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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - 360 can be the rpg console of 2008

naznatips on 28 January 2008
Riachu said:

Just one question, if there is variety in JRPGs, then why are people saying very few ever actually break the mold? FPS seems to have the same problem. The only FPS released last year that seemed to break the mold was Bioshock. Does that mean that people aren't going to buy Call of Duty 4 or Halo 3? No. In fact, COD4 and Halo 3 were among the bestselling games released in 2007 and were reviewed really well.


Most people who claim no variety in JRPGs don't play them much, if at all.  That doesn't stop those people from criticizing them though... if you want specific examples of radically different JRPGs, I would be happy to present you with them, although I have already mentioned a few...



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ArtznCraphs on 28 January 2008
naznatips said:
ArtznCraphs said:

Final Fantasy games are different in terms of setting, not in gameplay or interaction. It's go into battle screen, order off a menu. Scant NPC interaction, no choice of going for or against a particular action, no thief skills usable outside of combat, no pre emptive attacks. Same as Dragon Quest. Same damn thing since Dragon Warrior and Phantasy Star. FF12 was a step forward in some ways, but it's poo-pooed by the supposed fanbase on the internet, even though every adult JRPG fan I know of in the real world thinks it's the best thing to happen to the series in a long time. Why should the genre even progress when it's fanbase wants FF7 everytime.

And if you're going to include Kingdom Hearts, you might as well include Deus Ex. In Deus Ex your performance and options and even the story itself are effected by numbers and character interactions to a FAR greater degree than Kingdom Hearts, or any SquareEnix game for that matter. Not to mention it's infinitely more immersive than any of the so called traditional RPGs on either side.

But I do agree that WRPGs need a serious injection of art and style.



Very few FF games share an identical combat system.  While it's true they share a similar combat system, you are comparing within series.  Many FF games let you completely customize the class of your character, and don't limit you to the pre-defined classes people seem to think they do. 

FFXII is panned by fans because it's ridiculously easy (I rarely even picked up the controller in battle), has a ridiculous cliche plot (George Lucas needs to sue), and the worst characters in the history of video games (Vaan needs to die a horrible death). Apparently the people you know in the "real world" prefers pretty graphics over good gameplay and plot.  That said, getting rid of random encounters was certainly a step in the right direction. 

Pre-emptive strikes are possible in recent Dragon Quest games such as Dragon Quest Monsters: Joker on the DS, which has no random encounters.   Gameplay variety in the Dragon Quest series is always turn based, but does have a lot of variety in that depending on what you are playing.  To use DQM:J as an example again, you select tactics patterns and combination attacks for every member of your party before the turn begins.  Sort of hard to describe, but it's an interesting unique system.

And again, if you are going to add in more games, how about games like Baten Kaitos with card based battle systems?  Or Tales, with active time linear motion battle systems.  There is tons of variety in RPG gameplay.


Final Fantasy has still been go into battle mode, order off menu.  I'm not commenting on class customization, though thieves still cannot  operate outside of battle mode, mages can't go throw a fireball into a room full of enemies before combat begins, healers can't buff before combat begins, etc.  On the other hand, the FF job system is still my favorite mechanic in all of the genre.

FFXII isn't any easier than the series normally is, which is very.  It's that in FFXII the work is done before the fight, which is not any less demanding , or more difficult, than ordering off of a menu.  Plus I have the choice not to use gambits at all and can issue commands on the fly, which ramps the up the pressure  beyond the series norm.   The other games have had no less ridiclous, overwrought anime fan-fiction plots.  Lets not pretend that any of these games are accomplished writing or storytelling.  FXII had as good gameplay and plot as can be expected of this series, and the plot was less eye rolling than the normal dewy claptrap.   Wakka has to be one of the most annoying, hideously designed characters there is, and FFX is the worse for it, other than that the series has seen better days, and I don't meen FVII which in terms of character personality was a huge step down from FFVI.

At any rate if I want that kind of experience, I find the ShinMegaTen games to be more challenging on all fronts

And George Lucas needs to sue quite a few game devs as his influence is all over gaming, not least of all RPGs.

At any rate, I'm not against JRPGs; it's pretty much the bulk of what I played 8bit through PS1, but I am against the idea that they are somehow the real deal and WRPGs are not, when WRPG detractors can't muster examples going back further than Oblivion.   You can't pull that shit with me



Riachu on 28 January 2008
naznatips said:
Riachu said:

Just one question, if there is variety in JRPGs, then why are people saying very few ever actually break the mold? FPS seems to have the same problem. The only FPS released last year that seemed to break the mold was Bioshock. Does that mean that people aren't going to buy Call of Duty 4 or Halo 3? No. In fact, COD4 and Halo 3 were among the bestselling games released in 2007 and were reviewed really well.


Most people who claim no variety in JRPGs don't play them much, if at all. That doesn't stop those people from criticizing them though... if you want specific examples of radically different JRPGs, I would be happy to present you with them, although I have already mentioned a few...


 Persona would probably be among the examples, right?



 

http://www.youtube.com/user/InvaderZimGuy1?feature=mhum

naznatips on 28 January 2008
ArtznCraphs said:

Final Fantasy has still been go into battle mode, order off menu. I'm not commenting on class customization, though thieves still cannot operate outside of battle mode, mages can't go throw a fireball into a room full of enemies before combat begins, healers can't buff before combat begins, etc.

FFXII isn't any easier than the series normally is, which is very. It's that in FFXII the work is done before the fight, which is not any less demanding , or more difficult, than ordering off of a menu. Plus I have the choice not to use gambits at all and can issue commands on the fly, which ramps the up the pressure beyond the series norm. The other games have had no less ridiclous, overwrought anime fan-fiction plots. Lets not pretend that any of these games are accomplished writing or storytelling. FXII had as good gameplay and plot as can be expected of this series, and the plot was less eye rolling than the normal dewy claptrap. Wakka has to be one of the most annoying, hideously designed characters there is, and FFX is the worse for it, other than that the series has seen better days, and I don't meen FVII which in terms of character personality was a huge step down from FFVI.

At any rate if I want that kind of experience, I find the ShinMegaTen games to be more challenging on all fronts

And George Lucas needs to sue quite a few game devs as his influence is all over gaming, not least of all RPGs.

At any rate, I'm not against JRPGs; it's pretty much the bulk of what I played 8bit through PS1, but I am against the idea that they are somehow the real deal and WRPGs are not, when WRPG detractors can't muster examples going back further than Oblivion. You can't pull that shit with me


Oh don't get me wrong. I don't think FFX, FFVII, or FFVIII were much better than FFXII, if any. In fact, I hate FFVII. IMO it's the day the series died. That said, I love FFIX, and I think it had brilliant design, character development and a pretty good plot. Gameplay wasn't great in IX, but it was pretty good and it was overall a much better tham than the other 3D FFs. It's what FF should have been in 3D, and it's sad that the series has never managed anything else close to it.

Also, you and I seem to share nearly identical opinions on the two genres. I pointed out specifically that I do not dislike WRPGs, nor consider them inherintly inferior to JRPGs. I just think it's stupid when people claim they have more variety, which they don't. Not that it necessarily makes them not fun... to the contrary, I think some of the "variety" that's been added to JRPGs like FFVII and FFXII has taken away the fun. WRPGs are not bad, and I like many of them, especially Bioware's. I just hate freaking Bethesda. Most boring games I've ever played.



dante on 28 January 2008

i think this forum went of track



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darconi on 28 January 2008

I honestly think WRPG's are more of action/adventure games that they added a few stats or upgrade abilities.



ArtznCraphs on 28 January 2008
naznatips said:
ArtznCraphs said:

Final Fantasy has still been go into battle mode, order off menu. I'm not commenting on class customization, though thieves still cannot operate outside of battle mode, mages can't go throw a fireball into a room full of enemies before combat begins, healers can't buff before combat begins, etc.

FFXII isn't any easier than the series normally is, which is very. It's that in FFXII the work is done before the fight, which is not any less demanding , or more difficult, than ordering off of a menu. Plus I have the choice not to use gambits at all and can issue commands on the fly, which ramps the up the pressure beyond the series norm. The other games have had no less ridiclous, overwrought anime fan-fiction plots. Lets not pretend that any of these games are accomplished writing or storytelling. FXII had as good gameplay and plot as can be expected of this series, and the plot was less eye rolling than the normal dewy claptrap. Wakka has to be one of the most annoying, hideously designed characters there is, and FFX is the worse for it, other than that the series has seen better days, and I don't meen FVII which in terms of character personality was a huge step down from FFVI.

At any rate if I want that kind of experience, I find the ShinMegaTen games to be more challenging on all fronts

And George Lucas needs to sue quite a few game devs as his influence is all over gaming, not least of all RPGs.

At any rate, I'm not against JRPGs; it's pretty much the bulk of what I played 8bit through PS1, but I am against the idea that they are somehow the real deal and WRPGs are not, when WRPG detractors can't muster examples going back further than Oblivion. You can't pull that shit with me


Oh don't get me wrong. I don't think FFX, FFVII, or FFVIII were much better than FFXII, if any. In fact, I hate FFVII. IMO it's the day the series died. That said, I love FFIX, and I think it had brilliant design, character development and a pretty good plot. Gameplay wasn't great in IX, but it was pretty good and it was overall a much better tham than the other 3D FFs. It's what FF should have been in 3D, and it's sad that the series has never managed anything else close to it.

Also, you and I seem to share nearly identical opinions on the two genres. I pointed out specifically that I do not dislike WRPGs, nor consider them inherintly inferior to JRPGs. I just think it's stupid when people claim they have more variety, which they don't. Not that it necessarily makes them not fun... to the contrary, I think some of the "variety" that's been added to JRPGs like FFVII and FFXII has taken away the fun. WRPGs are not bad, and I like many of them, especially Bioware's. I just hate freaking Bethesda. Most boring games I've ever played.

And we arrive at complete agreement, especially about FFIX.  And I have to say that the learning abilities through equipment was something that really appealed to me. Just a classic FF mechanic.  The World Map was the best of the lot, as was the art.  IMO, Square and JRPGs in general hit a peak during the PS1 days.  I mean you can't beat FFIX, Vagrant Story, LUnar:SSC, Lunar Blue, Suikoden 1 and 2, Chrono Cross, etc.

And in the name of equality, traditional WRPGs peaked in the days of the Infinitey Engine (Baldur's Gate 2, Fallout 2, Planescape: Torment)

And Morrowind makes a pretty damn good FP stealth game.  Lots of places to break into and containers to lockpick.  Nowhere near Deus Ex, and it fails in combat and magic.

 



Legend11 on 28 January 2008

It's pretty obvious that the 360 is going to be the console to own for WRPGs since what happened with PC FPSs coming to consoles is now starting to happen with WRPGs. 

For example there was this press release about two new RPGs coming to PC/360:

dtp announces new RPGs at Leipzig Games Convention press conference – Broaden impact of adventure games worldwide

"Hamburg/Leipzig, Germany: August 23, 2007–dtp entertainment AG the Hamburg/Germany-based publisher today announced at its press conference at the Leipzig Games Convention 2007. That the company is taking a more important role in the international games business.

Two major announcements mark the course to an expanding portfolio covering multiple genres. Being released in 2009, two new million dollar development budget RPG productions are going to await the gamers’ interest: One of them, an action RPG, is being developed by the Frankfurt/Germany-based team Deck 13, which earned international acclaim for its adventure game releases“Ankh” and“Jack Keane”. The second RPG project is being developed by a well known Belgian team. Both games are being released on PC as well as on Xbox 360. Further details will be announced in the upcoming weeks."

Add to that the fact that CD Projeck is rumored to be porting The Witcher over to the 360 (they had a job ad for a 360 programmer) and another PC developer 10tacle is bringing Elveon to the 360 as well.  Add to that Mass Effect 2 and 3, Fallout 3, Jade Empire 2 (heavily rumored), Fable 2, Knights of the Old Republic 3 (heavily rumored), Too Human, and others and it makes a pretty compelling lineup. 

As far as JRPGs though the 360 will likely end up getting slightly less than the PS3 and significantly less than the Wii.  The reason being RPGs are selling in enough numbers to justify the development costs of the 360 and PS3.  It's likely though that the 360 will get some very good exclusives simply because Microsoft will continue to pay for them as they still try to gain marketshare and mindshare in Japan.

So it'll likely go down like this:

WRPGs  360 > PS3 >>> Wii
JRPGs    Wii >>> PS3 > 360

Still though that's a lot better for the 360 than during the Xbox 1's lifetime.



ArtznCraphs on 28 January 2008
darconi said:
I honestly think WRPG's are more of action/adventure games that they added a few stats or upgrade abilities.

And you are honestly wrong.  WRPGs are often so bogged down in stats and numbers it's ridiculous



naznatips on 28 January 2008
ArtznCraphs said:

And we arrive at complete agreement, especially about FFIX. And I have to say that the learning abilities through equipment was something that really appealed to me. Just a classic FF mechanic. The World Map was the best of the lot, as was the art. IMO, Square and JRPGs in general hit a peak during the PS1 days. I mean you can't beat FFIX, Vagrant Story, LUnar:SSC, Lunar Blue, Suikoden 1 and 2, Chrono Cross, etc.

And in the name of equality, traditional WRPGs peaked in the days of the Infinitey Engine (Baldur's Gate 2, Fallout 2, Planescape: Torment)

And Morrowind makes a pretty damn good FP stealth game. Lots of places to break into and containers to lockpick. Nowhere near Deus Ex, and it fails in combat and magic.



Well, I prefered a lot of Square's 2D work. Especially Chrono Trigger and FFVI, but I definitely liked the games you just mentioned. Although, while it was a good game, Chrono Cross really lacked the atmosphere of Chrono Trigger.

And yeah, I just couldn't get over the combat systems of Morrowind and Oblivion. Oblivion was much worse though. Not only did it have a really bad combat system, but it added to it a gigantic and practically empty world just to give the illusion of unique content, when in fact it was mostly repetitive and completely lacked variety.  That, and making things overly complex doesn't make them good...