Forums - Microsoft Discussion - 360 can be the rpg console of 2008

Kasz216 said:
ArtznCraphs said:
Newsflash! WRPGs ARE the traditional RPGs. It doesn't get more traditional than Ultima, Wizardy, Baldur's Gate, Might and Magic, etc. Ultima and Wizardry were doing turn based combat before any JRPG. Dragon Warrior was directly influenced by such games.

Kasz216, how can WRPGs usually be like Oblivion when there is a whole history of games before that? I would say they are usually not like Oblivion or Morrowind.

Plus WRPGs usually adhere closer to pen and paper RPGs which were around before the video games.


Because before they were called JRPS and WRGS they were called RPGS and ARPGS.

This new JRPG and WRPG bs just started up when games like Morrowind became popular and generally are used to replace the old RPG and ARPG tags.

Also the best Ultima game in my book is really more of an SRPG.   Ultima Exodus.

 


 

Hmm. Well I've always made the distinction between JRPG and WRPG as far as categorization goes, but it's basically all the same basic genre to me.  As long as numerical stats and calculations determine the bulk of the gameplay, it's an RPG to me

Around the Network

A few notes from me, in my opinion:

Why is the JRPG market decreasing? It's too stale. Ever look at the "amazing variation" in RPGs from Japan lately? Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, and the other 5-10 series share too much in common. Because of the lack of evolution of the genre. Even though I love JRPGs, lets face it: the difference between Final Fantasy 5 and Final Fantasy 10 were graphical updates, and very little else. The same can be said from Dragon Quest 3 to Dragon Quest 8. The Japanese-style game is just too much the same for those outside the hardcore JRPG niche to really enjoy alot.

The WRPG market is vastly different - it's spearheaded by a plethora of incredibly varied titles over the years: Fallout. Ultima. Elder Scrolls. Baldurs Gate. Betrayl at. and recent hit new IPs such as Planetscape Torment, Mass Effect, Knights of the Old Republic, and others that are insanely good, and vary much stronger over the years.

All of this is spearheaded by the most popular RPG to date (not FFVII) - World of Warcraft. And guess what? It's not just fat nerdy Americans playing WoW. It's fat, nerdy Chinese, Koreans and Europeans too!

The RPG market is changing, and faring much stronger toward the much-improved Western style of RPG gaming. It's more diverse, even if it is more action-oriented. The style of RPGs has evolved strongly from the dice-rolling D&D style RPG, and gathered many other styles into what is a Western RPG, kind of like the ball from Katamari Damacy.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

mrstickball

That pretty much sums up the situation.  The limited scope of JRPGs isn't helping the genre's cause.  Gamers are demanding more interactivity, control, fruitful exploration and customization/options in their games, and this is seen across the genre board.  Pressing X to ATTACK or ITEM as the primary and practically sole interaction with the game world doesn't cut it anymore.  As for turn based combat, even that's  handled better in Japanese tactical RPGs than in 'regular' JRPGs, with stories to match (I would even say FFT has much better writing than the series proper)



After seeing much nonsense, like :
- a MMORPG on PC compared to JRPG on console for popularity, in a thread about consoles RPG
- people that try to say rhetorically which of WRPG or JRPG is the traditional RPG like it's a pissing contest or like it would make a difference
- people trying to make an argument that JRPG aren't RPG, which won't achieve anything either
- people that say XB360 JRPG didn't fail in Japan and worldwide (really these people must be desperate)
- people trying to say that japanese SRPG are not JRPG, or even RPG, and people trying to say that games made by non-japanese or outside Japan can be JRPG.
- basically, people that try to make excuses for the failure of XB360 JRPG, then as it doesn't work, try to say the XB360 will have the most JRPG this year (mixing it in a global RPG moniker, so that we don't notice), then as it doesn't work, try to downplay JRPG as much as they can, then as it doesn't work, try to make WRPG appear like heaven for "true" RPG fans


After seeing all that and having a good laugh, I'll just add to the ambient nonsense and defense forces that are out in full force (especially the XB360 and WRPG ones) by stating my opinion of JRPG fan since years :
- My hunch that the Wii would become the JRPG king before the middle of this year will probably come true, and that it will be the JRPG king this gen seems a given. There's already too many JRPG for me to play them all this gen anyway, the fact that 'ive still to finish those from last gen notwithstanding.
- I'll pray, like I've done since Ogre Battle, that my beloved japanese SRPG go on coming regularly (the current pace is enough for me). Some people really didn't know this was a small niche ? SRPG are even more niche than JRPG.
- JRPG fans are pretty knowledgeable, as they have to be. Even in Japan I think. To think that you need at least some understanding of japanese to enjoy a lot of JRPG that are never released out of Japan should be a hint. I mean, there's no point in trying to BS a JRPG fan as to what is better for him. I will never for the life of me buy a WRPG again, I've still has not finished BGII and its extension (that I bought at launch, years ago) or the NWN 2 last main campaigns. Some people try to convince JRPG lovers that WRPG are better, which is nonsense, as it's a matter of opinion. I know WRPG pretty well, they bore me to no end. I've also played true RPG (pen & paper) for years (Call of Chthulu, Toons, D&D, AD&D, AD&D 2, Star Wars, ...), and I find the same feelings in JRPG, despite what people say. Unlike in WRPG were I find only the stat part, and the worst and most boring part of RPG ever : grosbillism. Strangely enough, I don't feel grosbillism in JRPG, even when grinding.

Still, enjoy the RPG you like on the console you like. But don't think that because you believe the XB360 will be the "RPG console" in 2008, JRPG lovers will flock to it. JRPG lovers doesn't mean Toriyama lover BTW, far from it.



mrstickball said:
A few notes from me, in my opinion:

Why is the JRPG market decreasing? It's too stale. Ever look at the "amazing variation" in RPGs from Japan lately? Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, and the other 5-10 series share too much in common. Because of the lack of evolution of the genre. Even though I love JRPGs, lets face it: the difference between Final Fantasy 5 and Final Fantasy 10 were graphical updates, and very little else. The same can be said from Dragon Quest 3 to Dragon Quest 8. The Japanese-style game is just too much the same for those outside the hardcore JRPG niche to really enjoy alot.

The WRPG market is vastly different - it's spearheaded by a plethora of incredibly varied titles over the years: Fallout. Ultima. Elder Scrolls. Baldurs Gate. Betrayl at. and recent hit new IPs such as Planetscape Torment, Mass Effect, Knights of the Old Republic, and others that are insanely good, and vary much stronger over the years.

All of this is spearheaded by the most popular RPG to date (not FFVII) - World of Warcraft. And guess what? It's not just fat nerdy Americans playing WoW. It's fat, nerdy Chinese, Koreans and Europeans too!

The RPG market is changing, and faring much stronger toward the much-improved Western style of RPG gaming. It's more diverse, even if it is more action-oriented. The style of RPGs has evolved strongly from the dice-rolling D&D style RPG, and gathered many other styles into what is a Western RPG, kind of like the ball from Katamari Damacy.


You clearly don't play Final Fantasy, and the fact that you had never touched a JRPG until this gen is showing itself clearly stickball.

First, most Final Fantasy games are completely different. VI to VII was a jump from fantasy to steampunk, and XIII is jumping into sci-fi. Personally I consider this a bad thing, but moving on from that... they are hardly all alike. There are JRPGs accross just as many settings and styles as WRPGs. Look at Fragile for Wii. It's a post-apocolyptic empty world JRPG set in the future. Or horror RPGs about freaking suicide like the Persona series. Or how about Kingdom Hearts in the worlds of Disney.

And claiming diversity in Western RPGs is a joke. I love a lot of Western RPGs, but the style is painfully unchanging. Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, Diablo 1 and 2, Neverwinter Nights, Morrowind, Fable 1 and 2, and Oblivion all remake the same tired as hell medieval setting with little to no variety in artistic design. The only change to this was KOTOR, and what do ya know, they rip that off with Mass Effect. The few exceptions to the "All we can make is medieval settings" rule are games like Dues Ex and Too Human, which are only loosely even related to RPGs, and largely unappreciated by people who prefer to play repetitive crap like Oblivion.

PS: Not saying I dislike WRPGS (other than Bethesda games, which I hate), but they are certainly lacking in variety.  



Around the Network
naznatips said:
mrstickball said:
A few notes from me, in my opinion:

Why is the JRPG market decreasing? It's too stale. Ever look at the "amazing variation" in RPGs from Japan lately? Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, and the other 5-10 series share too much in common. Because of the lack of evolution of the genre. Even though I love JRPGs, lets face it: the difference between Final Fantasy 5 and Final Fantasy 10 were graphical updates, and very little else. The same can be said from Dragon Quest 3 to Dragon Quest 8. The Japanese-style game is just too much the same for those outside the hardcore JRPG niche to really enjoy alot.

The WRPG market is vastly different - it's spearheaded by a plethora of incredibly varied titles over the years: Fallout. Ultima. Elder Scrolls. Baldurs Gate. Betrayl at. and recent hit new IPs such as Planetscape Torment, Mass Effect, Knights of the Old Republic, and others that are insanely good, and vary much stronger over the years.

All of this is spearheaded by the most popular RPG to date (not FFVII) - World of Warcraft. And guess what? It's not just fat nerdy Americans playing WoW. It's fat, nerdy Chinese, Koreans and Europeans too!

The RPG market is changing, and faring much stronger toward the much-improved Western style of RPG gaming. It's more diverse, even if it is more action-oriented. The style of RPGs has evolved strongly from the dice-rolling D&D style RPG, and gathered many other styles into what is a Western RPG, kind of like the ball from Katamari Damacy.


You clearly don't play Final Fantasy, and the fact that you had never touched a JRPG until this gen is showing itself clearly stickball.

First, most Final Fantasy games are completely different. VI to VII was a jump from fantasy to steampunk, and XIII is jumping into sci-fi. Personally I consider this a bad thing, but moving on from that... they are hardly all alike. There are JRPGs accross just as many settings and styles as WRPGs. Look at Fragile for Wii. It's a post-apocolyptic empty world JRPG set in the future. Or horror RPGs about freaking suicide like the Persona series. Or how about Kingdom Hearts in the worlds of Disney.

And claiming diversity in Western RPGs is a joke. I love a lot of Western RPGs, but the style is painfully unchanging. Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, Diablo 1 and 2, Neverwinter Nights, Morrowind, Fable 1 and 2, and Oblivion all remake the same tired as hell medieval setting with little to no variety in artistic design. The only change to this was KOTOR, and what do ya know, they rip that off with Mass Effect. The few exceptions to the "All we can make is medieval settings" rule are games like Dues Ex and Too Human, which are only loosely even related to RPGs, and largely unappreciated by people who prefer to play repetitive crap like Oblivion.

PS: Not saying I dislike WRPGS (other than Bethesda games, which I hate), but they are certainly lacking in variety.


 I think he is referring to the gameplay which painfully hasn't changed as much as people would want it to.  For example:go to towns,go to dungeons and battle monsters, beat boss, rinse and repeat.  There is also the matter of lengthy cutscenes which non-RPG fans absolutely hate



naznatips said:
mrstickball said:
A few notes from me, in my opinion:

Why is the JRPG market decreasing? It's too stale. Ever look at the "amazing variation" in RPGs from Japan lately? Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, and the other 5-10 series share too much in common. Because of the lack of evolution of the genre. Even though I love JRPGs, lets face it: the difference between Final Fantasy 5 and Final Fantasy 10 were graphical updates, and very little else. The same can be said from Dragon Quest 3 to Dragon Quest 8. The Japanese-style game is just too much the same for those outside the hardcore JRPG niche to really enjoy alot.

The WRPG market is vastly different - it's spearheaded by a plethora of incredibly varied titles over the years: Fallout. Ultima. Elder Scrolls. Baldurs Gate. Betrayl at. and recent hit new IPs such as Planetscape Torment, Mass Effect, Knights of the Old Republic, and others that are insanely good, and vary much stronger over the years.

All of this is spearheaded by the most popular RPG to date (not FFVII) - World of Warcraft. And guess what? It's not just fat nerdy Americans playing WoW. It's fat, nerdy Chinese, Koreans and Europeans too!

The RPG market is changing, and faring much stronger toward the much-improved Western style of RPG gaming. It's more diverse, even if it is more action-oriented. The style of RPGs has evolved strongly from the dice-rolling D&D style RPG, and gathered many other styles into what is a Western RPG, kind of like the ball from Katamari Damacy.


You clearly don't play Final Fantasy, and the fact that you had never touched a JRPG until this gen is showing itself clearly stickball.

First, most Final Fantasy games are completely different. VI to VII was a jump from fantasy to steampunk, and XIII is jumping into sci-fi. Personally I consider this a bad thing, but moving on from that... they are hardly all alike. There are JRPGs accross just as many settings and styles as WRPGs. Look at Fragile for Wii. It's a post-apocolyptic empty world JRPG set in the future. Or horror RPGs about freaking suicide like the Persona series. Or how about Kingdom Hearts in the worlds of Disney.

And claiming diversity in Western RPGs is a joke. I love a lot of Western RPGs, but the style is painfully unchanging. Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, Diablo 1 and 2, Neverwinter Nights, Morrowind, Fable 1 and 2, and Oblivion all remake the same tired as hell medieval setting with little to no variety in artistic design. The only change to this was KOTOR, and what do ya know, they rip that off with Mass Effect. The few exceptions to the "All we can make is medieval settings" rule are games like Dues Ex and Too Human, which are only loosely even related to RPGs, and largely unappreciated by people who prefer to play repetitive crap like Oblivion.


Final Fantasy games are different in terms of setting, not much in gameplay or interaction.  It's go into battle screen, order off a menu.  Scant NPC interaction, no choice of going for or against a particular action, no thief skills usable outside of combat, no pre emptive attacks.  Same as Dragon Quest.  Same damn thing since Dragon Warrior and Phantasy Star.  And tactics games do that type of thing better anyways. FF12 was a step forward in some ways, but it's poo-pooed by the supposed fanbase on the internet, even though every adult JRPG fan I know of in the real world thinks it's the best thing to happen to the series in a long time.  Why should the genre even progress when it's fanbase wants FF7 everytime.

 And if you're going to include Kingdom Hearts, you might as well include Deus Ex.  In Deus Ex your performance and options and even the story itself are effected by numbers and character interactions  to a FAR greater degree than Kingdom Hearts, or any SquareEnix game for that matter.  Not to mention it's infinitely more immersive than any of the so called traditional RPGs on either side.

 But I do agree that WRPGs need a serious injection of art and style.



Riachu said:

I think he is referring to the gameplay which painfully hasn't changed as much as people would want it to. For example:go to towns,go to dungeons and battle monsters, beat boss, rinse and repeat. There is also the matter of lengthy cutscenes which non-RPG fans absolutely hate


Gameplay is an even worse argument... JRPGs have gameplay ranging from turn based, to grid based, to card based, to plain old zelda style hack-and-slash action.  Some have dungeons, some don't.  Some are turn based, some aren't.  There is tons of variety in all facets of JRPGs... variety is simply not an issue. 



ArtznCraphs said:

Final Fantasy games are different in terms of setting, not in gameplay or interaction. It's go into battle screen, order off a menu. Scant NPC interaction, no choice of going for or against a particular action, no thief skills usable outside of combat, no pre emptive attacks. Same as Dragon Quest. Same damn thing since Dragon Warrior and Phantasy Star. FF12 was a step forward in some ways, but it's poo-pooed by the supposed fanbase on the internet, even though every adult JRPG fan I know of in the real world thinks it's the best thing to happen to the series in a long time. Why should the genre even progress when it's fanbase wants FF7 everytime.

And if you're going to include Kingdom Hearts, you might as well include Deus Ex. In Deus Ex your performance and options and even the story itself are effected by numbers and character interactions to a FAR greater degree than Kingdom Hearts, or any SquareEnix game for that matter. Not to mention it's infinitely more immersive than any of the so called traditional RPGs on either side.

But I do agree that WRPGs need a serious injection of art and style.



Very few FF games share an identical combat system. While it's true they share a similar combat system, you are comparing within series. Many FF games let you completely customize the class of your character, and don't limit you to the pre-defined classes people seem to think they do.

FFXII is panned by fans because it's ridiculously easy (I rarely even picked up the controller in battle), has a ridiculous cliche plot (George Lucas needs to sue), and the worst characters in the history of video games (Vaan needs to die a horrible death). Apparently the people you know in the "real world" prefer pretty graphics over good gameplay and plot. That said, getting rid of random encounters was certainly a step in the right direction. As was the removal of a fixed camera.

Pre-emptive strikes are possible in recent Dragon Quest games such as Dragon Quest Monsters: Joker on the DS, which has no random encounters. Gameplay in the Dragon Quest series is always turn based, but does have some variety in that depending on what you are playing. To use DQM:J as an example again, you select tactics patterns and combination attacks for every member of your party before the turn begins. Sort of hard to describe, but it's an interesting unique system.

And again, if you are going to add in more games, how about games like Baten Kaitos with card based battle systems? Or Tales, with active time linear motion battle systems. There is tons of variety in RPG gameplay.



naznatips said:
ArtznCraphs said:

Final Fantasy games are different in terms of setting, not in gameplay or interaction. It's go into battle screen, order off a menu. Scant NPC interaction, no choice of going for or against a particular action, no thief skills usable outside of combat, no pre emptive attacks. Same as Dragon Quest. Same damn thing since Dragon Warrior and Phantasy Star. FF12 was a step forward in some ways, but it's poo-pooed by the supposed fanbase on the internet, even though every adult JRPG fan I know of in the real world thinks it's the best thing to happen to the series in a long time. Why should the genre even progress when it's fanbase wants FF7 everytime.

And if you're going to include Kingdom Hearts, you might as well include Deus Ex. In Deus Ex your performance and options and even the story itself are effected by numbers and character interactions to a FAR greater degree than Kingdom Hearts, or any SquareEnix game for that matter. Not to mention it's infinitely more immersive than any of the so called traditional RPGs on either side.

But I do agree that WRPGs need a serious injection of art and style.



Very few FF games share an identical combat system. While it's true they share a similar combat system, you are comparing within series. Many FF games let you completely customize the class of your character, and don't limit you to the pre-defined classes people seem to think they do.

FFXII is panned by fans because it's ridiculously easy (I rarely even picked up the controller in battle), has a ridiculous cliche plot (George Lucas needs to sue), and the worst characters in the history of video games (Vaan needs to die a horrible death). Apparently the people you know in the "real world" prefer pretty graphics over good gameplay and plot. That said, getting rid of random encounters was certainly a step in the right direction. As was the removal of a fixed camera.

Pre-emptive strikes are possible in recent Dragon Quest games such as Dragon Quest Monsters: Joker on the DS, which has no random encounters. Gameplay in the Dragon Quest series is always turn based, but does have some variety in that depending on what you are playing. To use DQM:J as an example again, you select tactics patterns and combination attacks for every member of your party before the turn begins. Sort of hard to describe, but it's an interesting unique system.

And again, if you are going to add in more games, how about games like Baten Kaitos with card based battle systems? Or Tales, with active time linear motion battle systems. There is tons of variety in RPG gameplay.


 Just one question, if there is variety in JRPGs, then why are people saying very few ever actually break the mold?  FPS seems to have the same problem.  The only FPS released last year that seemed to break the mold was Bioshock.  Does that mean that people aren't going to buy Call of Duty 4 or Halo 3? No. In fact, COD4 and Halo 3 were among the bestselling games released in 2007 and were reviewed really well.