By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Nintendo - ZombiU Was "Not Even Close" to Profitable, No Plans for a Sequel

Zappykins said:
Sales are quite good for something with only a 3.2 million users.

In comparison at this time XBox 360 has sold about 5 million. I believe the Wii and the PS3 more, but can't find the numbers.

Thats missing the point. Yes, 560k sales on a 3.2 million user base is great, however that by itself doesn't mean anything for Ubisoft. All they care about is total units sold, and from what they've said, 560k wasn't enough to turn a profit. People saying that obviously Ubisoft should have used a smaller budget is ignoring the reality that no one expected the Wii U to sell this bad, not Ubisoft and certainly not Nintendo. You only have to look at the number of times Nintendo has revised the sales target down since launch. This game if like most games would have been in development for ~ 2 years before the Wii U was released. Could Ubisoft be expected to guess that the Wii U would sell as bad as it has (both 360 and PS3 never got anywhere near 22k/week sales even at their lowest points)? Again, I'd say no, particularly after the success of the Wii.

If 3rd party companies makes games that are profitable on 250k sales people complain that the Wii U gets half arsed games and shovelware, and if 3rd parties produce AA/AAA games that don't turn a profit then people complain that its the 3rd parties fault they can't balance their budgets. End of the day its an investment decision on their part, if the userbase is low then the risk is high that a high budget game will be unprofitable. If Nintendo wants those games on its platform then it needs to help 3rd parties offload some of that risk, either by helping fund the game or provide expertise to help reduce cost. It seems like Nintendo isn't doing either, their gameplan is for their 1st party games to create the userbase needed for the 3rd parties to flourish. The problem with that is that Nintendo has taken on all of the risk of the new platform, because if they have issues with getting their 1st party games out (which they appear to be having) then there is no plan B. You have a dying platform that can't sustain the game sales needed to encourage further game development. I'm not saying Nintendo is there yet, but it appears they are on their way. 



Around the Network
forethought14 said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:
460k for a niche game is excellent on a 3.2M user base! They should just have kept costs under control.

That's actually pretty good, but what I'd like to know is their supposed "low budget". What exactly is "low" to them? Because that sounds like a good amount of money from those games. 


Yes, maybe their ambition brought the biggest publishers to consider "low budget" funds that for talented, but more frugal publishers and devs would be enough to produce AAA titles, just look at The Witcher series.



Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly! (Pontius Pilate, "Life of Brian")
A fart without stink is like a sky without stars.
TGS, Third Grade Shooter: brand new genre invented by Kevin Butler exclusively for Natal WiiToo Kinect. PEW! PEW-PEW-PEW! 
 


coreyerb said:

Two random Nintendo mature-ish exclusives:

Perfect Dark (N64): 2.52 million / 32.93 million = 7.6 percent attach rate.
Mike Tyson's Punch-Out (NES): 3.02M / 61.91M = 4.9 percent

Now, how does that differ from random Xbox/PS exclusives?

God of War (PS3): average ~4.5M / 77.95M = 5.8 percent
Gears of War (X360): average ~6 M / 77.69M = 7.7 percent

Want a multi-platform?

Goldeneye (Wii): 1.76 M / 99.95M = 1.76 percent (better than Xbox360 - 410K / 77.69M = 0.53 percent, PS3 - 630K / 77.95M = 0.8 percent)

Just for fun, the hot new survival horror game against this flawed, unprofitable failure:

ZombiU: 460K / 3.19M = 14.4 percent
The Last of Us (PS3): 1.71 M / 77.95M = 2.2 percent; to reach ZombiU's equivalent attach rate, it'll have to sell an extra 9.5 million copies (more than that, since by the time it'd reach 14.4 percent, more PS3s will have sold). Precisely zero PS3 games not named Call of Duty have even made it to the 14.4 percent benchmark.

What am I missing? Are there piles and piles of failure mature games for Nintendo consoles that I'm forgetting?

First of all you need to shorten the quote trees in the future.

Then some of your examples are not valid.

Godeneye (Wii) was an exclusive game, that came to PS360 much later. It would have been disastrous if the Wii version sold less.

Your ZombiU vs. The Last of Us comparison doesn't make ANY sense. You say that TLOU needs to sell more to reach 14.4 percent, since the PS3 will sell more consoles, but you completely forget that WiiU will also sell more but ZombiU won't sell accordingly. At the end of the gen ZombiU's attach rate will be between 1% and 2%.
Hell at the end of the year it will already go down to ~7%.



outlawauron said:
Barozi said:
Busted said:
Slimebeast said:

It's easy to say in hindsight that the game wouldn't become a success.

But at the time everybody thought it would sell fairly well. 1-1.5 million was probably a reasonable target lifetime (some copies at discount) and upside was +2 million.

Probably it cost $20 million. All AAA games cost at least $20 million. That requires 1 million copies at full price to break even.

Agree with you but ZombiU is an AAA game? right...

and i don't think $20m comes close, any AAA costs at least three times that

That's not true at all.

$60m would be in the top ten of most expensive games.

Uncharted 1 and 2 are $20m each
Gears of War was $10m, Gears of War 2 was $12m
Crysis was $22m

Most AAA games should be around $30m.
BUT if it's a multiplat release, then it should definitely cost more. *doesn't want to know Watch Dogs' budget*

ZombiU could very well be at $15m. Even serious Wii games (serious = non-shovelware) approach $10m, so $15-20m is definitely a reasonable estimation.

Not to mention there are several PS1 and PS2 Final Fantasies that cost over 30-40 million to make.

Shenmue cost $40 million in development so the cost of tripleA games varies wildly. Gears really can't be used as good example in these circumstances as they don't account for Unreal Engine cost, all other development budget usually accounts for either licensing fees for engine or development of engine for the game.

I think $20m would be a bare minimum tbh.

Edit: There are exception, such as Frostbite being used inhouse for EA which is aimed at reducing development cost and stop it from blowing up even further...




coreyerb said:

Fun with numbers!: Killzone: Shadow Fall edition.

Launch exclusive for PS4, right? Okay, so Killzone 3 sold 2.48 million, let's say there were 40 million PS3s sold when it released in 2011 (offhand no idea how many of the 77.95 PS3s were sold at lower prices since 2011, it's just an estimate). You say KZ:SF will do better than it, so let's double its sales rate. Right, so 2.48M / 40M = 6.2 percent attach rate. All right, KZ:SF nails it, hits 12.4 percent attach rate during launch window.

In order to hit a million sold, even at an unreasonable 12.4 percent attach rate, PS4 will have to sell 8 million consoles. How long will it take to sell that many PS4s? Less than the eight months it took for Ubisoft's CEO to complain about ZombiU's sales? Maybe. What if it only sells as well as KZ3 (more likely)? 16 million consoles necessary to get it to a million, and that's assuming dev costs for PS4 don't raise the profitability benchmark.

That's my point, there are going to be a lot of third-party publishers complaining about not hitting their sales expectations for launch games if they're going to need to break a million sales to break even. Don't make an expensive launch game if you can't afford a loss as a down payment for future sequels.


Thats a valid point, and this is why 3rd parties releasing all of their fall games on almost all platforms. And the only true nextgen games are published by MS and Sony. Because they have to push those consoles because it is to risky for third paries to do. 



Around the Network

Zombie U looked like a cheaply made game even, but lord they must've spent more than I thought if it didnt sell well.



mibuokami said:
outlawauron said:
Barozi said:

That's not true at all.

$60m would be in the top ten of most expensive games.

Uncharted 1 and 2 are $20m each
Gears of War was $10m, Gears of War 2 was $12m
Crysis was $22m

Most AAA games should be around $30m.
BUT if it's a multiplat release, then it should definitely cost more. *doesn't want to know Watch Dogs' budget*

ZombiU could very well be at $15m. Even serious Wii games (serious = non-shovelware) approach $10m, so $15-20m is definitely a reasonable estimation.

Not to mention there are several PS1 and PS2 Final Fantasies that cost over 30-40 million to make.

Shenmue cost $40 million in development so the cost of tripleA games varies wildly. Gears really can't be used as good example in these circumstances as they don't account for Unreal Engine cost, all other development budget usually accounts for either licensing fees for engine or development of engine for the game.

I think $20m would be a bare minimum tbh.

Edit: There are exception, such as Frostbite being used inhouse for EA which is aimed at reducing development cost and stop it from blowing up even further...

Well Unreal Engine 3 wasn't created for Gears of War though. But sure feel free to add licensing costs for it. As I mentioned earlier we know how much Epic wants. about $1m.

You call Frostbite an exception, but in reality it's not the case that every game from one developer comes with a new engine. In fact many publishers share the engines from one of their devs with others. Therefore no engine development costs or licensing costs would apply.



Barozi said:
mibuokami said:
outlawauron said:
Barozi said:

That's not true at all.

$60m would be in the top ten of most expensive games.

Uncharted 1 and 2 are $20m each
Gears of War was $10m, Gears of War 2 was $12m
Crysis was $22m

Most AAA games should be around $30m.
BUT if it's a multiplat release, then it should definitely cost more. *doesn't want to know Watch Dogs' budget*

ZombiU could very well be at $15m. Even serious Wii games (serious = non-shovelware) approach $10m, so $15-20m is definitely a reasonable estimation.

Not to mention there are several PS1 and PS2 Final Fantasies that cost over 30-40 million to make.

Shenmue cost $40 million in development so the cost of tripleA games varies wildly. Gears really can't be used as good example in these circumstances as they don't account for Unreal Engine cost, all other development budget usually accounts for either licensing fees for engine or development of engine for the game.

I think $20m would be a bare minimum tbh.

Edit: There are exception, such as Frostbite being used inhouse for EA which is aimed at reducing development cost and stop it from blowing up even further...

Well Unreal Engine 3 wasn't created for Gears of War though. But sure feel free to add licensing costs for it. As I mentioned earlier we know how much Epic wants. about $1m.

You call Frostbite an exception, but in reality it's not the case that every game from one developer comes with a new engine. In fact many publishers share the engines from one of their devs with others. Therefore no engine development costs or licensing costs would apply.

Fair enough, the main point was that tripleA budget varies wildly even if the game itself may not look like it has a high production value.




The likely hood this is not beause of the game itself, but the installed base of the platform meant it just couldnt sell what was required to be profitable.



mibuokami said:
outlawauron said:
Barozi said:
That's not true at all.


$60m would be in the top ten of most expensive games.

Uncharted 1 and 2 are $20m each
Gears of War was $10m, Gears of War 2 was $12m
Crysis was $22m

Most AAA games should be around $30m.
BUT if it's a multiplat release, then it should definitely cost more. *doesn't want to know Watch Dogs' budget*

ZombiU could very well be at $15m. Even serious Wii games (serious = non-shovelware) approach $10m, so $15-20m is definitely a reasonable estimation.

Not to mention there are several PS1 and PS2 Final Fantasies that cost over 30-40 million to make.

Shenmue cost $40 million in development so the cost of tripleA games varies wildly. Gears really can't be used as good example in these circumstances as they don't account for Unreal Engine cost, all other development budget usually accounts for either licensing fees for engine or development of engine for the game.

I think $20m would be a bare minimum tbh.

Edit: There are exception, such as Frostbite being used inhouse for EA which is aimed at reducing development cost and stop it from blowing up even further...

Shenmue actually cost over $70 million.



"We'll toss the dice however they fall,
And snuggle the girls be they short or tall,
Then follow young Mat whenever he calls,
To dance with Jak o' the Shadows."

Check out MyAnimeList and my Game Collection. Owner of the 5 millionth post.