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Forums - General Discussion - So.. Scantily Clad Women at the IGDA Party Made The Industry Freak Out.. Sexism Again?

WereKitten said:
allblue said:

That is what this whole thing is if everyone would just straight up be honest

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/9401/hootersprotest.jpg

 


You can put your head in the sand and perpetuate sexist stereotypes, or you can read a bit and maybe, just maybe contribute with an educated opinion to the discussion.

I'm sorry, the general idea is that, if anyone remotely capable of using their brain can't differentiate between what is cosplay/ media portrayal of women with how common sense would tell you to treat fellow female workers at a work place, then the females should take it to that said person, not protest against or infringe other people's right to freely express themself. Any preferential treatment/concern towards anyone based on gender is sexism, positive or not. Did someone harass you at work? Take it to the court, find your solution with that person, don't protest the media.

Your posts have elements of truth in them, however, feminist movement isn't restricted to just gaming industry, and in general the movement itself trumps on other individuals' freedom of expression and that's when it crosses the line. Unfortunately, that holds true for the Majority of the feminist movement.

Edit: The ridiculous idea is that if a guy pays a girl to dress up pretty, it is associated with sexism. What about the right of those women, who likes to scantily clad themselves at videogame/cosplay events? What about their rights to freely express themselves? 



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Only sexism activists would on the one hand call such outfits "summer dresses we have every right to wear", and on the other (when attached to another industry) call it sexism.



allblue said:
WereKitten said:
allblue said:

That is what this whole thing is if everyone would just straight up be honest

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/9401/hootersprotest.jpg

 


You can put your head in the sand and perpetuate sexist stereotypes, or you can read a bit and maybe, just maybe contribute with an educated opinion to the discussion.

I'm sorry, the general idea is that, if anyone remotely capable of using their brain can't differentiate between what is cosplay/ media portrayal of women with how common sense would tell you to treat fellow female workers at a work place, then the females should take it to that said person, not protest against or infringe other people's right to freely express themself. Any preferential treatment/concern towards anyone based on gender is sexism, positive or not. Did someone harass you at work? Take it to the court, find your solution with that person, don't protest the media.

Your posts have elements of truth in them, however, feminist movement isn't restricted to just gaming industry, and in general the movement itself trumps on other individuals' freedom of expression and that's when it crosses the line. Unfortunately, that holds true for the Majority of the feminist movement.

Edit: The ridiculous idea is that if a guy pays a girl to dress up pretty, its associated with sexism. What about the right of those women, who likes to scantily clad themselves at videogame/cosplay events? What about their rights to freely express themselves? 

Women getting harassed at work due to sexualization of women in the media has just as much correlation as gun violence and violence in video games. 



Intel core i7 930 OC @ 4.0 ghz

XFX Double dissipation Radeon HD 7950 356 bit 3gb GDDR5 OC @ 1150 MHz core + 1575 x 4 memory

Triple channel DDR 3 12gb RAM 1600 MHz

allblue said:
 

I'm sorry, the general idea is that, if anyone remotely capable of using their brain can't differentiate between what is cosplay/ media portrayal of women with how common sense would tell you to treat fellow female workers at a work place, then the females should take it to that said person, not protest against or infringe other people's right to freely express themself. Any preferential treatment/concern towards anyone based on gender is sexism, positive or not. Did someone harass you at work? Take it to the court, find your solution with that person, don't protest the media.

Your posts have elements of truth in them, however, feminist movement isn't restricted to just gaming industry, and in general the movement itself trumps on other individuals' freedom of expression and that's when it crosses the line. Unfortunately, that holds true for the Majority of the feminist movement.

Edit: The ridiculous idea is that if a guy pays a girl to dress up pretty, it is associated with sexism. What about the right of those women, who likes to scantily clad themselves at videogame/cosplay events? What about their rights to freely express themselves? 

Did you read what I linked? The author in the first link - a young woman working at Crystal Dynamics - actually stepped in to help a group of Lara cosplayers in an embarrassing situation at PAX, she has nothing but good words for them and she got thanked profusely.

Let's stick to the point: there is no freedom of expression at risk with the IGDA event. This is not a case of ugly, jealous, hairy-legged, bespectacled feminists being hostile towards more attractive women who, casually attending a party, sported some risque attires and had all the eyes for themselves. That's the trope you seem to like to indulge in, and even post images about.

The models there were because they were paid to be there and they were dressed like that because they were paid to and they were available to go dance on stage because they were paid to. As such the message did not came from an individual girl attending the party among coworkers in the game developing field.

No one went: "I like to have fun at parties, so I came in a furry bikini", to which a friendly response could have been "Ok... but isn't it inappropriate in this context? I mean, tt's still meant for socializing between colleagues and do some relaxed shop talk...". That would have been a small problem of personal, free expression.

No, here the shots where called by (and the money handed from) the sponsor. And the message was: "for this company, the way to have a better work party of game developers is to have attractive girls in skimpy outfits that dance on stage at a command". That's not really expressing much, but certainly carries implicit disdain for the women among those developers. Women who, as by those links, already have to put up with enough attitude in the workplace and are scared to talk about it because the whole environment is hostile.

Freedom of speech and expression - in this case of the most crass, commercial type - does not make you any less responsible for what you choose to communicate.



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"..." - Gordon Freeman

WereKitten said:
No, here the shots where called by (and the money handed from) the sponsor. And the message was: "for this company, the way to have a better work party of game developers is to have attractive girls in skimpy outfits that dance on stage at a command". That's not really expressing much, but certainly carries implicit disdain for the women among those developers. Women who, as by those links, already have to put up with enough attitude in the workplace and are scared to talk about it because the whole environment is hostile.

Freedom of speech and expression - in this case of the most crass, commercial type - does not make you any less responsible for what you choose to communicate.

I fully acknowledge what you meant, what I'm trying to debate is whether the protest might have been, as you've described, "punching at the ghosts"? Sure there are issues for females working in the industry, and from what i've gathered they are issues of respect. However, isn't it sort of pointless doing what they did? What message were they trying to get across by protesting? Weren't they implying that an average male in the industry isn't sensible enough to differentiate between a paid dancer and a fellow female worker? 

To that point, I would actually like to stress that respect and equality are earned, not given by someone after persistent pastering. If you want respect, earn it, take the fight to the person who is disrespecting YOU, directly. I for one fail to see a true equality in a world where the equality comes from gender based positive discrimination in the fear of being accused of sexism because it would essentially defeat the purpose it. If you are getting harassed at work, surely then the problem lies with that person who is harassing you, not some paid dancers with debatably "scantily clad" attire at a public event. Like I've said in my post before, no adult of working age would have such an infantile outlook towards an opposite sex that they would see those dancers on stage, turn to their female co worker and expect them to strip, get on stage and start dancing. 

The problem with equality is that it is almost akin to fear-mongering, you are constantly have to be mindful about an opposite sex even though you have no intention of being sexist remotely in anyway whatsoever. If you want someone to treat you as an equal, then earn the right to be treated as an equal. Earn the respect, be a leader, a NATURAL leader, don't play the gender card. If you are naturally as capable as your opposite sex, then it wouldn't be such a hard fought battle. A wealthy successful man isn't likely to call a random homeless on the street his equal any time of the day unless the said homeless proves himself. 



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WereKitten said:

You can put your head in the sand and perpetuate sexist stereotypes, or you can read a bit and maybe, just maybe contribute with an educated opinion to the discussion.

My opinion doesn't reflect yours but that doesn't make it any less "educated". I for one simply choose to uphold my opinion and refrain from turning it into a personal attack. 



Intel core i7 930 OC @ 4.0 ghz

XFX Double dissipation Radeon HD 7950 356 bit 3gb GDDR5 OC @ 1150 MHz core + 1575 x 4 memory

Triple channel DDR 3 12gb RAM 1600 MHz

allblue said:
WereKitten said:
No, here the shots where called by (and the money handed from) the sponsor. And the message was: "for this company, the way to have a better work party of game developers is to have attractive girls in skimpy outfits that dance on stage at a command". That's not really expressing much, but certainly carries implicit disdain for the women among those developers. Women who, as by those links, already have to put up with enough attitude in the workplace and are scared to talk about it because the whole environment is hostile.

Freedom of speech and expression - in this case of the most crass, commercial type - does not make you any less responsible for what you choose to communicate.

I fully acknowledge what you meant, what I'm trying to debate is whether the protest might have been, as you've described, "punching at the ghosts"? Sure there are issues for females working in the industry, and from what i've gathered they are issues of respect. However, isn't it sort of pointless doing what they did? What message were they trying to get across by protesting? Weren't they implying that an average male in the industry isn't sensible enough to differentiate between a paid dancer and a fellow female worker? 

To that point, I would actually like to stress that respect and equality are earned, not given by someone after persistent pastering. If you want respect, earn it, take the fight to the person who is disrespecting YOU, directly. I for one fail to see a true equality in a world where the equality comes from gender based positive discrimination in the fear of being accused of sexism because it would essentially defeat the purpose it. If you are getting harassed at work, surely then the problem lies with that person who is harassing you, not some paid dancers with debatably "scantily clad" attire at a public event. Like I've said in my post before, no adult of working age would have such an infantile outlook towards an opposite sex that they would see those dancers on stage, turn to their female co worker and expect them to strip, get on stage and start dancing. 

The problem with equality is that it is almost akin to fear-mongering, you are constantly have to be mindful about an opposite sex even though you have no intention of being sexist remotely in anyway whatsoever. If you want someone to treat you as an equal, then earn the right to be treated as an equal. Earn the respect, be a leader, a NATURAL leader, don't play the gender card. If you are naturally as capable as your opposite sex, then it wouldn't be such a hard fought battle. A wealthy successful man isn't likely to call a random homeless on the street his equal any time of the day unless the said homeless proves himself. 


allblue, it sounds like you haven't had to cope with that type of bullying or discrimation to that level. Which is fine, it is how you get your perspective. However, what you say to do as a coping mechanism to gain equality by those methods of 'earning respect' would only work in an ideal setting, but it doesn't always work in the real world... unfortunately.



I'm probably missing something here, but i couldn't care less what men do, what the general view of women is, and the difficulty they have in the workplace, despite experiencing it myself, moaning about it and stamping your feet isn't going to solve it, it'll just make mens attitudes towards women even worse.

Look at it this way, when you were a kid and got told off for something, was your instant reaction to carry on doing it, even more so?, sure some kids learn their lessons but others feel the need to react to it and affirm their dominance.

Besides, the way feminist groups attack the issue is FAR too general, and often points it's finger at large groups rather than individuals, and that's just stupid.

 

Oh, and the guys? (especially article authors for gaming sites) that side with femnists?, they do it for the positive attention they get from women and feminist groups, when you see those guys stood protesting for womens rights with a bunch of other women?, chances are theyre there thinking they might pull for being understanding, or are there because they're scared of being dumped for being a sexist ass by their extremist girlfriends, just saying.



Sorry if the thread was already dead, but just read through some of it and don't think anyone came across this:

The models were just there to dance along with the music to get people into it. The reason they were all girls? It's a party, they want you to let loose, and it's hard for guys to want to dance when there aren't any girls (GDC being male dominated). Kinda evens out the sexes.

They're not even necessarily there for sex appeal. It's just a cultural thing to want to dance with/along the opposite sex.
e.g. A son dancing with his mom, but not his dad.