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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Hypocrisy on vgchartz. Gameplay is not a subjective topic but Presentation is.

happydolphin on 09 March 2013
Marucha said:
happydolphin said:

Of course this is my opinion, and my opinion's argument is that people who say "Art is subjective" are using that phrase incorrectly. There is a lot of theory behind art (which I have not learned myself) and I know that there is a measure of formality to art as well, so since that was my argument and my point, you flailing your diploma or whatever it is you have to reduce the credibility of my post is nothing more than snobbism, imho.

Wow, that got personal really fast.

Forget it.

Did you expect me to be nice about that?



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happydolphin on 09 March 2013
RolStoppable said:
d21lewis said:
I only read the OP and I don't know what happened in the Gunman Clive thread. I just wanted to say (without creating a thread) that Tomb Raider is the best looking game I've ever played (I'm no PC gamer).

The gist of the Gunman Clive thread is that happydolphin praised that game, moreno called him out for his usual spitting ritual on NSMB, happydolphin said that moreno should consider for a moment that he (happydolphin) was in a better position to judge (after moreno admitted that presentation was a gimmick in his eyes), Rol called happydolphin a snob.

You only have eyes for Lara, so I don't think you are in a position to judge the game's overall graphics fairly.

Fixed.



MARCUSDJACKSON on 09 March 2013
happydolphin said:
Marucha said:
happydolphin said:

Of course this is my opinion, and my opinion's argument is that people who say "Art is subjective" are using that phrase incorrectly. There is a lot of theory behind art (which I have not learned myself) and I know that there is a measure of formality to art as well, so since that was my argument and my point, you flailing your diploma or whatever it is you have to reduce the credibility of my post is nothing more than snobbism, imho.

Wow, that got personal really fast.

Forget it.

Did you expect me to be nice about that?

ever heard of the moral i high ground/road?



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Normando on 09 March 2013

I've looked through your other thread. Not only are you a snob, but you're an unpleasant snob. Your opinions or "tastes" are no better than anyone else's. The only difference is you don't seem to handle it well when people disagree with you or get annoyed about you pissing and moaning about the same thing all of the time.

Moderated,

-Mr Khan



richardhutnik on 09 March 2013
happydolphin said:

The hypocritical trend I've found in this forum is that when people talk about gameplay, it's all fair game. There's no question about it being YOUR  opinion, or about it just being subjective. People will consider game slike NSMB as the holy grail of gameplay and everyone's okay with that.

But what happens when we talk about presentation, graphical style, graphics, music, cadence, plot, characters. Suddenly it all becomes subjective. Suddently when saying that one game lacks in that department, you become some kind of a high-class snob.

So when someone reasonably states that NSMB as a series has absolutely no value when it comes to excellence in presentation, suddenly he is speaking out of opinion, is a basher, a troll and a snob.

 

I'd like anyone who is also sick of this mentality to voice their opinions on it. Yes, Rol and Moreno, if you think this is a response to your behavior in my gunman clive thread, you are correct, I'm actually pretty irate right now.

It would depend on what is being discussed.  If you want to talk about art style, and so on, that is very subjective.  Gameplay is more objective, at least as far as controls, AI and whatnot.  Of course, there is genres that people may not like, which again is a subjective thing.  Pretty much one can point out if a game has really bad controls or not.



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Jay520 on 09 March 2013
happydolphin said:
Jay520 said:
happydolphin said:
Jay520 said:
Those classes are to learn the mechanics and components of music and the visual arts. They also help to equip students to express themselves via art and to read other people's art. That doesn't make the quality of art or music objective.

I'm not sure what you mean by saying gameplay and presentation are bound together. Two games can have the same gameplay yet have vastly different presentations with neither of them being objectively superior.

Two games could have vastly different gameplay with the same presentation with neither of them being objectively superior what's your point?



Thanks for proving that gameplay and presentation are not bound together.


Thanks for proving that you completely missed my point. "Gameplay is an art so it is bound to the same rules as presentation." I didn't say they were bound to one another, I said they were bound to the same rules (when it comes to subjectivity and objectivity).


Gameplay is an art? I disagree. You could perhaps make that argument for a few rare games out there, particular from Indies. But for most games, that's not the case, especially for games where action gameplay is the main vehicle for entertainment.

And you still haven't demonstrated how art can be objectively qualified. All you've shown is that there are classes about art. So what?

F0X on 09 March 2013

I think you won't be labeled as a snob or troll (as much) if you stagger out the releases of your NSMB discussion threads. Obviously Nintendo is setting a bad example for you.



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MDMAlliance on 09 March 2013
happydolphin said:

But what happens when we talk about presentation, graphical style, graphics, music, cadence, plot, characters. Suddenly it all becomes subjective. Suddently when saying that one game lacks in that department, you become some kind of a high-class snob.

So when someone reasonably states that NSMB as a series has absolutely no value when it comes to excellence in presentation, suddenly he is speaking out of opinion, is a basher, a troll and a snob.


I think it's always subjective, and there are no measurements when it comes to "presentation."  

I think even the "perfect game" can be said to "lack excellence in presentation."  It is purely opinion based.


Look at how art is, and how it is judged.  All subjective, as you can even consider a canvas with paint splashed on it as art.  Some wouldn't.  A hyper-realistic drawing can be seen as trash, something that isn't artistic.  Others would disagree and look at something that SEEMS measurable, such as the precision it was drawn with.  However, even that is subjective to the eyes of the beholder.  




F0X on 09 March 2013

I think we're better off discussing the intentions behind NSMB's stylistic choices as opposed to the quality of the art. Then we could form opinions of quality based on how well the game's art succeeds in its purpose.



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kain_kusanagi on 10 March 2013
Mazty said:
kain_kusanagi said:
Mazty said:
happydolphin said:

The hypocritical trend I've found in this forum is that when people talk about gameplay, it's all fair game. There's no question about it being YOUR  opinion, or about it just being subjective. People will consider game slike NSMB as the holy grail of gameplay and everyone's okay with that.

But what happens when we talk about presentation, graphical style, graphics, music, cadence, plot, characters. Suddenly it all becomes subjective. Suddently when saying that one game lacks in that department, you become some kind of a high-class snob.

So when someone reasonably states that NSMB as a series has absolutely no value when it comes to excellence in presentation, suddenly he is speaking out of opinion, is a basher, a troll and a snob.

 

I'd like anyone who is also sick of this mentality to voice their opinions on it. Yes, Rol and Moreno, if you think this is a response to your behavior in my gunman clive thread, you are correct, I'm actually pretty irate right now.

Oh I like to argue that gameplay isn't subjective. I also have one of the worst moderation reputations on this site. Go figure why the site has therefore ended up as the site you describe.

If gameplay isn't subjective than why do some people love GTA and others don't. Why do some prefer JRPGs to WRPGs? Why do some people like shooters and others only play slashers?

Now, with that said, a broken game is a broken game, that's not subjective. Just like bad acting is bad acting. But a game with perfectly playable gameplay can be enjoyed by one person and found boring by another. Just like a good drama can be riveting to one persona and put someone else to sleep.

Gameplay design is just as subjective as sound and art design are. For example I don't like button mashers like God of War. The gameplay just doesn't appeal to me. I don't think the God of War games are garbage just because I don't enjoy them. The gameplay is top quality for people who like button mashers. I just don't like button mashers.

 

There's gameplay, then there is genres. 

Some people may enjoy GTA, but objectively everyone can comment about the gameplay. If the cars handle like shit with poor AI, the gameplay will be bad regardless of if you like the actual genre or not. 

Right, that's what I said. A broken game is a broken game. I'm not saying that's subjective at all. I'm saying that what one person considers compelling gameplay another considers unappealing. I may have given bad examples. Even if two people like the same genre they can disagree about the quality of a game's gameplay in that genre.

Now, it's very possible that I'm not understanding this thread completely. It seems like this thread is the result of an argument that started in another thread. I don't know what the origin of this discussion is. I'm just commenting on the term gameplay. To me the word means everything interactive about the game. I don't just consider the word to mean how well the mechanics work.