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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Hypocrisy on vgchartz. Gameplay is not a subjective topic but Presentation is.

happydolphin on 10 March 2013
AlphaCielago said:
What I don't get with you is that you are always on Mario. Why can't you go on to other 2D plattformers that Nintendo has to offer. There is DKC: R, Epic Yarn and some others. Those games has been doing perfectly fine and if you want a well-balanced game, why don't you go to the sub-genres of Mario (Paper and Mario&Luigi).

I've expressed my discontentment with Epic Yarn, and have yet to play enough of DKC:R to judge (my friend is working on that though :P).

I also didn't like certain aspects of Super Mario Sunshine and Super Mario Galaxy, I don't mean to pick on NSMB and I'll try to steer clear of that perception that's not my intention.



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happydolphin on 10 March 2013
Jay520 said:

its not the same. Physical ability is such a huge restriction that most people cannot use choreography to express themselves. But with visual mediums, no such restrictions exist, at least not as strong. If a person uses paint, graphic design, etc to express something, its much more likely that they weren't restricted by any inherent lacking in skill and let their imagination control the canvas, unlike choreography. If they do produce something, its much more likely to be their goal. If they achieved their goal and especially if a number of people enjoyed the end product, then who are you to say it was low quality? You're just shoving your opinion down other people's throat.

I'm not arguing your fundamental point because it looks like a misuse of the word hypocrisy. I'm arguing something you said later on, when you implied art was objective.

No, I fully disagree. Just take a moment to look at Youtube videos on how to draw and you'll see some of the precision it requires to draw certain things requires quite a lot of skill.

@underlined. I've argued a million times why I am skeptical about that, and it is because I doubt Nintendo have the ability to return to their roots when it comes to making worlds that actually enthrall users. Of course it is appealing to new customers and young kids, much like playskool is, but does that mean playskool is art?

Come on. Sales is simply not a satisfying argument in this conversation.



Fireforgey on 10 March 2013
happydolphin said:
AlphaCielago said:
What I don't get with you is that you are always on Mario. Why can't you go on to other 2D plattformers that Nintendo has to offer. There is DKC: R, Epic Yarn and some others. Those games has been doing perfectly fine and if you want a well-balanced game, why don't you go to the sub-genres of Mario (Paper and Mario&Luigi).

I've expressed my discontentment with Epic Yarn, and have yet to play enough of DKC:R to judge (my friend is working on that though :P).

I also didn't like certain aspects of Super Mario Sunshine and Super Mario Galaxy, I don't mean to pick on NSMB and I'll try to steer clear of that perception that's not my intention.


So if you don't like Nintendo games......WHY IN GODS NAME DO YOU PLAY THEM?  And then when you're done, why do you sit and bother us with how it wasn't tailored to your tastes?  2D Mario games are incredibly fun.  3D Mario games are just incredible.  If you look at reviews from any retailer, from Metacritic or any other website or forum, the consensus is THIS GAME IS AMAZING AND FUN.  Is NSMBWii my favorite game?  No, I think the old Marios beat it and DKC:R was way better, but I have to admit that the NSMBWii had some top notch level design, it brought back to life the 2D platformer, it brought it tens of millions of people into my favorite genre and ensured that it will continue for years and decades to come. 

The controlls are perfect, level design AA quality, difficulty perfect for people still getting into a 2D game and a sort of challenge for oldschool gamers.  AND IT CREATED THE MULTIPLAYER THAT ALMOST EVERY 2D GAME HAS COPPIED SINCE.  It is still innovating in a space that everyone thought had no more innovation left.  We've all heard your arguments and we all agree that this is getting annoying. 

 

We like the game, art style, level design, and pretty much everything else even if we don't find it perfect.  You hate the game or how it looks, whichever.  Move on, be done with it.

 

/thread



happydolphin on 10 March 2013
Fireforgey said:

So if you don't like Nintendo games......WHY IN GODS NAME DO YOU PLAY THEM?  And then when you're done, why do you sit and bother us with how it wasn't tailored to your tastes?  2D Mario games are incredibly fun.  3D Mario games are just incredible.  If you look at reviews from any retailer, from Metacritic or any other website or forum, the consensus is THIS GAME IS AMAZING AND FUN.  Is NSMBWii my favorite game?  No, I think the old Marios beat it and DKC:R was way better, but I have to admit that the NSMBWii had some top notch level design, it brought back to life the 2D platformer, it brought it tens of millions of people into my favorite genre and ensured that it will continue for years and decades to come. 

The controlls are perfect, level design AA quality, difficulty perfect for people still getting into a 2D game and a sort of challenge for oldschool gamers.  AND IT CREATED THE MULTIPLAYER THAT ALMOST EVERY 2D GAME HAS COPPIED SINCE.  It is still innovating in a space that everyone thought had no more innovation left.  We've all heard your arguments and we all agree that this is getting annoying. 

 

We like the game, art style, level design, and pretty much everything else even if we don't find it perfect.  You hate the game or how it looks, whichever.  Move on, be done with it.

 

/thread

blablablablablablabla

I've heard this a million times before and have already answered this repeatedly.



Fireforgey on 10 March 2013
happydolphin said:
Fireforgey said:

So if you don't like Nintendo games......WHY IN GODS NAME DO YOU PLAY THEM?  And then when you're done, why do you sit and bother us with how it wasn't tailored to your tastes?  2D Mario games are incredibly fun.  3D Mario games are just incredible.  If you look at reviews from any retailer, from Metacritic or any other website or forum, the consensus is THIS GAME IS AMAZING AND FUN.  Is NSMBWii my favorite game?  No, I think the old Marios beat it and DKC:R was way better, but I have to admit that the NSMBWii had some top notch level design, it brought back to life the 2D platformer, it brought it tens of millions of people into my favorite genre and ensured that it will continue for years and decades to come. 

The controlls are perfect, level design AA quality, difficulty perfect for people still getting into a 2D game and a sort of challenge for oldschool gamers.  AND IT CREATED THE MULTIPLAYER THAT ALMOST EVERY 2D GAME HAS COPPIED SINCE.  It is still innovating in a space that everyone thought had no more innovation left.  We've all heard your arguments and we all agree that this is getting annoying. 

 

We like the game, art style, level design, and pretty much everything else even if we don't find it perfect.  You hate the game or how it looks, whichever.  Move on, be done with it.

 

/thread

blablablablablablabla

I've heard this a million times before and have already answered this repeatedly.


I didn't realize I asked a question.

 

Edit:  oh yeah, those were rhetorical...Lol

 

Alright everone, all we have to do to make him stop bothering us and say "We believe in Mario, We believe in Mario, We believe in Mario" Come on, if you all join in, we can make this nuissance stop bothering us.



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Jay520 on 10 March 2013
happydolphin said:
No, I fully disagree. Just take a moment to look at Youtube videos on how to draw and you'll see some of the precision it requires to draw certain things requires quite a lot of skill.

@underlined. I've argued a million times why I am skeptical about that, and it is because I doubt Nintendo have the ability to return to their roots when it comes to making worlds that actually enthrall users. Of course it is appealing to new customers and young kids, much like playskool is, but does that mean playskool is art?

Come on. Sales is simply not a satisfying argument in this conversation.

I'm not saying it's easy to be able to draw. I'm saying it's much easier than being successful at dancing, and thus an analogy to painting or drawing should be more accurate. It should be even easier for a graphic designer who can use computer technology to help render what he wants. Thus that means the end product when you play is probably much closer to what the designer oringally planned in his head.

Forget that though because it's getting tiresome. Let's assume Nintendo did lack the ability to return to their roots; what makes the old school presentation better than newer games? That's just your opinion as far as I can tell. Show me how the older presentation is superior and you will have a point.



happydolphin on 10 March 2013

@fireforgey. Just leave.

Jay520 said:
happydolphin said:
No, I fully disagree. Just take a moment to look at Youtube videos on how to draw and you'll see some of the precision it requires to draw certain things requires quite a lot of skill.

@underlined. I've argued a million times why I am skeptical about that, and it is because I doubt Nintendo have the ability to return to their roots when it comes to making worlds that actually enthrall users. Of course it is appealing to new customers and young kids, much like playskool is, but does that mean playskool is art?

Come on. Sales is simply not a satisfying argument in this conversation.

I'm not saying it's easy to be able to draw. I'm saying it's much easier than being successful at dancing, and thus an analogy to painting or drawing should be more accurate. It should be even easier for a graphic designer who can use computer technology to help render what he wants. Thus that means the end product when you play is probably much closer to what the designer oringally planned in his head.

Forget that though because it's getting tiresome. Let's assume Nintendo did lack the ability to return to their roots; what makes the old school presentation better than newer games? That's just your opinion as far as I can tell. Show me how the older presentation is superior and you will have a point.

I've explained that in excrutiating detail in these threads: 

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=143078

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=142609

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=146565

(and others I can't find anymore)

Ultimately the guiding point is that the games are based on a "kiddy" model that uses very flashy colors to attract its audience, and that has little to do with art but more to do with moneymaking.

The 2D Mario games had been on a hiatus for many years, NSMB DS being the first after Yoshi's Island, which isn't technically but only nominally a Mario game. With that said, the changes introduced in NSMB DS were big and brought in a lot of interest from old and newer gamers alike. The problem is that as the series progressed (Wii version, 3DS version and now the U version which I have yet to play) have held onto a presentation which was already iffy with the DS iteration, rather than expanding it in the spirit of games like SMB3 or SMW, which both introduced revolutionary aspects, worlds, items and artistic design, as well as music.

Instead with NSMB the graphics are often reused between one game and another, as is the music. This already is enough to prove my point, but if I wanted to go deeper and analyze the artistic direction itself, I would still be able to argue that the DS version was a design with a lot of clichés from the get-go. Though it had the benefit of being original, the artistic design wasn't groundbreaking to start with. The repeats of that just make it worse.

EDIT: A few more threads I made that I thought could be a good reference:

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=147917

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=148846

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=154237

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=154972

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=156271

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=156764



Normando on 10 March 2013

You seem to have real trouble interacting with people. I suggest, for everyone's sake. That we let this thread die. The OP cannot be wrong. He can't handle being wrong.



happydolphin on 10 March 2013
Normando said:
You seem to have real trouble interacting with people. I suggest, for everyone's sake. That we let this thread die. The OP cannot be wrong. He can't handle being wrong.

I'd like you to leave if you have nothing other than flaming to bring to this thread.

I can be wrong and have been wrong and if someone brings a valid argument I will consider it.

Thank you for politely exiting this thread.