and takes a massive dump on any Japanese-developed game released this year.



On 2/24/13, MB1025 said:
You know I was always wondering why no one ever used the dollar sign for $ony, but then I realized they have no money so it would be pointless.

NightDragon83 said:
These days I give the edge to western developers, for the simple fact that gameplay-wise, many Japanese developers are still stuck in the 90's and early 00's.

GTAV alone drops its drawers and takes a massive dump on any Japanese-developed game released this year.


GTA is one game and you're making it seem like it represents all Western gaming.  Then you take a handful of Japanese games and make it seem like those represent all of Japanese games.  

I don't really think you know much about what Japanese games are being developed and more about the ones people complain about being this and that (even though there are still plenty of people ASKING for these things still).  



I believe Japan still has the top spot when it comes to game making.
In the last gen we've seen games like Mario Galaxy 1 & 2, Zelda Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword, Bayonetta, and Xenoblade Chronicles demonstrate plenty of talent and creativity left in Japanese devs.



MDMAlliance said:
NightDragon83 said:
These days I give the edge to western developers, for the simple fact that gameplay-wise, many Japanese developers are still stuck in the 90's and early 00's.

GTAV alone drops its drawers and takes a massive dump on any Japanese-developed game released this year.


GTA is one game and you're making it seem like it represents all Western gaming.  Then you take a handful of Japanese games and make it seem like those represent all of Japanese games.  

I don't really think you know much about what Japanese games are being developed and more about the ones people complain about being this and that (even though there are still plenty of people ASKING for these things still).  

GTA is one of the pinnacles of western gaming over the past decade, and by far the most anticipated release of this year, so why not?

And there's more than just "a handful" of Japanese games that have the problem I mentioned, which is why many Japanese companies have been experiencing a struggle with sales of some of their biggest franchises over the last few years... Squeenix immediately comes to mind, as do companies like Capcom and Konami to a lesser extent.  Even the mighty Nintendo, which just a few short years ago seemed once again infallable is now also struggling again.



On 2/24/13, MB1025 said:
You know I was always wondering why no one ever used the dollar sign for $ony, but then I realized they have no money so it would be pointless.

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NightDragon83 said:
MDMAlliance said:
NightDragon83 said:
These days I give the edge to western developers, for the simple fact that gameplay-wise, many Japanese developers are still stuck in the 90's and early 00's.

GTAV alone drops its drawers and takes a massive dump on any Japanese-developed game released this year.


GTA is one game and you're making it seem like it represents all Western gaming.  Then you take a handful of Japanese games and make it seem like those represent all of Japanese games.  

I don't really think you know much about what Japanese games are being developed and more about the ones people complain about being this and that (even though there are still plenty of people ASKING for these things still).  

GTA is one of the pinnacles of western gaming over the past decade, and by far the most anticipated release of this year, so why not?

And there's more than just "a handful" of Japanese games that have the problem I mentioned, which is why many Japanese companies have been experiencing a struggle with sales of some of their biggest franchises over the last few years... Squeenix immediately comes to mind, as do companies like Capcom and Konami to a lesser extent.  Even the mighty Nintendo, which just a few short years ago seemed once again infallable is now also struggling again.


Tell me, what about GTAV is so much more innovative than any Japanese game has, that makes Western games superior?  What makes Japanese games supposedly stuck in the past?  Have you seen Youkai Watch?  Monster Hunter 4?  Pokemon X and Y?  Last year's Kid Icarus: Uprising?  Ni No Kuni?  Are you going to say all of those games are just copying old gameplay styles while GTAV is so different from its previous iteration?  If I recall correctly, the core gameplay of GTAV is the same as the previous iteration, but it adds other things to spice things up.  Well, the exact same could be said about the games I listed.  What makes GTAV so much better?  Also, there are a lot of Western games that are doing the exact thing you seem to claim Japanese games are doing.  Don't just start cherry picking the games to best suit your argument.  

I do not think Japanese games are superior to Western games, I personally think on average that they appeal to different audiences, but BOTH Japanese and Western games have seen changes.  How successful the games with these changes are up for debate.



KylieDog said:
KingdomHeartsFan said:
KylieDog said:
Japan doesn't evolve much, most of their games feature outdated gameplay that is stuck in the PS1 or PS2 era.


This gen it has been the west that has pushed online, pushed graphics and pushed new gameplay experiences. Japan has mostly pushed copy followed by paste.


Demon/Dark Souls, Super Mario Galaxy, Ni No Kuni, Metal Gear Rising, Valkyria Chronicles, Donkey Kong Country Returns, Zelda TP and SS with their control, Mario Kart Wii, Bayonetta, Kid Icarus Uprising, Monster Hunter 3, MGS4, any Professor Layton, any Ace Attorney, Dissidia Final Fantasy,  just off the top of my head from this past gen.  None of those games are "stuck in the PS1 or PS2 era" and were pushing new gameplay experiences.


Demon/Dark Souls - Copied western RPGs style, trial and error is not good game design.
Mario Galaxy - Mario 64 clone.
Ni No Kuni - Masses of outdated JRPG elements.
Metal Gear Rising - It's utter crap and does nothing new that is good or worth mentioning.
Valkyria Chronicles -  Good game, but aside from the art style does little new in terms of turn based strategy gameplay.
Donkey Kong Country Returns -  Clone sequel of a western developed game, one from the 90s too.  Worst possible example for your argument. 
Zelda TP/SS - Clones of OoT.  One a last gen game delayed for a late port.  Motion controls are another subject, the actual games do nothing new.
Mario Kart Wii - Cloning the Mario Kart 64 Style.

etc etc.

You're not very good at giving examples of games that have pushed a genre forward with new ideas.  If anything you've reinforced my point that Japan relies on the old and clones too much instead of doing new and original things.

Really, the way you're rating these, what Western games are doing anything new or original if you don't include indie games?
You're bad at this.



pokoko said:

Fighting generalizations with more generalizations is meaningless. Sorry, but you're doing the same thing they are. I mean, most western games are 8 hours? I've put tons of hours into Fallout New Vegas, Torchlight 2, AudioSurf, and Borderlands 2 over the last six months. What about Elder Scrolls, Mass Effect, and Dragon Age?

These generalizations accomplish nothing. If you want to defend Japanese games, fine, but trying to do that by lumping all western games together serves no real purpose.


Truth ^^



KylieDog said:

Demon/Dark Souls - Copied western RPGs style, trial and error is not good game design.
Mario Galaxy - Mario 64 clone.
Ni No Kuni - Masses of outdated JRPG elements.
Metal Gear Rising - It's utter crap and does nothing new that is good or worth mentioning.
Valkyria Chronicles -  Good game, but aside from the art style does little new in terms of turn based strategy gameplay.
Donkey Kong Country Returns -  Clone sequel of a western developed game, one from the 90s too.  Worst possible example for your argument. 
Zelda TP/SS - Clones of OoT.  One a last gen game delayed for a late port.  Motion controls are another subject, the actual games do nothing new.
Mario Kart Wii - Cloning the Mario Kart 64 Style.

lmfao, what a joke. I've never heard so much bullshit in my life. Especially the bolded -- have you played Mario 64 lately? Not bad for 1996. Shit has nothing on Galaxy. Calling SS a clone of OoT is the most absurd thing I've heard about that game; it certainly has flaws, but being composed entirely of recycled ideas from 1998 is not one of them. And Metal Gear Rising... you lost me. I loved every second of that game. Yet I couldn't even force myself past the halfway point of Bioshock Infinite, supposedly the big runner-up for Game Of Der Year so far, even though it's an all-around generic and uninteresting game.



KylieDog said:


What does Skyward Sword really do new in terms of game design?  Nothing. 

Why compare MG Rising to Bioshock and not to something in it's own genre, like DmC which completely rebooted the story, universe, design and gameplay of its stale series.  You know, new stuff.

Because I didn't play DMC and I wanted to compare MGR, an actually fun, new, interesting game, to the critical darling that I had the "pleasure" of experiencing myself.

By the way, with respect to your previous post, I see you rated GTAIV a measley 4/10. Care to explain why that is, considering what a vast improvement its more open and fully-featured world was compared to the PS2 games? Also a note on that post, you should be aware that GTA is one of the best-selling franchises in the industry, and that Rockstar has enough buget to do whatever the hell they want, while studios like Atlus don't exactly have Final Fantasy-level budgets to throw around. So yeah, sometimes you get 2D sprites talking to each other instead of a MGS cutscene. Is that a problem?

What does Skyward Sword do new in terms of game design? Uh, it implements 1:1 motion controls to the adventure game structure, which completely changes everything about the way it is designed. You played it, right? Did you notice how you weren't pushing blocks onto switches, redirecting light with mirrors, and shooting arrows into eyeballs the entire time? Completely new set of tools, completely new set of experiences. How about how the stamina meter and shield durability affect combat? The brilliant Silent Realm sections? I'm sorry not every single thing about the game completely blew your mind with how it revolutionized the medium -- for instance, pushing up on the analogue stick still moves Link forward. Man, what lazy, uninspired design.

I'm not even here bashing Western games. I don't think Japanese or Western games are generally better or worse than the other just because they're made in a different part of the world by people who were raised in different cultures. I just think your mindless bashing of good games for no reason is ridiculously silly.