Kasz216 said: seiya19 said: Kasz216 said: Why should people feel bad about what happened to other peoples races and sexes.  It's called having empathy for people who aren't yourself. Well, I for one don't have empathy for races or genders, but for people. In fact, I specifically strive to judge people by who they are rather than by these labels, not only because of how meaningless they are for anything other than pointing some biological differences, but also because I know what happens when you give them too much importance. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter whether we're talking about sexism, racism, religious discrimination or class warfare, or which group is favored over another... It's all the same. It's all about power, and using any excuse to get it. It's about discriminating people through these labels, generating resentment that wouldn't exist otherwise. As long as people keep seeing things in terms of "teams" and keeping "score" of the offenses or gains, we'll never solve these issues. It's a never-ending, vicious circle. You can't solve discrimination with discrimination, just like you can't solve violence with violence. The only solution is to make these labels a non-issue. To not let them influence our judgement of these actions, as much as possible. And to let the past behind us by learning to not make the same mistakes, instead of making current generations carry the burden of those that came before them. And I still don't know what makes the opinions of those women who aren't offended by this any less valid than those who do... That's  kind of thinking has been tried before, and all it's led to is a rise in sexism, racism and antisemtism.  "Colorblind" policies that happen in uneven societies do nothing but maitnain the status quo and further That you actually think your above judging people by their race and gender is a completely asinine statement.   Everyone is a product of their culture.  Everyone is sexist and racist.  Those who think they are above it are nothing more then people in denial of their own subconsious sexism and racism.  I'd suggest trying to honestly take the above harvard test I liked. If you do take it honestly.  I imagine you'll be quite surprised.

Has it ? I don't know about that... As far as I know, most Western countries tend to follow the "positive discrimination" mentality to deal with these issues, and I have yet to see any evidence of it working. In fact, my country (Uruguay) currently follows that line of thinking through a left-wing party (one that I voted for and support), and yet I've seen how not only is not working, but it's also provoking negative responses. And it seems logical to me, as when you apply "positive" discrimination to a group of people, you're giving a reason for others to respond in an equal, opposing manner.

In addition, forcing people to act against their alledged prejudices doesn't work, as you're not changing their actual views, just repressing them. On the other hand, attacking the root of the problem and accepting everyone as equally valuable regardless of our differences is a notion most people can agree with. This can actually have an impact on people's minds, long term.

And I never claimed to be inmune to these prejudices... I know I'm not. I said that I strive to be, and that we shouldn't let these labels influence our judgment as much as possible. Discriminating in the opposite direction as some sort of calculated move to offset your supposed bias seems to bring just as much issues to me. How do you know that you are being "fair" here when you're not even trying to be ?

As far as that test goes, I doubt its any useful in my case, given how I'm not from the US or any of the other optional countries. I took a quick look at it and it seems to be culturally charged, which would give it just as much bias as the one we all apparently have... So, how would it be evidence of anything here ? To be honest, I generally frown upon this kind of tests because of how easy they're to manipulate, similar to how polls in general can be...

Maybe the game industry should stop lying to itself -- it is an immature industry that tailors primarily to 13-35 year old males.

So I don't see the big deal. Video games are never going to be like the Cannes film festival, they'll always be like a comic book expo.

The Spike video games awards are funded by sponsors like Doritos and Moutain Dew for a reason, lol, that's the demographic for a video game show.

So I don't really see the outrage. E3 should have more "booth babes" too. It's what the target demographic to these events wants.

Soundwave said: So I don't see the big deal. Video games are never going to be like the Cannes film festival, they'll always be like a comic book expo.

The funny thing is, this sort of stuff is so much more controversial in the gaming industry. Much, much worse happens in the film industry on a regular basis with little to nothing being said about it. It's just kind of accepted that big shot directors and hunky leading men are going to do what they've always done, which is to boink everything in sight. But if some neckbeard ogles a chick cosplaying as Lara Croft, you'd think it set women's rights back 200 years from the way political correctness/occasional video game blog Kotaku acts.

wfz said: Kasz216 said: No, but it does show why people pay a lot more attention to one then the other.  Which seems to be your complaint... which seems to be what your curious about. Outside that... plenty of people are born with conditions that make them fat.  (or lazy for that matter.) Like I said, what happened to you sucked.  It still doesn't compare though, it's not the context isn't quite there... it's that it's quite far from there.  What happened to these people in the past was very clear and very real dehumization right down to legally... built into society as a whole. What happened to you was someone picking on you just because you were different... it didn't even have to deal with an "ideal male bodytype" just more how you stood out at the time compared other people there.  Were you in say ireland, or there were a few more people with the same skin tone, they'd of gone and picked on the short kid. It sucks and i'm sure it could of sucked real hard... but it's not really the same  level as having the whole of society more or less structured to subconsiously hold you down because stereotypes about what you should be are programmed into everyones head subcounsiously... even best most tolerant person could be racist or sexist if they don't keep it in mind.  (Again, see harvard implicit results study.  Even Malcolm Gladwell, who is half black genetically, and identifies as black racially found that he ended up being unconsiously racist against black people.) To say it's not *quite* the same is an understatement. It's not like everyone in the world is subconsiously programmed to make fun of ginger people.   If that were the case, and everytime someone made fun of you for it... you would of been in a hell of a lot more pain, no?  That's certaintly a pretty big weight on your shoulders at that point.  I think it's pretty obvious to see why someone would be extra sensitive about this stuff and why you would focus a lot more on not offending those people, since there is much stronger weight there.    What Stereotypes even exist about someome being a "ginger".   The only thing that comes to mind is the South Park joke that they don't have souls.  (Legitamite question here... I'm actually curious.  Though that i have to ask is pretty telling in itself.) Whatever bro, keep speaking in a demeaning way towards my situation. It's cool. All I keep reiterating is that people should be discouraged from harrassing towards someone just because of how they were born. No matter what gender, race, or issue. You, on the other hand, only seem to care about the biggest issue (blacks and women) and don't care about the other issues. I understand the larger focus on those, but what you're displaying is an outright LACK of care for any of the other problems. What I keep seeing from you is "Blacks and women are the two biggest issues, nothing else matters for descrimination." A lot of issues exist outside of black and women descrimination, yet those are the only two you care about because they are the biggest? Like I said in a previous post, grow your mind, man. Start caring about the bigger picture. Descrimination like such on all levels is bad and should be discouraged throughout our society. Yes, women and black descrimination needs to end. But so does a lot of other stuff. But you don't seem to care about that at all because you constantly just keep focusing on those two issues. "It's not like everyone in the world is subconsiously programmed to make fun of ginger people.  " Holy crap, wait, what? People are subconsciously programmed to hate on blacks and women? That's news to me. (If that's not what you're implying, then I don't see how it fit in your post at all). As for descrimination against redheads, it primarily revolves around redheads being ugly, being white and unable to tan, and in general being freaks for their different natural hair color. I've gotten the soulless joke as well a number of times since that South Park episode, and even if it is baseless, it hurts when people say it and everyone laughs at you. Even if it's untrue.

Yes.  Scientifically speaking  most people are subconsiously programmed to hate black people and women...(also gay people)  most people know this, espiecally those predjudiced against.  

That's why I was trying to get you to take the IAT test.   Something like 70% of all people subconsiously are programmed to dislike black people.  Whie another 18% Fail to take the test quick enough to be considered taking it honest.    Even people like Malcolm Gladwell who see themelves as black as subconsiously biased against black people.   THAT is the level of difference there.

I'm not being demeaning.  I'm trying to explain the difference.

Also, i was talking about stereotypes.. which you said.. the whole "ugly" and being unable to tan thing isn't really a stereotype. 

seiya19 said: Kasz216 said: seiya19 said: Kasz216 said: Why should people feel bad about what happened to other peoples races and sexes.  It's called having empathy for people who aren't yourself. Well, I for one don't have empathy for races or genders, but for people. In fact, I specifically strive to judge people by who they are rather than by these labels, not only because of how meaningless they are for anything other than pointing some biological differences, but also because I know what happens when you give them too much importance. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter whether we're talking about sexism, racism, religious discrimination or class warfare, or which group is favored over another... It's all the same. It's all about power, and using any excuse to get it. It's about discriminating people through these labels, generating resentment that wouldn't exist otherwise. As long as people keep seeing things in terms of "teams" and keeping "score" of the offenses or gains, we'll never solve these issues. It's a never-ending, vicious circle. You can't solve discrimination with discrimination, just like you can't solve violence with violence. The only solution is to make these labels a non-issue. To not let them influence our judgement of these actions, as much as possible. And to let the past behind us by learning to not make the same mistakes, instead of making current generations carry the burden of those that came before them. And I still don't know what makes the opinions of those women who aren't offended by this any less valid than those who do... That's  kind of thinking has been tried before, and all it's led to is a rise in sexism, racism and antisemtism.  "Colorblind" policies that happen in uneven societies do nothing but maitnain the status quo and further That you actually think your above judging people by their race and gender is a completely asinine statement.   Everyone is a product of their culture.  Everyone is sexist and racist.  Those who think they are above it are nothing more then people in denial of their own subconsious sexism and racism.  I'd suggest trying to honestly take the above harvard test I liked. If you do take it honestly.  I imagine you'll be quite surprised. Has it ? I don't know about that... As far as I know, most Western countries tend to follow the "positive discrimination" mentality to deal with these issues, and I have yet to see any evidence of it working. In fact, my country (Uruguay) currently follows that line of thinking through a left-wing party (one that I voted for and support), and yet I've seen how not only is not working, but it's also provoking negative responses. And it seems logical to me, as when you apply "positive" discrimination to a group of people, you're giving a reason for others to respond in an equal, opposing manner. In addition, forcing people to act against their alledged prejudices doesn't work, as you're not changing their actual views, just repressing them. On the other hand, attacking the root of the problem and accepting everyone as equally valuable regardless of our differences is a notion most people can agree with. This can actually have an impact on people's minds, long term. And I never claimed to be inmune to these prejudices... I know I'm not. I said that I strive to be, and that we shouldn't let these labels influence our judgment as much as possible. Discriminating in the opposite direction as some sort of calculated move to offset your supposed bias seems to bring just as much issues to me. How do you know that you are being "fair" here when you're not even trying to be ? As far as that test goes, I doubt its any useful in my case, given how I'm not from the US or any of the other optional countries. I took a quick look at it and it seems to be culturally charged, which would give it just as much bias as the one we all apparently have... So, how would it be evidence of anything here ? To be honest, I generally frown upon this kind of tests because of how easy they're to manipulate, similar to how polls in general can be...

Except you know.  You aren't.

Consious thought is no longer the cause of racism.  Most people are subconsiously disposed to negativly assosiate things with black people and women. 

Even the most liberal of people who consiously really want to not be sexist.  Hence the point of the Harvard test I keep posting links to.

Pretending race and sex don't exist just means you tend to make a much of sexist and racist choices uncounsiously that you never challenge... because at best you think... "I'm not a racist!"

Hence the only way to stop Racism and Sexism is to pay a lot of attention to it and to know that subcounsiously you are going to be making some racist and sexist choices without even realizing it.

kain_kusanagi said: Here we go again. Anytime someone is offended we get an earful from those who say it's not. If someone is offended than it is offensive. Girls on a stage in sexy outfits doing sexy dancing. Yeah I'm sure the professional woman of GDC just loved it. Come on guys. GDC is conference for game developer professionals. I'm all for a fun party, but is it really professional to hire dancing girls when woman have been fighting for respect in the gaming industry for decades? You don't have to be offended for someone to be offensive to someone else. I'm not offended by the girls. I love sexy dancing girls. But it's not a bachelor party, it's and industry event. I'd also like to point out that the whole "anything goes" and "stop being sensitive" attitude is a little inconsiderate.

Kantor said: kain_kusanagi said: Here we go again. Anytime someone is offended we get an earful from those who say it's not. If someone is offended than it is offensive. Girls on a stage in sexy outfits doing sexy dancing. Yeah I'm sure the professional woman of GDC just loved it. Come on guys. GDC is conference for game developer professionals. I'm all for a fun party, but is it really professional to hire dancing girls when woman have been fighting for respect in the gaming industry for decades? You don't have to be offended for someone to be offensive to someone else. I'm not offended by the girls. I love sexy dancing girls. But it's not a bachelor party, it's and industry event. I'd also like to point out that the whole "anything goes" and "stop being sensitive" attitude is a little inconsiderate.

Good post.  And I just hve to laugh at Kasz previous post(s).  The vast majority of people are pretty much hard wired to hate black people and women?  That's just the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard in my life.  And I've heard some whoppers, before. 

I guess it could be seen as the girls are objects for male nerds to ogle....

and what the hell has that got to do with video games?

thismeintiel said: Kantor said: kain_kusanagi said: Here we go again. Anytime someone is offended we get an earful from those who say it's not. If someone is offended than it is offensive. Girls on a stage in sexy outfits doing sexy dancing. Yeah I'm sure the professional woman of GDC just loved it. Come on guys. GDC is conference for game developer professionals. I'm all for a fun party, but is it really professional to hire dancing girls when woman have been fighting for respect in the gaming industry for decades? You don't have to be offended for someone to be offensive to someone else. I'm not offended by the girls. I love sexy dancing girls. But it's not a bachelor party, it's and industry event. I'd also like to point out that the whole "anything goes" and "stop being sensitive" attitude is a little inconsiderate. Good post.  ...

No, it's not. It's tangential at best, if not a plain strawman.

In this thread as well as in the writings of the involved people it's quite clear how this was inappropriate and who felt offended. There were no grand generic claims of something being "offensive for anyone".

On the contrary, there are specifics about the gender issues in the industry, how they were addressed in panels and interviews (by the IGDA representative!) at GDC and how stupid and incongruous it was to resort to boy club shenanigans the very same day.

Politically correctness can be a drag when it stifles a serene discussion between disagreeing but ultimately fairly balanced parties. When one party is objectively oppressed by a hostile environment and fighting to raise to equality, not giving a damn about how they feel is not championing free speech. It's being jerks.

WereKitten said: No, it's not. It's tangential at best, if not a plain strawman. In this thread as well as in the writings of the involved people it's quite clear how this was inappropriate and who felt offended. There were no grand generic claims of something being "offensive for anyone". On the contrary, there are specifics about the gender issues in the industry, how they were addressed in panels and interviews (by the IGDA representative!) at GDC and how stupid and incongruous it was to resort to boy club shenanigans the very same day. Politically correctness can be a drag when it stifles a serene discussion between disagreeing but ultimately fairly balanced parties. When one party is objectively oppressed by a hostile environment and fighting to raise to equality, not giving a damn about how they feel is not championing free speech. It's being jerks.

The women are described as "scantily clad" when they were nothing of the sort, and these "inappropriate activities" appear to be just dancing.

So when a woman does anything you deem to be inappropriate, wearing something you deem to be classified as "scantily clad", of her own volition and free will, you personally find that offensive?

This is something I really don't understand about modern feminism. How can you simultaneously say that women should be free to do as they wish without anyone telling them what to do, and in the same breath tell them what to do under the rather transparent disguise of saying "oh, they don't really want to do it, society is making them."

So instead of being conditioned by society and having some free will in the matter, you should tell them how they are allowed to behave and blame other people when they decide to do something you disapprove of.